US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[end_of_alpa]

Premature usapacation?

Good one!!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Oh, I saw those conditions and restrictions that "might" get in the contract. What you meant to say was that USAPA, voted in and controlled by East pilots, will give whatever protections the East pilots feel the West deserves - and that doesn't seem like much according to the USAPA supporters here.

Jim

Well you would be wrong, as usual. Your bitter laments serve only to show your lack of any truer involvment in the grand scheme of aviation and the unions within. The foam doesn't fall far from the brew.

You may think fences and restrictions wouldn't amount to much but I can assure you that there is no intent on being anything but more than reasonable. Given the circumstances, if the West could at least agree that the fundamental principle is DOH, the fences and restrictions could be liberal on cross over possibilities.

Of course, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Alas, Poor Yorick!

 

[ableoneable]

Well you would be wrong, as usual. Your bitter laments serve only to show your lack of any truer involvment in the grand scheme of aviation and the unions within. The foam doesn't fall far from the brew.

You may think fences and restrictions wouldn't amount to much but I can assure you that there is no intent on being anything but more than reasonable. Given the circumstances, if the West could at least agree that the fundamental principle is DOH, the fences and restrictions could be liberal on cross over possibilities.

Of course, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Alas, Poor Yorick!

Please back this one up. Bradford indicated that protections for the west were merely conceptual at this point in time and that they would have to be worked out "later."

He also said that there would be no elections for the first eighteen months of USAPA's reign and that all reps would be appointees. Democratic?

 

[EastUS]

Oh, I saw those conditions and restrictions that "might" get in the contract. What you meant to say was that USAPA, voted in and controlled by East pilots, will give whatever protections the East pilots feel the West deserves - and that doesn't seem like much according to the USAPA supporters here.

Jim

Nice try. I've always held that no west pilot should be displaced..period, and long ago, and now, again reiterate that thought....and your precious little Alpa has..ummm..WHAT "protections" for the east "United Alpa Brothers and Sisters" again?....and...the "reasonable Alpa Brothers and Sisters" out west are seeking WHAT "protections" for the east again? The last that I heard, there were ZERO western notions of accepting fences, or even the least obstacles towards their immediately plundering the east, under the Holy Banner of St Nic and Alpo! Do you again need to see their great "ARMY" leader's post issuing the mighty "I WANT THE CAPTAIN SEAT" BS..and the further notion of having "each and every east pilot pay for it" Oh Yeah...Alpa's just the fairest/best thing going, and we're dealing with only the most utterly reasonable "Brothers and Sisters" that any could ever want. Gimme' a freakin' break.

 

[end_of_alpa]

What facts are you basing your knowledge of support in a strike? Have you polled the West pilot group? As much as I disagree with the basic goal of USAPA, I would still not cross a picket line and I am willing to bet there are many out West who would do the same.

It surprises me though that after almost one year of name calling and unprofessional behavior from both sides, that it took the PHX roadshow for you to see the depth of the division. And by middle ground do you mean what USAPA is proposing because the deck appears a little stacked to me? :down:

And I rest my case....you don't support USAPA....therefore you don't support it if they can't come to any agreement because of what is negotiated, including a list. There will be no strike with either ALPA or USAPA because the division is too great.

The pilots hand is played and the company knows it. YOU said it, not I....the DEPTH of the division.

It's too late now. Maybe ALPA stacked the deck over the years and it simply got too corrupted. Don't blame USAPA. We want to start something NEW. It's either USAPA or NO UNION, because ALPA is the greater of the two evils; then USAPA, if you want to put it in labor terms. And it is sad that labor unions have to look at it in terms that I just expressed...the LESSER of two evils, instead of a CHOICE between the COMPANY or the UNION.

The point's I've made today is that I don't want ANYBODYS job, but WE DIDN'T DO IT....THE COMPANIES MERGED AND WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY INPUT INTO THAT PROCESS.

How sad.

 

[EastUS]

Please back this one up. Bradford indicated that protections for the west were merely conceptual at this point in time and that they would have to be worked out "later."

He also said that there would be no elections for the first eighteen months of USAPA's reign and that all reps would be appointees. Democratic?

1) Can you honestly even have the slightest fantasy that waves of east pilots are just a' tearing at the bit to move into your domiciles.....and thusly, actually want to personally have anything to do with you people? Get real, for even a moment. Having studiously offered NONE yourselves, and with the east stating that we're fine with fences and protections for you, both as a practical solution and the most equitable overall...Well..it seems that nothing will be "good enough" for you out there. Fine.

2) Yes: By electing USAPA; We're voting in those people currently in interim positions. Your supposed point?..If ANY? This has gotten far past pathetic. The west hates USAPA and is supposedly sworn to it's utter destruction, humiliation, blah blah blah, and refuses to participate in the new union in ANY way..BUT...you marvel at the concept of others actually voting, while you do nothing but stand on the sidelines and whine about not getting what you want...brilliant.

 

[ableoneable]

1) Can you honestly even have the slightest fantasy that waves of east pilots are just a' tearing at the bit to move into your domiciles.....and thusly, actually want to personally have anything to do with you people? Get real, for even a moment. Having studiously offered NONE yourselves, and with the east stating that we're fine with fences and protections for you, both as a practical solution and the most equitable overall...Well..it seems that nothing will be "good enough" for you out there. Fine.

So, because you assure me no east pilots want west positions we don't need protections. Thank you for your assurances. I feel much better now.

BTW the west was willing to offer protections to the east. The east just did not want to negotiate, until after the arbitrators decision. Even then, however, their opening position was DOH/LOS and complete furlough protection for the east at the west's expense.

2) Yes: By electing USAPA; We're voting in those people currently in interim positions. Your supposed point?..If ANY? This has gotten far past pathetic. The west hates USAPA and is supposedly sworn to it's utter destruction, humiliation, blah blah blah, and refuses to participate in the new union in ANY way..BUT...you marvel at the concept of others actually voting, while you do nothing but stand on the sidelines and whine about not getting what you want...brilliant.

I see, I have no point.

There is nothing "interim" about an eighteen month position.

How much input can a pilot have if his/her reps are appointed? I doubt that there is a recall mechanism available. What kind of participation is allowed beyond writing checks?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nice try. I've always held that no west pilot should be displaced..period, and long ago, and now, again reiterate that thought

Nice try right back.....unless you can somehow guarantee the actions of the East majority. Bradford wouldn't even say that West pilots would have the protection of their DOH if they came East. One would think at least that would be a given if DOH is such a "principle" of "unionism"? Wonder why the interim President of USAPA can't even commit to that morsel?

Maybe he added it to his list of "we'll try" protections for the West.......

Jim

 

[end_of_alpa]

Please back this one up. Bradford indicated that protections for the west were merely conceptual at this point in time and that they would have to be worked out "later."

He also said that there would be no elections for the first eighteen months of USAPA's reign and that all reps would be appointees. Democratic?

When a new labor union is started it can take several years before officers are required to be voted in....five if I remember.

It was specifically placed in the C&B to make the elections happen no later than 18 months and concurring elections for the reps.

It WILL be democratic as time flies....nothing nefarious or unusual about this in the grand scheme of RLA.

As far as "protections", it all depends on how much the West wants to participate. Take the scortched earth attitude and I would say that they'll do the best under the circumstances.

 

[ableoneable]

It WILL be democratic as time flies....nothing nefarious or unusual about this in the grand scheme of RLA.

As far as "protections", it all depends on how much the West wants to participate. Take the scortched earth attitude and I would say that they'll do the best under the circumstances.

Okay so it will be democratic, later. For now, while a new contract and a "new" seniority list is negotiated, it will be an appointed leadership answerable to no-one.

I see, sounds vastly superior to ALPA.

Bradford said west protections were at the conceptual stage. You say they are dependent on the west's level of participation. Since there will be no elections I assume that by participation you mean dues and assessment payments. If the west agrees to this "participation" we will get "consideration" from USAPA. Wow, sign my ass up.

If you are an USAPA officer that kind of statement alone is grounds for a DFR suit.

 

[EastUS]

So, because you assure me no east pilots want west positions we don't need protections. Thank you for your assurances. I feel much better now.

It gets a wee bit "emotional" around my keyboard at times, and I didn't mean to cavalierly dismiss your concerns. The concerns over protection are entirely valid, and protection must be insured. It's my earnest belief that fences and protections for the west MUST be put in place, or any notions of even supposed eventual solidarity fly out the window. I believe that the vast majority of people out east are of like mind. I can only directly speak for my own thinking and how I intend to express my feelings and vote. The usage of DOH, without protections that ensure that no west pilot would/could be displaced would be an utter disaster for all of us, and a travesty against any/all union precepts. It's my belief that any/all west pilots should be able to bid any position they can hold via DOH, regardless of base. I can see but one sticking point, and I"ll offer the theoretical situation wherein a west captain bids east, and displaces a junior east person, at the lowest open captain's position. Could/should that east pilot then be able to bid west and displace a west pilot? I think not.

PS: "I assume that by participation you mean dues and assessment payments." Negative..that was no part of my meaning. I'd suggest putting forth your thoughts and concerns directly to the USAPA leadership. I'm not a USAPA officer myself, and I'm certainly no Alpoid...so it's not all about dues money to me

 

[fr8tmastr]

Okay so it will be democratic, later. For now, while a new contract and a "new" seniority list is negotiated, it will be an appointed leadership answerable to no-one.

I see, sounds vastly superior to ALPA.

Bradford said west protections were at the conceptual stage. You say they are dependent on the west's level of participation. Since there will be no elections I assume that by participation you mean dues and assessment payments. If the west agrees to this "participation" we will get "consideration" from USAPA. Wow, sign my ass up.

If you are an USAPA officer that kind of statement alone is grounds for a DFR suit.

He said in the west's own video that USAPA wants to give the West whatever fences they want for whatever length they want.
He also pleaded for the West to participate in these decisions as it would be "OUR" union.
So if USAPA wins the election, and the West will not participate in setting up fences and conditions what is USAPA to do?

I cant speak for USAPA but I am sure they would take whomever you wanted to be reps for PHX and LAS

 

[EastUS]

Nice try right back.....unless you can somehow guarantee the actions of the East majority. Bradford wouldn't even say that West pilots would have the protection of their DOH if they came East. One would think at least that would be a given if DOH is such a "principle" of "unionism"? Wonder why the interim President of USAPA can't even commit to that morsel?

Maybe he added it to his list of "we'll try" protections for the West.......

Jim

I agree that DOH shold be absolute, and YES; it IS an actual "Principle" of mine, unlike yourself. My priciples aren't "relative" notions, nor are my thoughts as to what constitues "Unionism" in any way "relative". Given that: what's your suggestions for establishing protections for the west people? They can't properly be put into any postion where virtually any east pilot could take their seat. What's the best possible fence "design" that you might have to suggest?

Have you anything to contribute other than "Alpa's relativity is Great/USAPA's DOH is Horrible"?

 

[prechilill]

So if USAPA wins the election, and the West will not participate in setting up fences and conditions what is USAPA to do?

You should really be asking what can USAPA do to the seniority list? Respectable lawyers have already chimed in on this one...

 

[ableoneable]

It gets a wee bit "emotional" around my keyboard at times, and I didn't mean to cavalierly dismiss your concerns. The concerns over protection are entirely valid, and protection must be insured. It's my earnest belief that fences and protections for the west MUST be put in place, or any notions of even supposed eventual solidarity fly out the window. I believe that the vast majority of people out east are of like mind. I can only directly speak for my own thinking and how I intend to express my feelings and vote. The usage of DOH, without protections that ensure that no west pilot would/could be displaced would be an utter disaster for all of us, and a travesty against any/all union precepts. It's my belief that any/all west pilots should be able to bid any position they can hold via DOH, regardless of base. I can see but one sticking point, and I"ll offer the theoretical situation wherein a west captain bids east, and displaces a junior east person, at the lowest open captain's position. Could/should that east pilot then be able to bid west and displace a west pilot? I think not.

East baby, there are many, many issues that we do not agree on. That said, I do not doubt that you share my concerns about the potential for an unfair job exchange. (i.e. an east furloughee having a job while a former west captain is on the street.)

(Keep in mind that other easties on this board have indicated that they are perfectly alright with this type of exchange.)

The problem is that your personal feelings are not enough to allay my concerns.

All that I can depend upon is what is offered in writing.

USAPA is offering me absolutely nothing but a vague promise to "look into" protections for west pilots. Other than that they are promising me a system that will absolutely put me on the street prior to a pilot who was furloughed at the time of the merger.

I submit that I would have to be clinically insane to believe that USAPA had my interests at heart.