US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 7/14-7/21 NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[lynyrdskynyrd]

PS: I can't help but note that a great many west posters/speakers at various meetings/etc, have previously noted that they believe for everyone that it's, in the end, all about the money, and many west posters have postulated a massive sell-out by the east Captains in favor of pay increases/etc. What I'm wondering is how the hard core support of your own captains, with any real years of seniority, who wouldn't be at all badly treated via DOH is holding up in the face of an otherwise entirely isolated/seperate ops, shrinking west?

The west is "naturally", clearly hopeful that east LOA issues will all be resolved by way of crushing company triumphs over their "fellow pilots" out east. What happens to the actually senior west support for nic-or-nothing, should you folks find yourselves very disappointed, by way of actual union success in any east pay restoration issues?

I could be wrong..but I'd guess you've a far, far higher percentage of people out west who'd sell their young out in a heartbeat for their personal gains than currently exist out east. What I can't help but observe is that the vast majority of west posters here have little to no actual years of real seniority. What are the feelings among yours that actually have been around awhile? Just some food for thought.

I'd say the general concept of 'selling out', or looking out for one's own interest when it comes to a vote on a ta knows no east or west boundary. What you say is noted. How about this though, why were you guys out east so afraid of a vote every taking place? Why the mad pull out of jnc?

Was it simply because you had a plan for what you could do with the single class and craft ruling and your greater numbers? Or was there more to it than that?

 

[EastUS]

Let's just see how things transpire from here.

Indeed. We're all pretty much along for the ride. Let's hope that something/anything good eventually comes of it all.

 

[Hate2fly]

So you think your boy the Judge is going to be able to stop the Section 6 process. The company already told the union they don't have any problem with the east opening Section 6. The mediator from the NMB is on board also.........so lets see how much deeper the Judge wants to get in the water! You boys out west have put your boy the Judge into uncharted waters.....this is starting to get fun to watch!

Looks like the Judge is having some heart burn in the desert!

V. Negotiation of a Collective Bargaining Agreement

G. The duration clause of the Single Agreement negotiated under this Section V. will

replace the respective duration clauses of the America West and US Airways

ALPA collective bargaining agreements. In the event such Single Agreement is

not reached on or before June 30, 2006, then on June 30, 2006 either the

Association or the Airline Parties may decide to suspend negotiations for such

Single Agreement depending on the progress at that time, provided, however, that

the Airline Parties will continue to be obligated to complete the Operational Pilot

Integration within the specified timeframe outlined in Section VI. below. Nothing

contained herein shall alter, change, or constitute a waiver of the rights of any

party under the Railway Labor Act.

 

[EastUS]

I'd say the general concept of 'selling out', or looking out for one's own interest when it comes to a vote on a ta knows no east or west boundary. What you say is noted. How about this though, why were you guys out east so afraid of a vote every taking place? Why the mad pull out of jnc?

Was it simply because you had a plan for what you could do with the single class and craft ruling and your greater numbers? Or was there more to it than that?

Quite honestly; I've no concerns that any nic-inclusive contract would have so much as the proverbial snowball's chance in hell of passing, unless it contained literally unimaginable financial and other gains. None in my conversational circles believe otherwise. I feel it's fair to note that the "afraid of a vote" is gross error in assumption/coloration...but, in full fairness...such misunderstandings have been typical between our two groups.

I can't personally speak to/for the alpa thoughts when talks were broken off, except to offer the seemingly reasonable assumption that "the boys" were just doing everything possible to try to save the alpa "mother ship", and would likely have done/tried pretty much anything to suck up to the incredibly infuriated east contingent during that period. Any big overall strategy at that point? = Nah...at least, not in my estimation. I feel it was simply the politics of desperation...Kinda' like imagining the captain and crew of the Titanic attempting to distance themselves/their ship and all personal responsibility from the little "iceberg issue"...AFTER the impact

For what very little it's worth...I truly wish that "we" both east and west, wouldn't have ever come to this sorry mess, internecine conflict and contempt, and could be working together as mutually respectful portions of a larger group. Oh well...the old adage surfaces in thought here = "Life is what happens while you're making other plans."

Have a good one.

 

[ussnark]

Looks like the Judge is having some heart burn in the desert!
and
Nothing contained herein shall alter, change, or constitute a waiver of the rights of any party under the Railway Labor Act.

Ouch! That, is gonna leave a mark!!

 

[cleardirect]

No one could better illustrate the true nature of west "Integrity" and notions of morality in an instant.

Maybe you missed the last sentence. Or forgot what the east has been saying.

You west guys just wait 10 years and you will own the airline.

You want yours now. Let the west have what is left if anything.

 

[cleardirect]

PS: I can't help but note that a great many west posters/speakers at various meetings/etc, have previously noted that they believe for everyone that it's, in the end, all about the money, and many west posters have postulated a massive sell-out by the east Captains in favor of pay increases/etc. What I'm wondering is how the hard core support of your own captains, with any real years of seniority, who wouldn't be at all badly treated via DOH is holding up in the face of an otherwise entirely isolated/seperate ops, shrinking west?

The west is "naturally" (And sadly, True-to-Form), clearly hopeful that east LOA issues will all be resolved by way of crushing company triumphs over their "fellow pilots" out east. What happens to the actually senior west support for nic-or-nothing, should you folks find yourselves very disappointed, by way of actual union success in any east pay restoration issues?

I could be wrong..but I'd guess you've a far, far higher percentage of people out west who'd sell their young out in a heartbeat for their personal gains than currently exist out east. What I can't help but observe is that the vast majority of west posters here have little to no actual years of real seniority. What are the feelings among yours that actually have been around awhile? Just some food for thought.

Perhaps you should take a look at the usapa seniority list again.

From Dean Colello, the senior furloughed guy, to the top of the list. There are only about 340 west pilots. That places a majority of west captain BELOW east F/O’s. If you move up into the captain part of the seniority list it gets real thin. As the first west pilot does not start until number 847.

For a total of 10.3% west pilots among ACTIVE pilots at the merger. The other 90% of the west list gets mixed in with your furloughed guys.

So I am wondering how many do you think will consider themselves “not treated badlyâ€￾? There are not enough west pilots even in the middle part of usapa’s list to hold many votes. The west captains don’t even have to be “hard coreâ€￾ supporters. They can be the mildest of observers and understand that DOH kills their career.

 

[EastUS]

You west guys just wait 10 years and you will own the airline.

You want yours now.

1) What part of that do you dispute? No matter. Suit yourselves otherwise. Spend whatever years and funds required for the Holy St. Nic Crusade, and see where that actually gets you, as the isolated west contracts, shrinks, and perhaps, virtually disappears. Your choice really.

2) Huh?/WTF?/What?/etc? :blink: East flying hasn't been viably threatened by your group as yet, and appears to be both picking up some, and certainly providing the best network yields, best destinations/you name it. What "yours" are you talking about that we don't already have? "Sorry" if we're just not interested in handing it over to you on silver/Nic-plated platter

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Maybe you missed the last sentence. Or forgot what the east has been saying.

You west guys just wait 10 years and you will own the airline.

You want yours now. Let the west have what is left if anything.

And in 10 years, the DELETED BY MODERATOR will cry about being robbed and will want it again.

No pleasing these guys. Whatever you do, they will moan that its not fair. AWA should have waited till US went chapter 7, and then just picked from the remnants.

 

[cltrat]

AWA was in no cash position to pick up any remnants. Larger and stronger airlines would have swooped in and would have left AWA to shrink.
The deal to provide funding was brokered by Lakefield.

that fact is hard for some to understand

 

[Hate2fly]

And in 10 years, the will cry about being robbed and will want it again.

No pleasing these guys. Whatever you do, they will moan that its not fair. AWA should have waited till US went chapter 7, and then just picked from the remnants.

Check this out!

Z. Feasibility (11 U.S.C. §1129(a)(11)). The Plan satisfies section 1129(a)(11) of the Bankruptcy Code. The financial projections in Appendix C to the Disclosure Statement, the Lakefield Declaration, the Morrell Declaration, the Luth Declaration and evidence proffered or adduced at the Confirmation Hearing (i) are persuasive and credible, (ii) have not been controverted by other evidence or challenged in any of the objections to the Plan, and (iii) establish that the Plan is feasible and that confirmation of the Plan is not likely to be followed by the liquidation or the need for further financial reorganization of the Debtors or the Reorganized Debtors. [/b]


Dated: Alexandria, Virginia
September 16, 2005

/s/ Stephen S. Mitchell

HONORABLE STEPHEN S. MITCHELL
UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY JUDGE

Here is some more!


Without the merger, America West will continue as it has; however, we have to consider the long-term viability of our company and, with fuel prices high and industry capacity in excess, we (like most of our industry) could also face bankruptcy if those fundamentals don’t change.


Back east we know the west was making so much money that they were hiding in the Grand Canyon!

 

[Hate2fly]

Check this out!

Z. Feasibility (11 U.S.C. §1129(a)(11)). The Plan satisfies section 1129(a)(11) of the Bankruptcy Code. The financial projections in Appendix C to the Disclosure Statement, the Lakefield Declaration, the Morrell Declaration, the Luth Declaration and evidence proffered or adduced at the Confirmation Hearing (i) are persuasive and credible, (ii) have not been controverted by other evidence or challenged in any of the objections to the Plan, and (iii) establish that the Plan is feasible and that confirmation of the Plan is not likely to be followed by the liquidation or the need for further financial reorganization of the Debtors or the Reorganized Debtors. [/b]


Dated: Alexandria, Virginia
September 16, 2005

/s/ Stephen S. Mitchell

HONORABLE STEPHEN S. MITCHELL
UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY JUDGE

Here is some more!


Without the merger, America West will continue as it has; however, we have to consider the long-term viability of our company and, with fuel prices high and industry capacity in excess, we (like most of our industry) could also face bankruptcy if those fundamentals don’t change.


Back east we know the west was making so much money that they were hiding in the Grand Canyon!

Serving as sole financial, restructuring and mergers and acquisitions advisor, as well as principal advisor for arranging private equity capital to US Airways, Seabury Group:

Arranged $641 million of new private equity provided by six separate investor groups:
ACE Aviation Holdings Inc., ($75million) a Canadian holding company that owns Air Canada ;
PAR Investment Partners, L.P., ($140million) a Boston-based investment firm;
Peninsula Investment Partners, L.P., ($57 million) a Virginia-based investment firm;
Eastshore Holdings, LLC, ($125 million), which is owned by Air Wisconsin Airlines Corporation and its shareholders;
Wellington Management Company, ($170 million) a Boston-based investment firm; and
Tudor Investment Corp., ($74 million) a Greenwich, CT-based asset management firm
Advised on a public equity offering of $164 million
Advised on a convertible notes offering of $125 million
Advised on supplier financing facilities, providing $705 million in cash

I am still searching the Grand Canyon account of the west pilots to confirm that they in fact did acquire us in the east.

 

[cactusboy53]

that fact is hard for some to understand

Just like "final and binding", right?

 

[Richard]

One More Time:

There is to be NO further discussion of who bought whom...it was a MERGER.

I have deleted the posts which attempted to delve into that topic again, and the next post which tries to go there will earn the poster a short vacation.

You know what the rules are---OBSERVE THEM.

Thank you.

 

[cltrat]

Just like "final and binding", right?

I'm not a jet jockey friend, so not my fight, my work group was at least smart enough not to have anything that could put a person with ten years ahead of one with twenty five