US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/6- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[HPDriver]

Simple: When both sides are EQUALLY mad at the result. Champagne sales spiked in LAS and PHX when that list was published and Prater said he knew it was going to be a problem the minute he saw it. Remember him, the President of the OLD union.

VNIMN

Prater knew it was going to be a problem because the east want nothing less than DOH and didn't get it.

And there was No champagne drinking out west. We were happy to see that Nicolau gave us credit for our seniority and career progression at AWA.

Unlike us, you guys were in retrograde. Fourteen year pilots on furlough, others flying RJ's, and no future to speak of at all.

No, we weren't happy, just relieved you didn't get your way.

 

[Barrister]

Prater knew it was going to be a problem because the east want nothing less than DOH and didn't get it.

And there was No champagne drinking out west. We were happy to see that Nicolau gave us credit for our seniority and career progression at AWA.

Unlike us, you guys were in retrograde. Fourteen year pilots on furlough, others flying RJ's, and no future to speak of at all.

No, we weren't happy, just relieved you didn't get your way.

Yea, I'm sure that's what Prater was thinking.
Over and out!

VNIIMN

 

[HPDriver]

Yea, I'm sure that's what Prater was thinking.
Over and out!

VNIIMN

Yes, that's EXACTLY was Prater was thinking.

That I know for a FACT.

VNIIMNBIWMBMOYWVFTM

 

[BoeingBoy]

Anyone can post here anytime, self evident I hope.

And I didn't claim you said otherwise. I quoted you - "your opinion simply does not matter" - and said nothing about the right to post here or your view on that.

Gone Fishing seems to think that a person's place on the list, if low, plus time served, if high, equates to not working at 'A viable company" typical DAL attitude I might add and one of the most non-sensical posts ever made on these boards.

Care to name another major airline that had 15+ year pilots on furlough and survived to talk about it?

My point was if you did not lose 5-10-15-20 years in your little merger then you ain't got skin in the game.

So End of USAPA was right - by your criteria, nycbusdriver's opinions don't count...I'll look forward to you telling him that (notice I said nothing about his right to post those opinions).

show me on the DAL/NW list where there is as big a difference as here at U/AW.

I think you've been corrected on that little bit of misinformation before...first when you claimed that there was at most 5 years difference then when you said 10-15 years.

Jim

 

[767intl]

Prater knew it was going to be a problem because the east want nothing less than DOH and didn't get it.
And there was No champagne drinking out west. We were happy to see that Nicolau gave us credit for our seniority and career progression at AWA.
Unlike us, you guys were in retrograde. Fourteen year pilots on furlough, others flying RJ's, and no future to speak of at all.
No, we weren't happy, just relieved you didn't get your way.

Driver, no one should count any chickens yet. It all comes down to the 9th, at least as far as winning in Wake's court. Let's say you win all the way including the Supreme Court. What do you have? Still no contract. No damages, because you haven't been disadvantaged. Court costs? You got to be kidding. No matter how many scholarly posts HPFA slops up on this board, he can't cite a single similar case in history where court costs were awarded. You're not going to get a contract based on NIC + Kirby. Too much downside for most of our MIGs. For me, age 65 gives me 5 more years and over $1M extra in pay and benefits, if we survive that long. Nic doesn't effect me too much. Nic, with Kirby, including 99 hours max, phased in vacation parity, minimum 250 aircraft? Now THAT effects me. A win on TA84? Vote for a pay cut AND the Nic? I don't THINK SO!

 

[HPDriver]

Driver, no one should count any chickens yet. It all comes down to the 9th, at least as far as winning in Wake's court. Let's say you win all the way including the Supreme Court. What do you have? Still no contract. No damages, because you haven't been disadvantaged. Court costs? You got to be kidding. No matter how many scholarly posts HPFA slops up on this board, he can't cite a single similar case in history where court costs were awarded. You're not going to get a contract based on NIC + Kirby. Too much downside for most of our MIGs. For me, age 65 gives me 5 more years and over $1M extra in pay and benefits, if we survive that long. Nic doesn't effect me too much. Nic, with Kirby, including 99 hours max, phased in vacation parity, minimum 250 aircraft? Now THAT effects me. A win on TA84? Vote for a pay cut AND the Nic? I don't THINK SO!

I'm smart enough not to have counted my chickens, but I have a good idea as to how many there are.

And you can drop that Supreme Court nonsense. Cleary, in LAS, stated that this is as for as the litigation was going. Not even USAPA can afford the trip to Washington DC (the chances of it being heard there are zero anyway).

As for awards, I am going to use your own advice and tell you not to count your chickens. The chances of the west being awarded damages are not to be discounted. And if the RICO 18 go after USAPA for their malicious lawsuit, you've got yourself a double whammy.

I'm still convinced that the company will eventually buy a new contract. Say what you will, but when you get east pilots alone in front of their home computers looking at a raise, you'll see a contract pass.

 

[bigbusdrvr]

Since we (DAL) keep getting dragged in...

If that 17 year F/O was at the bottom of DL's (or NW's) list, he would be at the bottom of the combined list. The fact that there could be a 17-year employee still at the bottom of a seniority list, by itself, calls the viability of that employer into question.

GF

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Delta would have had senior f/o's as well. except they learned from usairways alpa mistakes, the pilots that could left ( with their retirements) thus everyone moved up. So many that they rehired from retirement those captains till the junior shmucks could be trained...

Then those junior shmucks voted to give up their retired pilots pension because they got cash from mangmt for their accounts...

Deleted by moderator........check your message.

 

[Flippin43]

Driver, no one should count any chickens yet. It all comes down to the 9th, at least as far as winning in Wake's court. Let's say you win all the way including the Supreme Court. What do you have? Still no contract. No damages, because you haven't been disadvantaged. Court costs? You got to be kidding. No matter how many scholarly posts HPFA slops up on this board, he can't cite a single similar case in history where court costs were awarded. You're not going to get a contract based on NIC + Kirby. Too much downside for most of our MIGs. For me, age 65 gives me 5 more years and over $1M extra in pay and benefits, if we survive that long. Nic doesn't effect me too much. Nic, with Kirby, including 99 hours max, phased in vacation parity, minimum 250 aircraft? Now THAT effects me. A win on TA84? Vote for a pay cut AND the Nic? I don't THINK SO!

Mr. 767International

If this Domestic pilot might be so bold as to address you directly. I would point out that actually the actions of usapa have already "disadvantaged" a decent group of our Former America West pilots. Unless in usapaland it is an "advantage" to be Furloughed or Downgraded.

Not to mention that in FACT Judge Wake has said that Damages are accruing. That indicates to most rational folks that Damages have occurred and are accruing right now. IE the longer you all drag this out the larger the bill gets.

As a pilot prepares as best as possible for every eventuality, This lowly A-320Domestic pilot suggests you explore exactly what you are really at risk for. usapa doesn't seem to be telling many pilots. Have they told you the risk they have put the new union in by continuing the RICO suit after seham said to drop it????? Why else do we now see usapa wanting a settlement???

Flip

 

[bigbusdrvr]

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Actually , now that they are dispatched "Great Circle" frlom CLT and not over phx, it is 500 miles shorter and now longer an issue.....

Yes , evidentily, they dispatched to phx, then great circle from therre?

Seems like every airline I work for cant seem to grow up from there previous "Mecca"

 

[Barrister]

Thanks BBD, I forgot that what....2000 DAL guys took early retirement. Hey, GF where would you be if that had not happened maybe 17 years and still on the bottom. I thought it was: Better a daughter in a brothel than a son flying for Delta!!!Just a joke don't get upset dudes!!

VNIIMN

 

[Barrister]

Mr. 767International

If this Domestic pilot might be so bold as to address you directly. I would point out that actually the actions of usapa have already "disadvantaged" a decent group of our Former America West pilots. Unless in usapaland it is an "advantage" to be Furloughed or Downgraded.

Not to mention that in FACT Judge Wake has said that Damages are accruing. That indicates to most rational folks that Damages have occurred and are accruing right now. IE the longer you all drag this out the larger the bill gets.

As a pilot prepares as best as possible for every eventuality, This lowly A-320Domestic pilot suggests you explore exactly what you are really at risk for. usapa doesn't seem to be telling many pilots. Have they told you the risk they have put the new union in by continuing the RICO suit after seham said to drop it????? Why else do we now see usapa wanting a settlement???

Flip

Is is in the Court record from AW witnesses that USAPA has not delayed negotiations. It was from one of your witnesses. The transition agreement with sep.ops is why your guys got furloughed and no upgrades. Not the fault of USAPA. No damages. Get used to it. If you think NIC would have been used for furloughs without a joint contract then you have missed some of the major issues here.

VNIIMN

 

[BoeingBoy]

Don't play dumb BB just when it suit your argument.

Dumb - hardly. But I don't have to keep changing the rules to "prove" that I was right. You said that you didn't mean (say, imply, whatever) that those without "skin in the game" couldn't post and I said nothing different.

Few if any NW/DAL lost even 5 years. The poster who tried to prove otherwise was proved wrong.

Only "wrong" when you changed your statement - you originally said that there wasn't more than 5 years difference between pilots next to each other and it was shown that there was. Changing that to "few if any" doesn't make the original statement correct.

NYC does have skin in the game. His right seaters every time he flies and his position on the subject is clear, plus he has a vote.

Let me quote your criteria again - "Oh and HP let me be clear on something.......if you don't have skin in the game and a VOTE your opinion simply does not matter." Notice the word I bolded - and. By what you just said, NYC's first officers have "skin in this game", not him (as he's pointed out more than a few times). And by your words, having a vote only meets half of your criteria.

Perhaps you should have chosen your wording a little more carefully.

Please explain your biases because you clearly don't have any skin in this game and never will.

As you yourself say, anyone is free to post whatever they want (as long as it's within the board rules) so I don't have to explain squat to you.

For instance, your assertion that delays off of the gate and not re-fueling stops are the prob. on the CLT-HNL. How absurd.

You better go back and read that post again...slowly...maybe two or three times...you'll see that I said nothing about delays off the gate. But why should facts stand in your way now?

ABCDEFGHIJK

Jim

 

[Flippin43]

Is is in the Court record from AW witnesses that USAPA has not delayed negotiations. It was from one of your witnesses. The transition agreement with sep.ops is why your guys got furloughed and no upgrades. Not the fault of USAPA. No damages. Get used to it. If you think NIC would have been used for furloughs without a joint contract then you have missed some of the major issues here.

VNIIMN

Can you see the difference between delayed negotiations and negotiating to delay. When the Damages trial comes, right off the top and already public, The companies letter to the NMB about usapa delay by opening each and every section and more recently deciding to change positions on PBS and there is the usapa favorite of the web board post. Delay, Delay, Delay.........attrition is comming etc etc. How many times have we seen those type of posts.

So which is it, we want a contract right away, no delay here or you will never get a contract with the Nicolau list. You don't get to honestly claim both and one is going to get you a big bill in a Desert courtroom.


Flip

 

[traderjake]

AW had 13 airplanes in 84.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

In 2005 AW had 120 airplanes and our F/O's are not entitled to steal the jobs of the Captain's flying those 120 airplanes.

 

[HPDriver]

AW had 13 airplanes in 84. Few if any NW/DAL lost even 5 years.

You guys live in the past when you tell us how it was.

You guys live in the future when you tell us we will inherit the airline.

But you guys fail to live in the present where everything is happening.

Amazing.