US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[EastUS]

You should really be asking what can USAPA do to the seniority list? Respectable lawyers have already chimed in on this one...

Sigh..from the videos; so did some insensate, shrieking Harpy and a host of other ill-mannered buffons at PHX, some of whom had evident, and pronounced difficullties with even the english language...No matter. We fully differ as to what proper conclusions should be drawn

Sorry...I know, I know = "Treat us like professionals!..We're not f--kin' stooopid"

PS: Did you REALLY use the term "Respectable lawyers"?, I do appreciate a fine sense of irony..

 

[EastUS]

East baby, there are many, many issues that we do not agree on. That said, I do not doubt that you share my concerns about the potential for an unfair job exchange. (i.e. an east furloughee having a job while a former west captain is on the street.)

(Keep in mind that other easties on this board have indicated that they are perfectly alright with this type of exchange.)

The problem is that your personal feelings are not enough to allay my concerns.

All that I can depend upon is what is offered in writing.

USAPA is offering me absolutely nothing but a vague promise to "look into" protections for west pilots. Other than that they are promising me a system that will absolutely put me on the street prior to a pilot who was furloughed at the time of the merger.

I submit that I would have to be clinically insane to believe that USAPA had my interests at heart.

Understood. I believe that the larger measure of good faith will prevail out here, that doesn't seek out the hearts and livers of the west, but I can fully appreciate your feelings and concerns. I'll note that no such concern's been previously shown for the east at ANY level out there,.....

 

[BoeingBoy]

I agree that DOH shold be absolute, and YES; it IS an actual "Principle" of mine, unlike yourself. My priciples aren't "relative" notions, nor are my thoughts as to what constitues "Unionism" in any way "relative".

I'm sure it's impossible to accept when you're so firmly convinced that your opinion is the only right opinion, but using relative position as the starting point for combining lists is just as much a principle as your DOH view. The two are definitely contradictory opinions, but that doesn't make one a principle and the other a "relative notion" as you so quaintly put it.

Given that: what's your suggestions for establishing protections for the west people? They can't properly be put into any postion where virtually any east pilot could take their seat. What's the best possible fence "design" that you might have to suggest?

Therein lies the problem - the bigger the differences in longevity between pilot groups the greater the number and complexity the fences need to be if the lists are combined using DOH. Even then, they often only address a potential course of future events and not every conceivable course of future events. On top of that, the implementation of any conditions and restrictions is often subject to interpretation, where much mischief can be achieved by those doing the interpreting.

Just as one tiny example, let's use your "No West captain should be displaced" for an example. First, it's unrealistic - how many East bids have there been in the last 10-20 years where no pilot was displaced? The answer is 0, none, nada - on a single list in DOH order. It's dictating an outcome no matter whether the company grows PHX or eliminates it as a crew base. So you make it "No West captain should be displaced by an East pilot". Sounds good except that West pilots can end up displacing West pilots while East pilots capture vacancies - West pilots move backwards while East pilots advance. As even AAA737Pilot acknowledged, over time everyone will seek the level of whatever their combined seniority number can hold. No amount of conditions and restrictions can change that because it depends of the fate of the company. The process of everyone seeking their new seniority level will likely start with the first combined bid and depending on what happens with the company as a whole could be largely complete within a few years. The most that conditions and restrictions can do is modify the time period somewhat, not stop the process. Take the PI/US merger and the 767 as the perfect example. Within about 18 months of combining the pilot groups, over half the 767 captains were "North" pilots who had no 767's in their pre-merger fleet and despite a "fence" on displacements - North couldn't displace South and vice versa. And that was, as you said, a merger of relatively similar carriers.

In my opinion, it's much better to combine the lists in such a way that if it were put into effect on the day of the merger everyone's new seniority number would hold the same job as they were able to hold with their old seniority number the day before the merger. Then add the minimum conditions and restrictions needed to address such things as fleet differences. Everyone moves up or down depending on the company's fate. Any other way the lists are combined, especially with such drastic differences in longevity as exist in this case, one side is going to see advancement while the other moves backward.

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

alpa is totally responsible for the chaos depicted on this message thread. No seniority recognition, no policy and no line to wait in. They have whistled in the dark for a long time, now the barbarians are at their gate. alpa is for alpa. The lilliputianed minded leaders are only protecting their own ass ets. East pilots plan b is no different than the one the west pilots have admitted, scorched earth.

There are winners though, the next generation of pilots are seeing alpa's true colors and those of their union "brothers and sisters." The I've got mine attitude and I deserve yours has been allowed to fester long enough. We have been walking past other pilots looking for their airline emblem and not respecting their own personal accomplishments long enough.

john prater president of the airline pilots association, despite the outcome of this bellwether election, I will truly enjoy your demise. Not because it is the end of you, it will be a new beginning for others.

 

[EastUS]

I'm sure it's impossible to accept when you're so firmly convinced that your opinion is the only right opinion, but using relative position as the starting point for combining lists is just as much a principle as your DOH view. The two are definitely contradictory opinions, but that doesn't make one a principle and the other a "relative notion" as you so quaintly put it.

I appreciate your reply, and do think it best to accord that we're both men of some actual principles, however hoplessly divergent our particular beliefs may be. Assuming a USAPA election victory; The problems relating to appropriate fences are formidable indeed, but nevertheless, must be addressed. I'd think it best that any with thoughts on the matter address them to USAPA.

"The most that conditions and restrictions can do is modify the time period" Agreed. That's a very usefull function though.

 

[ableoneable]

alpa is totally responsible for the chaos depicted on this message thread. No seniority recognition, no policy and no line to wait in. They have whistled in the dark for a long time, now the barbarians are at their gate. alpa is for alpa. The lilliputianed minded leaders are only protecting their own ass ets. East pilots plan b is no different than the one the west pilots have admitted, scorched earth.

There are winners though, the next generation of pilots are seeing alpa's true colors and those of their union "brothers and sisters." The I've got mine attitude and I deserve yours has been allowed to fester long enough. We have been walking past other pilots looking for their airline emblem and not respecting their own personal accomplishments long enough.

john prater president of the airline pilots association, despite the outcome of this bellwether election, I will truly enjoy your demise. Not because it is the end of you, it will be a new beginning for others.

Sounds good, just like most fairy tales.

I must have missed the part where USAPA was going to provide a national seniority list and arbitrate all previous wrongs. Wait till I tell the TWA/American guys I fly with. They will be thrilled.

 

[nostradamus]

Sounds good, just like most fairy tales.

I must have missed the part where USAPA was going to provide a national seniority list and arbitrate all previous wrongs. Wait till I tell the TWA/American guys I fly with. They will be thrilled.

Maybe they were going to address this in the meeting they had in Phoenix. You probably missed a lot of things they had to say simply because you chose heckling and mob action versus giving someone a chance to speak, you have been conditioned by alpa's leadership to do this.

 

[BoeingBoy]

"The most that conditions and restrictions can do is modify the time period" Agreed. That's a very usefull function though.

How useful probably depends on one's perspective - if a West captain is sitting in the right seat a year after the lists are combined, I'm not sure it's be much solace to him/her that the demotion would have come sooner without the "fairness" that those conditions and restrictions added to strict DOH.....

I know that we'll never agree on this issue, but look at it this way - if no East pilot wants to take anything away that a West pilot had on the merger date, and vice versa, what's the harm of giving everyone a seniority number that insures no one can take anything from someone on the other side? If the merger date status quo with proportional shared growth/shrinkage is the goal, why not accomplish it thru the seniority list instead of complicated conditions and restrictions that will only delay the inevitable "winners and losers" outcome at best? It's just the old KISS principle to me - achieve the goal in the simplest way possible and decrease the chance of unintended consequences.

A quick anecdote about unintended consequences and the displacement "fence" that Kagle put up. As the 727's were being phased out, it was discovered that the North "ROPEs" (pilots that had bid flight engineer to keep working after reaching 60, for those not familiar with the term) couldn't displace into CLT FE slots because those were held by "South" people. The North merger reps, perfectly happy with that "fence" while South bases were being closed resulting in South pilots moving backward while North people advanced, suddenly were adament that the "fence" was grotesquely unfair - how could anyone deny the ROPEs their right to bump whoever they wanted.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Maybe they were going to address this in the meeting they had in Phoenix. You probably missed a lot of things they had to say simply because you chose heckling and mob action versus giving someone a chance to speak, you have been conditioned by alpa's leadership to do this.

That truly was a pathetic mob. I watched about as much as I could stand from several snippetts. "You know why I hate you guys!?..because before this merger, I was 60 numbers from being a 757 Captain"/etc ad plain-old-puke. ad: "It's ALWAYS ALL entirely about MEEE!!!!!" Then we can see a "moderator" saying "Let's have some decorum"..and immediately ranting off on an hysterical diatribe as the self-assigned one who "Speaks for 1800 pilots"..in all? ...words just fail me. Do I "get" that they're angry?..Of course. Should I have even the slightest actual respect for them, based upon behavior?..That's another little issue. It goes without saying that I find the "ARMY" of leonidas and their prissy little sticker-graffitti campaign to be further indications of a truly mature, intelligent and disciplined group of "professionals". That there are even allegedly grown "men" talking of being in any "Army" during a time of actual warfare', with siad "Army's battlefields being wherever they can put their cutsie-pie little stickers up...well..such BS's just truly beneath contempt in it's utter childishness.

"Treat us like professionals!..we're not f--kin' stooopid". Well..it'd be far, far easier to do the former, were the latter not continually being so clearly displayed as being umm.."questionable".

 

[b737fo]

It's too late now. Maybe ALPA stacked the deck over the years and it simply got too corrupted. Don't blame USAPA. We want to start something NEW. It's either USAPA or NO UNION, because ALPA is the greater of the two evils; then USAPA, if you want to put it in labor terms. And it is sad that labor unions have to look at it in terms that I just expressed...the LESSER of two evils, instead of a CHOICE between the COMPANY or the UNION.

The point's I've made today is that I don't want ANYBODYS job, but WE DIDN'T DO IT....THE COMPANIES MERGED AND WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY INPUT INTO THAT PROCESS.

It is all in the eye of the beholder because you have around 40% of the US Airways pilots who believe that USAPA is the greater of two evils so what you sell as fact is really just your perception as is my very different opinion.

So which is it then end of alpa? You say above that you don't want anyone's job yet I believe the opposite is true. After all you are the one who said "I'll cross ANY picket line with ALPA." Are you a scab for choosing USAPA? Absolutely not but your statements appear to portray you as someone who is chomping at the bit to be one. Please correct my conclusions if I am wrong.

Sharktooth:Thank you for the offer of volunteering for USAPA but I don't really fit in an organization that seems one track minded. After all this whole seniority merger philosophy is listed before promoting aviation safety in the C&BL of USAPA.

 

[wopr21]

Well you would be wrong, as usual. Your bitter laments serve only to show your lack of any truer involvment in the grand scheme of aviation and the unions within. The foam doesn't fall far from the brew.

You may think fences and restrictions wouldn't amount to much but I can assure you that there is no intent on being anything but more than reasonable. Given the circumstances, if the West could at least agree that the fundamental principle is DOH, the fences and restrictions could be liberal on cross over possibilities.

Of course, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Alas, Poor Yorick!

Also they always fail at realizing where they will be in 5-7 years from now when most of us here will be retiring. IMO a far better position than they would have had before the merger. I didn't see any wide bodies on the west. They think that they will be at the same seniority forever. They haven't grasped the concept of attrition over time and how that benefits them greatly. They will own USAirways in the near future and can change what they want because they will have the majority vote.

The east is not after their jobs. What you have you keep. Thats called protections. I am not interested in taking a job that was earned by DOH from a west pilot. I am however interested in keeping my position and projected position that I earned by my DOH on the east.

wopr21

 

[b737fo]

Also they always fail at realizing where they will be in 5-7 years from now when most of us here will be retiring. IMO a far better position than they would have had before the merger. I didn't see any wide bodies on the west. They think that they will be at the same seniority forever. They haven't grasped the concept of attrition over time and how that benefits them greatly. They will own USAirways in the near future and can change what they want because they will have the majority vote.

The east is not after their jobs. What you have you keep. Thats called protections. I am not interested in taking a job that was earned by DOH from a west pilot. I am however interested in keeping my position and projected position that I earned by my DOH on the east.

wopr21

It is quite a gamble to back an entity that says "we'll look at" it without seeing any sort of position on the myriad of scenarios that could develop before the West would have that majority vote. Base closures, shared growth, and new hubs are all situations that can develop in this industry and so far no one has answers on how to handle these scenarios with these two groups. The "trust us" we will address this later tact doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

 

[nostradamus]

The "trust us" we will address this later tact doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

Then vote out alpa.

 

[EastUS]

Also they always fail at realizing where they will be in 5-7 years from now when most of us here will be retiring. IMO a far better position than they would have had before the merger. I didn't see any wide bodies on the west. They think that they will be at the same seniority forever. They haven't grasped the concept of attrition over time and how that benefits them greatly. They will own USAirways in the near future and can change what they want because they will have the majority vote.

The east is not after their jobs. What you have you keep. Thats called protections. I am not interested in taking a job that was earned by DOH from a west pilot. I am however interested in keeping my position and projected position that I earned by my DOH on the east.

wopr21

It's likely nothing that a talented team of child psychologists couldn't fix. "It's ALL about MEEE!!!" and "Christmas will just NEVER come!!..Waaah!!". After watching the cutsie-pie little edited videos from PHX, hearing the mighty, sticker-pasting roar from the "ARMY"-of-adolescents out there: I'm pretty much done with these "people" and think it best to just follow decent principles, wihout regard for any particular people's actual worth as human beings, as I might judge such and that, rather sadly, necessitates decent treatment for them.

 

[b737fo]

It goes without saying that I find the "ARMY" of leonidas and their prissy little sticker-graffitti campaign to be further indications of a truly mature, intelligent and disciplined group of "professionals".

That is actually pretty funny EastUS. By the way what rank USAPA lanyard do you hold? The original 2nd class or are you a new Yellow Lanyard 1st class now?