US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[wopr21]

It is quite a gamble to back an entity that says "we'll look at" it without seeing any sort of position on the myriad of scenarios that could develop before the West would have that majority vote. Base closures, shared growth, and new hubs are all situations that can develop in this industry and so far no one has answers on how to handle these scenarios with these two groups. The "trust us" we will address this later tact doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

Do you really expect that the details of a contract can be ironed out in 3 weeks. It took sometimes 2 years to negotiate a contract. You can't plan for every scenario. Although through time you can prepare for most of them. This new union will take some time and effort to get going, just like when ALPA first started. I wonder what questions were asked then?

wopr21

 

[jtwhat]

my fellow west brothers why keep engaging these clowns you should have better things to do like spend time with your families. these simple minded pilots have only one thing on there mind and i would guess most of them that post on this board was furloughed before the buying of usairways.

 

[EastUS]

my fellow west brothers why keep engaging these clowns you should have better things to do like spend time with your families. these simple minded pilots have only one thing on there mind and i would guess most of them that post on this board was furloughed before the buying of usairways.

Just a thought AWA320/itwhat: For enhanced credibilty; one properly employs a capital letter at the beginning of each sentence. "Was furloughed", however hopelessly innapropriate, is suitable only for an individual, and not an entire group/plural case as you seek to do. I won't bother with the inherent hypocrisy as per: "why keep engaging these clowns you should have better things to do" I'd think that you also have "better things to do". Don't you have some graffitti/cute litttle stickers to put up, oh mighty "soldier" in the "army" of leonidas?

My respect continues to grow at an almost exponential rate.

"Treat us like professionals...we're not f--kin' stooooopid" Ummm..Yeah..I suppose that I'll have to just take your word for that.

 

[ClueByFour]

1) Can you honestly even have the slightest fantasy that waves of east pilots are just a' tearing at the bit to move into your domiciles.....and thusly, actually want to personally have anything to do with you people? Get real, for even a moment. Having studiously offered NONE yourselves, and with the east stating that we're fine with fences and protections for you, both as a practical solution and the most equitable overall...

How about this: you guys gonna offer the West that and a guarantee that every guy that was recalled to the East since the merger is furloughed before a single West pilot when they come around again? And I mean permanently, not for a year--this would ensure that anyone bringing a job to the merger keeps it before someone who does not.

Little things like this, which you can bet good money won't show up in any USAPA seniority agreement.

(not that it matters--the West guys' lawyer is spot on)

 

[EastUS]

That is actually pretty funny EastUS. By the way what rank USAPA lanyard do you hold? The original 2nd class or are you a new Yellow Lanyard 1st class now?

I have nothing in my personal history that amounts to any truly heroic rank equivalent to graffitti/sticker-boy in the "Army" of leonidas, and I'm quite certain that silver leaves would count for less than nothing against such martial magnificence as you clearly have in abundance out west.

 

[jtwhat]

Just a thought AWA320/itwhat: For enhanced credibilty; one properly employs a capital letter at the beginning of each sentence. "Was furloughed", however hopelessly innapropriate, is suitable only for an individual, and not an entire group/plural case as you seek to do. I won't bother with the inherent hypocrisy as per: "why keep engaging these clowns you should have better things to do" I'd think that you also have "better things to do". Don't you have some graffitti/cute litttle stickers to put up, oh mighty "soldier" in the "army" of leonidas?

My respect continues to grow at an almost exponential rate.

"Treat us like professionals...we're not f--kin' stooooopid" Ummm..Yeah..I suppose that I'll have to just take your word for that.

Did I touch a nerve. As for your respect I really dont give a rat arse but when I say Gear up just say yes Captain. You career First officer maybe you can be an language arts teachers since you are more interested in my paragraph presentation. And for your little brain I am not AWA320. Now go read Captain Authority in your FOM and learn it good so when you fly with one of us west rookies you will know your place.

 

[EastUS]

Did I touch a nerve. As for your respect I really dont give a rat arse but when I say Gear up just say yes Captain. You career First officer maybe you can be an language arts teachers since you are more interested in my paragraph presentation. And for your little brain I am not AWA320. Now go read Captain Authority in your FOM and learn it good so when you fly with one of us west rookies you will know your place.

My mistake. I hadn't thought it actually possible that there were more AWA320 sorts out there, with all the requisite mastery in communication displayed within these threads, and that actually fly planes. Umm...have you guys obtained the English Speaking certification for your tickets as of yet? No matter really... "Did I touch a nerve."is a question, btw..that'd go with a ?, for future reference..if you haven't yet edited the post.

"Now go read Captain Authority in your FOM and learn it good so when you fly with one of us west rookies you will know your place." Ah!...you're one of "those" Umm..I've read it...awhile back in fact. Well...regardless of whether Nic had ever gone through...and as much as it truly breaks my heart to tell you good sir...you'll never equal me via seniority of any kind...sorry.

"so when you fly with one of us west rookies you will know your place." Sigh..I'll surely try. Not to worry though..I don't personally believe in abusing subordinates...a concept clearly alien to "Mighty Captains" like you are, or seek to become.

"Treat us like professshunuls...wer're not f---kin' stoooooooopid" Yep

PS: A cockpit's a poor place to play "Big Man" at any time, and it's my earnest advice to always keep any/all crew on the same page that you are, and in the "same sky" as well. That can be of tremendous benefit during emergencies, difficult weather/etc. Puffing your chest up like an arrogant, utter idiot/high-school-fool, and alienating your team mate's only good for proving what an utterly unprofessional, totally irresponsible, completely immature, and essentially, purely moronic individual one might truly be. I've never seen, nor heard of only half of an aircraft crashing. If your "thinking" is at all typical out west: My respect for your group once more increases dramatically.

Seriously: GROW UP

 

[ableoneable]

How about this: you guys gonna offer the West that and a guarantee that every guy that was recalled to the East since the merger is furloughed before a single West pilot when they come around again? And I mean permanently, not for a year--this would ensure that anyone bringing a job to the merger keeps it before someone who does not.

Little things like this, which you can bet good money won't show up in any USAPA seniority agreement.

(not that it matters--the West guys' lawyer is spot on)

Sounds good to me.

Bradford?

 

[flytchick]

So just out of curiosity - my husband got his ALPA invoice today for our (joint) supplemental life insurance...... USAPA - what are you offering in this insurance plan? Are we going to be protected immediately if you take over?

 

[Watermelonman]

There has been a lot of noise by both prospective representatives. Most of ALPA’s communication has been about the benefits of retaining ALPA. However, it really should focus on how devasting the proposed alternative would be.
If USAPA were a genuine union, one whose goals are to negotiate better pay, benefits, and working conditions for thier constituents, and if it had a sound plan to accomplish that, I might consider it. But USAPA is a “union†born of division-a direct contradiction in terms. Absent the seniority promise, USAPA has failed to even attempt to identify leverage or form a plan to negotiate a contract. Voting for USAPA as our bargaining agent may help to assuage your anger, but in the long run, it will only be to most pilots’ detriment.

Upon examination of the DOH promise, it is questionable at best. USAPA’s information correctly states that if chosen, it inherits all previous agreements. If USAPA’s promise is to be believed, they should add “except one†to this statement. All previous agreements includes both contracts, the transition agreement, and the seniority list-which has been presented to, and accepted by the company. USAPA will not adress this disparity of logic. Instead, USAPA’s purported ability to impose a DOH list relies on the advice of a dubious lawyer. Failing that, they are counting on Doug Parker’s willingness to undo his acceptance of the list, or the hope that USAPA will somehow find leverage to compel Parker to negotiate around that list. 

Add to all this USAPA’s own admission that it will propose a “cost neutral†contract. Is a “union†whose mantra is to parrot the company’s negotiating strategy trustworthy? USAPA organizers have already stated this is their intention-to sell out all pilots in order to benefit some. The seniority issue, the most compelling reason that most (East) pilots would choose USAPA, barely holds water.
But the most convincing reason not to choose USAPA is the long term affects this choice would have on all our careers. USAPA seeks to take this divided pilot group and divide it even further. The “divide and conquer†approach destabilizes the pilot group for a long time to come and devalues your leverage, and your ability to negotiate indefinetely. We are familiar with this management tactic. Even if USAPA were to succeed in changing the “awardâ€, the negative effects of our pilot group’s division will be felt for the our entire careers.

To ALPA’s credit, they have at least tried to unify us, through the Rice Committee, and steering committees (much to the anger of West pilots, who see these unprecendented, unwritten third and fourth steps in merger policy as direct favoritism of the East pilot group). Unity is the cornerstone of organized labor, and is what we will need to find to move forward.

ALPA has communicated extensivley about the benefits of ALPA membership, but has failed to recognize that there are indeed successful independent unions. However, USAPA has precious little chance of rising to anywhere near the level of APA or IPA.
In this election, the reasons for choosing ALPA have not so much to do with what ALPA is, but rather what ALPA is not. In this case they are simply the lesser of the two “evilsâ€, if you will. This is more true for the West than for the East, but upon close examination, it is true for all of us. An independent union may not be a bad choice at some later date, but it would need to be one built upon the unity and resolve of all US Airways pilots. USAPA can guarantee one thing-a bitter protracted battle in which the only winners will be lawyers. The other option at least holds the hope that we may find common ground. ALPA is the only available choice that has a chance of benefitting all US Airways pilots.

Many discount these arguments due to the source. But I believe there are more logical, rational thinkers on both sides of the debate than radicals. This choice is important to all of us, and should not be made out anger or despair, but with a clear view of what it means to our future.


Ian
Active AWA, Furloughed AAA (purged)

 

[EyeInTheSky]

USAPA seeks to take this divided pilot group and divide it even further. The “divide and conquerâ€￾ approach destabilizes the pilot group ...

Ian
Active AWA, Furloughed AAA (purged)

Yoo hoo, Ian...ALPA has been doing this for years...where have you been?

Later,
Eye

 

[end_of_alpa]

It is all in the eye of the beholder because you have around 40% of the US Airways pilots who believe that USAPA is the greater of two evils so what you sell as fact is really just your perception as is my very different opinion.

So which is it then end of alpa? You say above that you don't want anyone's job yet I believe the opposite is true. After all you are the one who said "I'll cross ANY picket line with ALPA." Are you a scab for choosing USAPA? Absolutely not but your statements appear to portray you as someone who is chomping at the bit to be one. Please correct my conclusions if I am wrong.

Sharktooth:Thank you for the offer of volunteering for USAPA but I don't really fit in an organization that seems one track minded. After all this whole seniority merger philosophy is listed before promoting aviation safety in the C&BL of USAPA.

You see, that's the problem with ALPA guys. ALPA is not nor has it EVER been a true union. You WILL find that out soon. ALPA is UNLIKE all other unions in the world where the economic disparity is so great between the "most senior" and the "most junior" which is where we are today. In short, ALPA creates its own whipsaw through the use of pattern bargaining, OVER COMPENSATING THE TOP GUYS AND UNDER COMPENSATING THE BOTTOM GUYS.

The leverage ALPA had in deregulation is gone.

YOU CANNOT STRIKE!! THE MARKET WILL NOT ALLOW IT.

If US Airways pilots were to strike today, would WE benefit or would our Companies competitors and consequently THEIR pilots with increased revenue and thereby increased JOB SECURITY?

As 700UW so PROUDLY proclaims, the AMFA had TERRIBLE results at NWA. Not because they didn't have unity, THEY DID. It was because NWA was in BK and NWA wanted to outsource maintenance. And the vendors availible lined up with THEIR mechanics because those mechanics were willing to work for less. It didn't have ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE LAWYERS....it has to do with the RANK AND FILE......the MARKETPLACE RANK AND FILE!

As time progresses I believe that as technology advances and competition in the aviation markets heat up to supply new technology components you will see an increase in "outsourcing" to include PILOTS. Not so much because of availible pilots, but because of technology.

That's right, PILOTS!

After this merger and what pilots here have shed the light on ALPA, if you do NOT think management is smart enough to end-run labor in this fight, you are WRONG and ALPA has NO CLUE how to combat it. Why, in our latest new hire class alone every pilot came from a smaller ALPA carrier! Not so much for better pay but the PROMISE....THE PROMISE, MIND YOU, of the POTENTIAL TO IMPROVE THEIR LOT BY PLAYING THE ODDS. Because the ODDS FAVOR their YOUTH! The ODDS FAVOR the WHIPSAW created by ALPA National and the MEC's.

Open skies is around the corner, and if you think ALPA's international comraderie of 63,000 pilots is going to stop it, think again. For every ALPA pilot there is FOUR pilots WITH ATP'S and ATPL's at domestic AND foreign carriers waiting to take your place.....forget about me "scabbing" which is what YOU WANT ME TO DO! There's plenty out there that WILL! And that, my friend is whom I KNOW I HAVE TO COMPETE WITH....NOT YOU! (except for Nicolau/merger issues, which mimics scabbing)

ALPA is run by pilots and lawyers that simply work their way to the top and leave the bottom tier hanging.....a history lesson that is NOT written by me as I have posted this many times before. So what if ALPA collapses, the money paid for by YOUR dues will provide their retirements NOW! Can I prove it now....NOT QUANTIFIABLY AT THIS JUNCTURE IN TIME.....BUT THE NEXT FIVE YEARS WILL PROVE OTHERWISE.

As for my crossing ANY ALPA picket line, I can say that with confidence because odds are there will never BE a strike at any ALPA carrier in the remainder of my career.....with the other airlines benefiting from the customer run-off and the price of Jet-A being so high that the relief from the over-head of paying employees make it a sound business practice to go into BK and LOCK OUT EMPLOYEES!

Besides, whether it's ALPA or USAPA, the East MEC is LOCKING YOU WEST PILOTS OUT OF CAPTAINS SEATS AND I FOR ONE WILL NOT GIVE MINE UP TO YOU! My backup plan if USAPA fails is to do EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO KEEP YOU IN PHX/LAS. We may get paid less but I guess I'll just have to increase my pay with the upgrade and give the East coast flying to the new guys. We can promise our attrition to the new-hires. If we get separate operations the promise of quick upgrades to the new-hires out East that will dilute your votes and increase the possibility of a quicker advancement for them....which is EXACTLY WHAT THE EAST MEC PLANS TO DO! USAPA is trying to PREVENT THAT! But if that is what you want, then far be it from me to deny you. If we can't vote you out, we breed you out.

THINK ABOUT IT!

Maybe 40% of the pilots feel that USAPA is the greater of two evils but 99% feel that Nicolau IS THE EVIL and that we here out East can ALL agree on. There is NO CONTRACT with Nicolau that will satify anyone here. Someone will blink and it won't be East. The only TRUE option the West has, regardless, is that by voting USAPA (and I won't win you over because you don't see it) it eliminates the SUPER-MAJORITY of the East AND West and puts your votes ON PAR with the majority East pilots. Remember we only need 1,422 pilots to block a TA under ALPA....something YOU guys seem to blind to see, where with the combined group East and West under USAPA your power increases with a combined vote.

Look, I've explained this ad nausem. I will have to say that workers at most other labor unions understand this principle. PILOT unions, however, are so focused on THEMSELVES they never stop to think of the other possibilities.....the ones that STAB you in the back!

I won't have to scab. The disunity is doing it for ME!

 

[pilot]

So just out of curiosity - my husband got his ALPA invoice today for our (joint) supplemental life insurance...... USAPA - what are you offering in this insurance plan? Are we going to be protected immediately if you take over?

The answer to both questions is yes. But you'd already know that if you or your husband were paying attention to the information USAPA has been providing.

However, if you are using ALPA for ANY kind of insurance you are overpaying. I suspect the same if you choose to go with USAPA insurance also since the premiums will likely be the same or slightly less. Do a little research online for the coverage you have using regular insurance providers and I'll bet you will be shocked at the money you'll save. ALPA insurance has NEVER been a good deal.

pilot

 

[end_of_alpa]

You West pilots have a choice:

Plan A, if you vote USAPA you have the opportunity to remove the barriers of super majority and the ability to create a mutual solution for growth that separates us under ALPA.

Plan B, however, is worst. If you stay in ALPA, the East holds the cards....if +1,422 plus pilots vote NO on any T/A, the East pilots, supported by the East MEC benefit by:

1. Capturing upgrades and increased compensation under LOA 93 at longevity rates higher than yours
( I'm sure that your MEC advocates separate section 6....GREAT! We can improve our lot by offering the Company LOA 93 for longer which improves the company bottom line)

2. Recalls get accelerated Captain positions that will be paid at rates of pay considerably higher than a first year Captain

3. All new hires are East pilots which mean they capture attrition and growth that the East pilots surrender in five years including international positions (RECALLS and NEW HIRES are already get international billets)

4. New hires are East pilots and their votes of no on any T/A will mean more growth opportunities for them and the ability to argue that their career expectations were higher for them after five years than the West because the West wants a contract subordinating the East pilots in a contract that disadvantages pilots below 517

5. As the attrition also hits the West pilots in five years any new hire pilots hired with the company will fall under the East contract and East flying/ expansion will enable the East to increase flying in the West as B737 are retired and capture rates of pay that undercut the pay of West pilots.

Hey, I win under USAPA and giving the West a choice or I win under ALPA and capture my attrition that way.....guess I don't have to scab.....ALPA is doing it for me!

P.S. PLEASE DON'T TELL ME HOW TO VOTE. I WIN EITHER WAY!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Did I touch a nerve. As for your respect I really dont give a rat arse but when I say Gear up just say yes Captain. You career First officer maybe you can be an language arts teachers since you are more interested in my paragraph presentation. And for your little brain I am not AWA320. Now go read Captain Authority in your FOM and learn it good so when you fly with one of us west rookies you will know your place.

Good luck with that. You may not like what us "CAREER FIRST OFFICERS" have to say but you won't be able to argue our VOTE!

Can you say VOTING AUTHORITY!

I got your place right here!