US Pilot Labor Thread for the week 6/6 to 6/13

[luvn737s]

Please allow a dumb customer what may be a dumb question.

Let's say Pilot A has 13 years on the job with Airline A, and has been furloughed for 2.

Pilot B has 12 years on the job with Airline B and has been furloughed for 3 years.

Does furlough time count, and if so is it weighted? I assume DOH goes to the first day of employment, so furlough would count....then again I don't know...hence the question.

Assuming Airlines A and B merge, which one of these two would be senior? Which would be the fairest way of handling this?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

It's not a dumb question at all. The short answer is "It depends". Seniority is different from longevity. When you are on furlough, you do not accrue longevity. Fairness is in the eye of the beholder, but if both airlines were of a similar demographic (age, length of active service, etc.) then DOH would closely approximate a relative seniority integration. Where it gets sticky, is a older stagnant or contracting group merging with a faster growing younger group. Then DOH is closer to "stapling" the second group.

I hope that helps.

 

[luvn737s]

I keep hearing folks complain about the East side's 400+ upgrades, compared to the West's 40+, even though those were due to attrition on the East side. The West SHOULD NOT BE ENTITLED TO THOSE UPGRADES.

That answers my question as to the advantage of continuing this civil war.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Put people without jobs....below people with jobs. Hmmm.

LCC has NO pilots presently furloughed. Therefore, ALL time SHOULD count toward Seniority. Even if there were furloughees, when they come back, they SHOULD get their full seniority, with credit for ALL TIME WORKING FOR THE COMPANY. Of course, they couldn't displace someone from their job, but as openings occurred, they should get full seniority rights. Again, it's done that way everywhere I know of, except ALPA carriers.

With conditions being what they are, some West pilots may get to argue this case pretty soon.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Didn't the East belong to ALPA? Were the policies that were in place new to you? Conditions and Restrictions to satisfy and older group? So you want to penalize younger pilots to benefit the careers of only aged EAST? USAPA for ALL Airways pilots.....MUST SHOW AARP CARD
If a union only means seniority to you..................

The policies were not new. The "Guidelines" were. I still can't reconcile the difference between policy and guideline. You can have one or the other, just not one being both. So which is it? Is it ALPA merger policy? Or ALPA merger guidelines? What does the Constitution and ByLaws say? Younger less senior pilots will move up in due course. If you really think that everyone will be able to go to 65 then I have some land for sale. You'll just have to wait a little longer for your deserved advancement. Just not at my expense.

Just remember one thing. You too will carry an AARP card one day if you so choose. That's a fact. In addition, they have great discounts.

Union? Seniority is not the only thing. But in this case, why have one that is so convoluted it ceased to be a union. Oh thats right. We have a new one now. USAPA.

 

[markkus757]

If you're still looking for new callsigns, I was thinking of something crappy, something like blue plate, blue light, cheap skate, something management can be proud of.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Please allow a dumb customer what may be a dumb question.

Let's say Pilot A has 13 years on the job with Airline A, and has been furloughed for 2.

Pilot B has 12 years on the job with Airline B and has been furloughed for 3 years.

Does furlough time count, and if so is it weighted? I assume DOH goes to the first day of employment, so furlough would count....then again I don't know...hence the question.

Assuming Airlines A and B merge, which one of these two would be senior? Which would be the fairest way of handling this?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Here's another way it can be considered. DOH is pretty cut-and-dry. The date you show up for your first pilot indoc class is your DOH and it stays unchanged forever.

What some are calling longevity is better thought of as LOS, or Length of Service. If you show up as a newhire and work for a year, get furloughed for ten, when you return you have a DOH that shows eleven years, but your LOS is one.

Putting together a DOH list is simple. Look at the calendar and it's done. Making adjustments for LOS is also fairly simple, but an LOS list would reflect a very different ordering from a DOH list. Part of the problem for the east pilot regarding the Nicolau list is that many east pilots should have been placed higher up by either criteria, either DOH or LOS, but were robbed of many years by an arbitrator who, from its appearances, put together the list completely capriciously making NO allowance at all for LOS.

IMHO, moving forward should go by DOH with restrictions (maybe based on percentages) to protect any growth and attrition from both sides. Moving backward (furloughs) should go strictly by LOS. That opinion, by the way, makes enemies for me in both camps. But I believe something like that is the closest to what USAPA will propose.

Now, of course, the westies will immediately attack with their well-worn "final and binding" arguments. They will soon find out that what is "final and binding" as ALPA policy has no standing here anymore. Some easties with lots of DOH years, but few LOS years, will attack me because it would mean a furlough before some west-hire who has a DOH years after him/her. No one hired after about 1984 is ever going to be happy because there is no perfect solution; this is just the way airline integrations have always worked. In most cases, the only pilot who is satisfied is the pilot with seniority number 1.

 

[luvn737s]

Nicolau didn't bother, he just stapled the furloughees to the bottom. And ALPA simply played the Pontius Pilot routine.

Not exactly. Pilate gave the mob what they wanted. ALPA was far more complicit with the east by dragging it's feet in hoping it could present a contract that would de-fuse the Nicolau decision.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Not exactly. Pilate gave the mob what they wanted. ALPA was far more complicit with the east by dragging it's feet in hoping it could present a contract that would de-fuse the Nicolau decision.

They had to. It never would have been ratified by the East. Even the diehard ALPA guys on the East side knew that.

I actually thought that the reference to "Pontius Pilot" (sic) was a Freudian slip.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

That answers my question as to the advantage of continuing this civil war.

Or disadvantage as the case may be.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

ALPA was far more complicit with the east by dragging it's feet in hoping it could present a contract that would de-fuse the Nicolau decision.

There was/is no contract that could be presented that would "De-fuse" Nicolau. Thinking otherwise would deny reality.

 

[CactusFlyr]

LCC has NO pilots presently furloughed. Therefore, ALL time SHOULD count toward Seniority. Even if there were furloughees, when they come back, they SHOULD get their full seniority, with credit for ALL TIME WORKING FOR THE COMPANY. Of course, they couldn't displace someone from their job, but as openings occurred, they should get full seniority rights. Again, it's done that way everywhere I know of, except ALPA carriers.

With conditions being what they are, some West pilots may get to argue this case pretty soon.

Yes the furloughes are all back, but they should also be the first to go if the spiral continues.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Not exactly. Pilate gave the mob what they wanted. ALPA was far more complicit with the east by dragging it's feet in hoping it could present a contract that would de-fuse the Nicolau decision.

My pun intended.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Yes the furloughes are all back, but they should also be the first to go if the spiral continues.

I, for one, disagree. I hope the USAPA negotiating team does, as well. Longevity time should be the determining factor for furloughs for all pilots presently on the property or entitled to be (can't forget mil and med leaves).

No, I've never been furloughed.

You know, back in the 60s and 70s, it was pretty common for pilots to be furloughed during the "slow months" for about their first five years with any company. Not practical to do that now, with all the different plane types and training requirements.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

My pun intended.

Oh, you mean "Pontius Prater". LOL. Now I get it. (no blasphemy intended).

 

[Piedmont1984]

I agree. It should be DOH, with CR&F's, when we are moving forward or static - and LOS when we are moving backward or furloughing. Whoever had his/her company ticket punched first is numero uno - and last is last. Fair and easy. And the CR&F's maintain each group's pre merger reasonable expectations.

Why would a young guy just starting his career have a problem with that? Unless he is a young guy who has bought into the myspace, facebook, look at me, I want it all now generation and philosophy.

To which my answer is - you can have my seniority if you wish - you just have to come and take it from me.