US Pilot Labor Thread for the week 6/6 to 6/13

[checksix]

Litigation is now underway as expected, and now it is apparent that USAPA will try to force additional litigation in an attempt to bankrupt and distract us. We need your donations to help ensure that does not happen. If the majority of AWA pilots donate their ALPA Merger refund to AWAPPA, we stand to take in more money that USAPA will. With the UAL deal sidelined, AWAPPA will need to act aggressively in order to protect your legal interests - we cannot do that without your monetary assistance.

A donation in the amount of $150 x 1800 pilots and this equates to what?

Litigation is underway? Is this some sort of double secret litigation that only AWAPPA knows about???

That sure is not a confidence boosting update for AWAPPA members......

 

[Flyz4food]

You sound as though you were never part of a pilot group in which some of your fellow pilots were furloughed. Glad I never had to count on people like you to watch my six.

Once again for the umpteenth time, it isn't over till it's over, nothing is binding in this life except death and taxes, the award was an aberration, which is why it sits and collects dust. Finally, to use your own logic, many would say USAPA is the final outcome - so what happens when the westyz don't like the final outcome? They throw a temper tantrum. They enter a state of denial. They send sh%t through the mail. They call fellow pilots scabs.

This too shall pass.

ARBITRATION say it slow....spell it slow and not Aberration. Its based on the same laws and agreements the taxes you mentioned came from.

I have watched fellow pilots/ friends get furloughed and recalled. I have never thrown anyone under a bus or bent another over a chair as you are attempting to do to protect your end.

I bet it was fine for many at one time to send shite through the USPS as long as the recipient was American.

 

[Piedmont1984]

ARBITRATION say it slow....spell it slow and not Aberration. Its based on the same laws and agreements the taxes you mentioned came from.

I have watched fellow pilots/ friends get furloughed and recalled. I have never thrown anyone under a bus or bent another over a chair as you are attempting to do to protect your end.

I bet it was fine for many at one time to send shite through the USPS as long as the recipient was American.

I've been here twenty four years. Just whom are you accusing of stealing another's job, and who's job - yours, or of throwing others under the bus. You need to extricate your mindset from your ALPA paradigm. We are no longer in that country.

 

[Flyz4food]

I've been here twenty four years. Just whom are you accusing of stealing another's job, and who's job - yours, or of throwing others under the bus. You need to extricate your mindset from your ALPA paradigm. We are no longer in that country.

Let's just say in this case.....this case only. You have 24 years, you are dead last. Another company comes into the mix, and the two companies effectively cease to exist. The lists have to be combined. Where do you fit in? Do you still fit in relatively last on the combined list of the two, or do you now become the middle? If the guy behind you was furloughed for 12 years and comes back, does he come in on the middle too?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Let's just say in this case.....this case only. You have 24 years, you are dead last. Another company comes into the mix, and the two companies effectively cease to exist. The lists have to be combined. Where do you fit in? Do you still fit in relatively last on the combined list of the two, or do you now become the middle? If the guy behind you was furloughed for 12 years and comes back, does he come in on the middle too?

The answer SHOULD be that everybody gets FULL CREDIT for the amount of time with the company. PERIOD. There can be reasonable protections, but why should folks that have been working at the company less than a year or two get preference over someone that has worked OVER A DECADE (in some cases almost two decades) to make the company successful (at least successful enough that some other company would need it to survive).

That's my answer. ALPA had a different one, but now their gone. Good riddance.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Well.....Two groups agreed to arbitration to determine how to bring both together. They agreed to guidelines for that determination. One of those being, no loss of jobs for those ON THE PROPERTY at the time of the merger. The decision in a "final and binding" arbitration resulted in a ratio integration of both groups.

The arbitration was mandated by ALPA merger policy. No agreement was required. "Guidelines". Whatever happened to POLICY? That is one of the reasons (Out of many) why ALPA is no longer on this property. Is that final and binding under ALPA only? I see no ratio, but a failed attempt at slotting.

The furloughed EAST pilots were able to later be called back (the west didn't have folks on furlough for many many years.)as the airline grew. Furloughed, (aka. terminated, look it up) were to ccme back to the bottom of the arbitrated list. The same bottom of an EAST seniority list and the same bottom of a West list, of course, if they had people on furlough. The bottom is still the bottom, either list, either way.

Therein lies the problem and differences of opinion. The bottom of our list was actually working at MDA. Since we agree no leap frogging is permitted, how do you justify a working pilot on both sides are not alligned together? Bottom is the bottom, right? Besides this has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum. Our opinions differ and will always differ over the status of MDA.

Anyway, some people didn't like that idea, and are now trying to usurp an arbitrated decision with DOH. DOH puts effectively all of the WEST pilots, below the pilots that have been furloughed years ago. (So, if you were flipping burgers for years, took the recall, you knew you would be on the bottom of list.) Now here is your "proof". Using DOH now, (after a mutual decision to use an arbitrator, and probably a mutual decision the neither side would have agreed to knowing it would be reneged on), leaves effectively ALL of the WEST as fodder for a soon to be announced furlough. DOH IS FURLOUGH PROTECTION FOR THE EAST. But you already knew that. Plain and simple. Smoke and mirrors.

There is no smoke and mirrors. Just the implementation of conditions and restrictions that satisfy the rest of your statement.

By disregarding the arbitration, and now using DOH, the recalled and once long furloughed EAST pilots, will TAKE the positions now vacant from the now non-working never been on furlough and on property when the merger took place WEST pilots. FURLOUGH PROTECTION FOR THE EAST PLAIN AND SIMPLE. But you already knew that.
Please justify how that is not taking another man's job. Stealing it. Tell me how you can justify someone who's been on furlough list for years, bring him back and place them ALL in front of pilots already on the property. You know that it's wrong, but you won't admit.

Nobody is taking anything. I don't want your job. But I will not let you have mine either. Nicolau really screwed the pooch by not adding proper conditions and restrictions that will satisfy an older pilot group. How do you in your mind justify keeping and older F/O in the right seat for the rest of his/her career? While younger pilots with less seniority move into those jobs that were never theirs in the first place. Oh yea, that's right, it was decided by ALPA merger policy, now as you describe as "Guidelines". You can postulate all you want, it still won't change the fact that ALPA is gone from the property. Along with its BS merger policy, now guidelines. What's the point of a union then, when it comes to seniority?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Let's just say in this case.....this case only. You have 24 years, you are dead last. Another company comes into the mix, and the two companies effectively cease to exist. The lists have to be combined. Where do you fit in? Do you still fit in relatively last on the combined list of the two, or do you now become the middle? If the guy behind you was furloughed for 12 years and comes back, does he come in on the middle too?

Lets just say that if the pilots in this industry worked for a real union, with a national seniority list - and if ALPA had acted like a real union, and instituted and implemented a national seniority list - in this case only, your question would be moot and we would still be paying ALPA dues.

DOH is simple, straightforward, fair and honest. If I was in line before you, you get behind me. It works fine in just about everything else you do in life.

What ALPA and Nicolau did was to distort this principle.

 

[Art at ISP]

Please allow a dumb customer what may be a dumb question.

Let's say Pilot A has 13 years on the job with Airline A, and has been furloughed for 2.

Pilot B has 12 years on the job with Airline B and has been furloughed for 3 years.

Does furlough time count, and if so is it weighted? I assume DOH goes to the first day of employment, so furlough would count....then again I don't know...hence the question.

Assuming Airlines A and B merge, which one of these two would be senior? Which would be the fairest way of handling this?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

 

[luvn737s]

Lets just say that if the pilots in this industry worked for a real union, with a national seniority list - and if ALPA had acted like a real union, and instituted and implemented a national seniority list - in this case only, your question would be moot and we would still be paying ALPA dues.

DOH is simple, straightforward, fair and honest. If I was in line before you, you get behind me. It works fine in just about everything else you do in life.

What ALPA and Nicolau did was to distort this principle.

The problem is that there were two lines. Unfortunately, because Parker chose to keep the USAirways name, many people forget that.

Again, the east would have had no problem keeping ALPA if Nicolau had forgotten that as well and allowed DOH to stand. There would have been plenty of, "You'll get over it" and "We've been through this before, you'll get recalled one of these days. Keep in touch now." And Beebe abd Gentile and the rest would have continued on and Bradford would have been satisfied with his impending upgrade.

But there still would be no peace.

Bradford could show some character and insist on somebody from the west (maybe an AWAPPA principal even) to sit in and provide some input on their proposed list, regardless of whether or not that person was a member of USAPA. If Bradford was the leader of ALL the USAirways pilots he would be willing to consider anything including abandoning DOH if that was the only way to unite the 2 groups.

But someone who chooses to send threatening letters and sue fellow pilots, to cower in their friendly bases rather than come west and meet the west pilots head-on and take whatever is thrown at him, to demand respect rather than earn it- clearly demonstrates his lack of character and proves how ill-equipped he is to lead this pilot group.

If he and the rest of the USAPA high command came to Phoenix and respectfully asked to meet with the leaders of AWAPPA and Leonidas, if they opened a room in the terminal in PHX just to be there to take questions, accept criticism and truly take action on matters critical to west pilots, if nothing was off the table including abandoning the DOH hardline and accepting the bulk of Nicolau, they might actually convince some people that USAPA is worth joining.

Unless there is some advantage for Bradford to continue polarizing the two pilot groups.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

What ALPA and Nicolau did was to distort this principle.

So very true. Good observation.

 

[Flyz4food]

The arbitration was mandated by ALPA merger policy. No agreement was required. "Guidelines". Whatever happened to POLICY? That is one of the reasons (Out of many) why ALPA is no longer on this property. Is that final and binding under ALPA only? I see no ratio, but a failed attempt at slotting.

Therein lies the problem and differences of opinion. The bottom of our list was actually working at MDA. Since we agree no leap frogging is permitted, how do you justify a working pilot on both sides are not alligned together? Bottom is the bottom, right? Besides this has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum. Our opinions differ and will always differ over the status of MDA.

There is no smoke and mirrors. Just the implementation of conditions and restrictions that satisfy the rest of your statement.

Nobody is taking anything. I don't want your job. But I will not let you have mine either. Nicolau really screwed the pooch by not adding proper conditions and restrictions that will satisfy an older pilot group. How do you in your mind justify keeping and older F/O in the right seat for the rest of his/her career? While younger pilots with less seniority move into those jobs that were never theirs in the first place. Oh yea, that's right, it was decided by ALPA merger policy, now as you describe as "Guidelines". You can postulate all you want, it still won't change the fact that ALPA is gone from the property. Along with its BS merger policy, now guidelines. What's the point of a union then, when it comes to seniority?

Didn't the East belong to ALPA? Were the policies that were in place new to you? Conditions and Restrictions to satisfy and older group? So you want to penalize younger pilots to benefit the careers of only aged EAST? USAPA for ALL Airways pilots.....MUST SHOW AARP CARD
If a union only means seniority to you..................

 

[Piedmont1984]

Please allow a dumb customer what may be a dumb question.

Let's say Pilot A has 13 years on the job with Airline A, and has been furloughed for 2.

Pilot B has 12 years on the job with Airline B and has been furloughed for 3 years.

Does furlough time count, and if so is it weighted? I assume DOH goes to the first day of employment, so furlough would count....then again I don't know...hence the question.

Assuming Airlines A and B merge, which one of these two would be senior? Which would be the fairest way of handling this?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Pilot A is senior - or should be - using either methodology. Now if pilot B has more active service time - lets assume pilot A was furloughed for 6 years - then it's a gray area. Both sides need to agree to a methodology to address such a situation. Nicolau didn't bother, he just stapled the furloughees to the bottom. And ALPA simply played the Pontius Pilot routine.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The problem is that there were two lines. Unfortunately, because Parker chose to keep the USAirways name, many people forget that.

Again, the east would have had no problem keeping ALPA if Nicolau had forgotten that as well and allowed DOH to stand. There would have been plenty of, "You'll get over it" and "We've been through this before, you'll get recalled one of these days. Keep in touch now." And Beebe abd Gentile and the rest would have continued on and Bradford would have been satisfied with his impending upgrade.

But there still would be no peace.

Two lines maybe, but check your ticket and see what time is stamped on it.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Pilot A is senior - or should be - using either methodology.

Time while furloughed has never counted. Time working for the company should count at 100%. Therefore, the pilot with 13 years at the company shoould be senior to the pilot with 12.

I keep hearing folks complain about the East side's 400+ upgrades, compared to the West's 40+, even though those were due to attrition on the East side. The West SHOULD NOT BE ENTITLED TO THOSE UPGRADES.

Pilots with less "longevity" with the company SHOULD be furloughed first and upgraded last, with reasonable restrictions. That's the way it's done everywhere they have a seniority based system, unless it's run by ALPA, whom, in my opinion, are a bunch of CLOWNS (sorry, didn't mean to demean the clowning profession).

 

[Flyz4food]

Pilot A is senior - or should be - using either methodology. Now if pilot B has more active service time - lets assume pilot A was furloughed for 6 years - then it's a gray area. Both sides need to agree to a methodology to address such a situation. Nicolau didn't bother, he just stapled the furloughees to the bottom. And ALPA simply played the Pontius Pilot routine.

Put people without jobs....below people with jobs. Hmmm.