US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[b737fo]

From the USAPA website:"Our only concern is the interests of the US Airways pilot and how to best represent US Airways pilots, East and West."

From a USAPA officer (Mark King Sec/Tres): "Do you think we would tell you that today?" (In reference to a question on who the PHX and LAS reps for USAPA are.)

This is from an organization that wants to represent me. Hey listen up USAPA. If you win the election then my dues would be your "pay check" to be my CBA. Is that how you are going to treat your "customers"? So what is it Mr. King? Do you have reps for the West yet or are you hiding them from the very pilots they have been selected to represent? Shame on the USAPS!

 

[EastUS]

From the USAPA website:"USAPA exists because all US Airways deserve better representation than ALPA can provide."

From a USAPA officer (Mark King Sec/Tres): "Do you think we would tell you that today?" (In reference to a question on who the PHX and LAS reps for USAPA are.)

This is from an organization that wants to represent me. Hey listen up USAPA. If you win the election then my dues would be your "pay check" to be my CBA. Is that how you are going to treat your "customers"? So what is it Mr. King? Do you have reps for the West yet or are you hiding them from the very pilots they have been selected to represent? Shame on the USAPS!

Here's a "radical" thought for you out west, that I'm sure will be found to be laughable: Why don't you folks start considering people that you would like to have as your local reps, make your wishes known, and actually become participants?

"Hey listen up USAPA" When's the last time you directly sent any thoughts/questions/etc to USAPA?

I realize that there might be serious concerns from the clear threat of being innudated with stickers from the Alpa-publican Guards elite "ARMY" troops out there, but, if you want a voice..Speak Up

 

[Tiger 1050]

So much for unionism.

You think we're scabs.

You boys out east destroyed any chance of "unionism" between these two groups the minute the award became public! Sadly you guys still don't get it... The west didn't come up with the Nic. The Nic panel did. But yet you wish to force your position on 1800 west pilots simply because you do not think the award recognizes your desires. Sorry man. We went through the arbitration process. This is the list...

BTW I heard once that you are attending law school or have been through and are awaiting the bar... Are you really ignorant enough to believe everything Seham tells you guys? C'mon your smarter than that.

And yes, considering what it is you wish to do to the west pilots I will personally do everything in my power (admittedly not much) to see USAPA removed from the property should they prevail in this election. Why? Ask yourself this question. Why would Scott Thuer claim that relative seniority is unjust and that the Nic is lopsided, and then speak out of the other side of his mouth saying that if a west pilot wants to move east they would most certainly have to look at how that would effect the east pilots relative seniority!!!!!! So in the end we have learned that if its good for the east, it's good. But not the other way around. You guys are so laughably transparent!

Watch for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHwxpm6tqK0

 

[EastUS]

You boys out east destroyed any chance of "unionism" between these two groups the minute the award became public!

"the minute the award became public" resulted in the enviornment that "destroyed any chance of "unionism"....I'll ask you to seriously THINK about that in detail, as if from a distance, and without West vs East notions overriding all else. Was it truly a pure issue of "You boys out east" or, even just possibly, the result of a fatally flawed "Association", and it's little "processes"?

We'll never see eye to eye on this I'd imagine, but we have to deal with the reality of the situation in any case.

"Why would Scott Thuer claim that relative seniority is unjust and that the Nic is lopsided, and then speak out of the other side of his mouth saying that if a west pilot wants to move east they would most certainly have to look at how that would effect the east pilots relative seniority!!!!!! So in the end we have learned that if its good for the east, it's good. But not the other way around. You guys are so laughably transparent! " What seems conveniently missed out west (perhaps because no one was actually listening it seemed) is that he was addressing the issue of how to establish it so a west pilot can move east, and thusly, his/her east counterpart could move west. What's the proper position for said east pilot out west?...given protective fences for the west? The election's not even finished..and you all want "magic answers" before the Union's even in business. OK..Great: How about some input from the west?...other than "Treat us like professionals..we're not f--kin' stupid"?

"Stupid is as stupid does" Forrest Gump...and I do NOT believe all of you out there to be nothing more than loud-mouthed fools.

 

[Tiger 1050]

"the minute the award became public" resulted in the enviornment that "destroyed any chance of "unionism"....I'll ask you to seriously THINK about that in detail, as if from a distance, and without West vs East notions overriding all else. Was it truly a pure issue of "You boys out east" or, even just possibly, the result of a fatally flawed "Association", and it's little "processes"?

Fair enough. However this is a perspective of the reaction by the east pilots to a process that handed us the results. A process that I contend was fair and just. A process that neither side disagreed with prior to the award! To me it is as simple as you believed DOH was the right path to pursue. Unfortunately it proved ill-conceived for you. But let's also remember that on no less than 3 separate occasions did G. Nicolau make statements to both sides that his list would not be date based. You can burry your head in the sand all you wish but in the end you simply do not like the outcome of the arbitration and USAPA is nothing short of an attempted land-grab.

We'll never see eye to eye on this I'd imagine, but we have to deal with the reality of the situation in any case.

Look I have friends out east and while we usually skip the union rhetoric we still have found common ground in our personal lives etc. I by no means wish to make this personal. Sometimes that proves difficult but just as you wish to see ALPA gone, I wish for USAPA to go away. Nothing personal about it. BTW what ever are we going to do if years down the road things settle and we do find one cohesive pilot group? ...We'll have to make something up I guess.

What seems conveniently missed out west (perhaps because no one was actually listening it seemed) is that he was addressing the issue of how to establish it so a west pilot can move east, and thusly, his/her east counterpart could move west. What's the proper position for said east pilot out west?...given protective fences for the west? The election's not even finished..and you all want "magic answers" before the Union's even in business. OK..Great: How about some input from the west?...other than "Treat us like professionals..we're not f--kin' stupid"?

You just illustrated my point! Either DOH is good or it's not. You can't have this "...well let's see here. DOH is good for the east pilot but let's just take a look at things if a senior west pilot wants to move east. We can't have a situation where the senior westie affects the relative seniority of an east pilot." He got caught in his web of twisted lies and was trying to recover his uncontrolled flight as valiantly as possible but to no avail... He crashed and burned horribly in my opinion.

"Stupid is as stupid does" Forrest Gump...and I do NOT believe all of you out there to be nothing more than loud-mouthed fools.

Sometimes I do put my foot in my mouth. My condition is called human. I'd be lying if I were to claim otherwise...

 

[BoeingBoy]

So much for unionism.

You think we're scabs.

Interesting, since I never used the "s" word at all other than as contained in quotes of your own words. Apparently you're well aware of the potential position your own words put you in and are now uncomfortable that you've revealed your personal brand of "unionism".

Jim

 

[end_of_alpa]

Interesting, since I never used the "s" word at all other than as contained in quotes of your own words. Apparently you're well aware of the potential position your own words put you in and are now uncomfortable that you've revealed your personal brand of "unionism".

Jim

No, Jim...you're just frustrated that YOUR brand of unionism didn't prevail with the Piedmont/US Air merger and the Kagel award.

I've flown with guys like you when I hired at Piedmont. When I explained to THEM that I didn't think the "slotting" position made logical sense in any true union given the already "difficult" history ALPA had already been through I was berated and told that as a "new hire" I should shut my mouth or get fired considering I was on probation. Needless to say I'm still here.

Considering that Piedmont and US Air flew almost the exact same equipment and had very similar histories didn't matter to the Piedmont guys since Tom Davis was their managment hero and promised them more 767's than God can count. Not to take away anything from Tom because I met him and admired him but HE was the one that lost control of Piedmont to N/S.

 

[EastUS]

Sometimes I do put my foot in my mouth. My condition is called human. I'd be lying if I were to claim otherwise...

Understood..and no different case with me BTW: The "Forrest Gump" was intended as a quote source, and not any personal attack. Those, I imagine I make obvious.

There are clearly divergent belief structures in place for many of us...again: the human condition. I've always felt that pure DOH was/is the ONLY reasonable basis for any establishment of seniority within any trade. We clearly differ on that, and we've the results to deal with. Speaking for myself; I wanted Alpa gone long ago and my thoughts are that the Nic business aroused a great many of similar feelings to finally take action. I would hardly now, be at all enthused with Alpa had the Nic never materialized, and we fully differ as to that being even possibly the case, regardless of ANY arbitration outcome.

One thing I'm far past sick of from the west is this "Tyranny of the Majority" BS. Isn't that how Democracy actually works? There's been no shortage of "I want.." from the west. Has it escaped you all that not only the planes and routes come with this "merger", but the people who established and fly them as well? What method of government would be prefered out west? Should we simply establish the western minority as some newborn "Royal Family" instead?..With all the attendant special priveledges and "Royal Rank"?...Due to WHAT?..Signing on for AWA?

 

[EastUS]

Interesting, since I never used the "s" word at all other than as contained in quotes of your own words. Apparently you're well aware of the potential position your own words put you in and are now uncomfortable that you've revealed your personal brand of "unionism".

Jim

"...you've revealed your personal brand of "unionism". As you long ago revealed yours = "I'm Piedmont ALPA!...Therefore: I'm special!, just ask ME!!...I want "relatively" great/super-seniority!!" "I'm clearly, in my own mind; "More Equal" than my Alpa "Brothers and Sisters" from any other airlines"/etc. I believe that Orwell best defined the sort of animals that self-determined that they were "More Equal" than other animals, and such make very poor poster children for any espousement of "Unionism" at any level, but they do afford much amusement when viewed/heard as the jeering crowds on the popular videos posted on this thread.

Regardless: I've no thoughts that scabbing's ever appropriate.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You boys out east destroyed any chance of "unionism" between these two groups the minute the award became public! Sadly you guys still don't get it... The west didn't come up with the Nic. The Nic panel did. But yet you wish to force your position on 1800 west pilots simply because you do not think the award recognizes your desires. Sorry man. We went through the arbitration process. This is the list...

BTW I heard once that you are attending law school or have been through and are awaiting the bar... Are you really ignorant enough to believe everything Seham tells you guys? C'mon your smarter than that.

And yes, considering what it is you wish to do to the west pilots I will personally do everything in my power (admittedly not much) to see USAPA removed from the property should they prevail in this election. Why? Ask yourself this question. Why would Scott Thuer claim that relative seniority is unjust and that the Nic is lopsided, and then speak out of the other side of his mouth saying that if a west pilot wants to move east they would most certainly have to look at how that would effect the east pilots relative seniority!!!!!! So in the end we have learned that if its good for the east, it's good. But not the other way around. You guys are so laughably transparent!

Watch for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHwxpm6tqK0

You get a FEW things right. I was in law school but I decided I wasn't interested in sacrificing principles of arguing BOTH sides with BU!!SH!T. Besides, the only REAL money you can make is in corporate/securities law or run a large corporation. The problem with lawyers is that there are other words that better fit that description such as liar, liberal, lazy, loathing....well, you get the point. Principles, however, are something foreign to most lawyers because if they had them they wouldn't make any money. I have only met two lawyers I have ever thought worth dealing with. The first is my tax attorney and business advisor. We communicae well and even HE hates the bar (as well as other lawyers). As for the other, Lee is the man. He has more principles then most people I have met. As far as Seham was concerned, there wasn't much more he could tell me that I already didn't know about our situation.....the case law is pretty clear if you take the time to think about it....which most people don't take...the time, that is.

I am glad you are one who defines a "scab" as one who crosses a picket line. A true labor union DEPENDS on trust....trust that his "brothers and sisters" are going to strike if THEY do. Trust that the same will stand WITH them and not cross if and until a mutual agreement is achieved.

I know that the West will never support us in a strike if we can't achive a contract. This is why having a strike fund is useless. The East will never strike because we know the West won't support it.

If ALPA called for a strike because the company wouldn't impliment the Nicolau award how many East pilots would support it....they may NOT come West to fly your airplanes but if East equipment were used to fly your routes with our current contract in force would we be "scabs"? The law says we MUST fly our equipment.

The problem with ALPA and the related minions is their FULL OF LAWYERS and this impartial guy called Nicolau is one of the worst. He's not even a pilot, he was a navigator in the 8th Air force in 1944 and 45. He lost a leg in air combat. Who knows, maybe he blamed the pilots for his loss and tried to get back after many arbitrations....who knows?

What I DO know is after the PHX lynching I realize that there is no middle ground. The company knows there is no middle ground. Hence their choice is made....salvage the most you can and mitigate the losses.

 

[b737fo]

I know that the West will never support us in a strike if we can't achive a contract. This is why having a strike fund is useless. The East will never strike because we know the West won't support it.

If ALPA called for a strike because the company wouldn't impliment the Nicolau award how many East pilots would support it....they may NOT come West to fly your airplanes but if East equipment were used to fly your routes with our current contract in force would we be "scabs"? The law says we MUST fly our equipment.

The problem with ALPA and the related minions is their FULL OF LAWYERS and this impartial guy called Nicolau is one of the worst. He's not even a pilot, he was a navigator in the 8th Air force in 1944 and 45. He lost a leg in air combat. Who knows, maybe he blamed the pilots for his loss and tried to get back after many arbitrations....who knows?

What I DO know is after the PHX lynching I realize that there is no middle ground. The company knows there is no middle ground. Hence their choice is made....salvage the most you can and mitigate the losses.

What facts are you basing your knowledge of support in a strike? Have you polled the West pilot group? As much as I disagree with the basic goal of USAPA, I would still not cross a picket line and I am willing to bet there are many out West who would do the same.

It surprises me though that after almost one year of name calling and unprofessional behavior from both sides, that it took the PHX roadshow for you to see the depth of the division. And by middle ground do you mean what USAPA is proposing because the deck appears a little stacked to me? :down:

 

[sharktooth]

Isn't that exactly what you've said USAPA will happily do - use the power of the majority to force it's will on the minority. Interesting that doing such makes for "scabs or a yellow-dog union" - your words, not mine.......

Giant difference.

The west pilots, through ALPA, want the "nic" with no protections for the other group.

The east pilots, through USAPA, want DOH/LOS with protections for all.

All the difference in the world.

One group is looking out only for themselves, the other, for the entire pilot group and company.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

It was NINE seconds! I work FAST!

Premature usapacation?

 

[sharktooth]

From the USAPA website:"Our only concern is the interests of the US Airways pilot and how to best represent US Airways pilots, East and West."

From a USAPA officer (Mark King Sec/Tres): "Do you think we would tell you that today?" (In reference to a question on who the PHX and LAS reps for USAPA are.)

This is from an organization that wants to represent me. Hey listen up USAPA. If you win the election then my dues would be your "pay check" to be my CBA. Is that how you are going to treat your "customers"? So what is it Mr. King? Do you have reps for the West yet or are you hiding them from the very pilots they have been selected to represent? Shame on the USAPS!

Why don't you toss your hat into the ring, volunteer?

No? Didn't think so.

This situation you bring up reminds me of a CO who said, I don't care how many plans we have, plan A, B, C, or whatever, we will staff all of them, even if we have to make up jobs because whichever way this goes, I want my fingers in that pie.

I give you the west MEC, whose sole "plan" is to hope for ALPA. "Hope" is not a plan. Neither is prayer.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The east pilots, through USAPA, want DOH/LOS with protections for all.

Oh, I saw those conditions and restrictions that "might" get in the contract. What you meant to say was that USAPA, voted in and controlled by East pilots, will give whatever protections the East pilots feel the West deserves - and that doesn't seem like much according to the USAPA supporters here.

Jim