US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[aquagreen73s]

Now, moving forward, does anybody have any legitimate ideas on how to compose a seniority list that will work for both parties.

Why not submit the matter to a professional arbitrator and have two pilot neutrals? We can see what they say. Oh, wait . . .

 

[ClueByFour]

Well well well....the all-knowing counselor finally gets it.

I predicted this outcome 2 years ago, chief. It's not that hard to see coming if you don't have the East idea of "fair."

It may indeed take millions to persuade the west to be fair in this merger...and by fair I mean...industrywide, policy-type "fair"....as opposed to a crap-shoot...winner take all.

Look at DL-NW. Compare to Nicolau, keeping in mind that both DL and NW were bankrupt at the time.

And the 20-30 year careers of East pilots are worth the price. And every union in this country will jump on this case with a vengeance if and when it goes to SFO. I agree with you for the first time ever...Wake will not try to make history here.

Unions won't touch it in SFO. It's the third rail--if the 9th circuit agrees with the West, the idea that (gasp!) a union might have to abide by (gasp!) binding arbitration will be set in stone. They don't want that. You are correct--unions don't want a loss of their ability to bargain. I don't think you are going to find that many unions agree that what USAPA is doing is "right," much less enough risking a permanently adverse ruling over. You agreed to arbitration, lost, and used the unique situation around the merger to try a DOH cramdown--reasonable people (judge and 9 jurors) disagree. So will the 9th Circuit.

As a hint: it is far more important to maintain the sanctity of arbitration than USAPA's ability to try to end-around it. If you don't see that now, nothing that I (or the court, or anyone else) can say is gonna convince you otherwise.

You guys really think you are "right" on the ability to cram down DOH (despite prior US mergers, despite other mergers, despite the arbitration). If you don't get it now, the only thing that will is gonna be by spending tons of your money on fruitless legal fees and/or living with LOA 93 until you are making the inflation adjusted wage at McDonalds.

Some pragmatism, particularly during the initial arbitration would have avoid this (in all likelihood). It's been all "stupid is as stupid does" since.

 

[oscarjazz]

This pointless banter is really such a waste of time guys. So put your pants back on, put a lid on the JackDaniels and lets try and hold back on the immature jabbing. Now, moving forward, does anybody have any legitimate ideas on how to compose a seniority list that will work for both parties. If we don't find something we both can agree on, we will not get past this. Forget DOH, forget NIC, lets grow up and start talking. If you are currently furloughed, please accept my invitation to participate in this new direction. Even though many pilots feel furloughed pilots status renders them irrelevent, I do not share this opinion and I welcome you to participate in this new constructive direction we are embarking on from this point forward. Let the discussion begin.

In the DL/NW case, the DL pilots came up with a way in mediation to address the attrition differential. We initially proposed taking a sample of the oldest 500 pilots and extracting them from the list, building the ratioed list, and then placing those pilots back in, one number senior to the pilot who was junior to them on their original list. We then have some short term conditions and restrictions to take care of the fact that the top of the list was a little heavy with NW pilots at the beginning.

The arbitration panel modified that proposal by using the oldest 274 NW pilots rather than a sample of the oldest 500. The differences were small. In the DL case, we had more of the senior pilots, the arbitrator's solution resulted in more pilots but many of them were more junior.

By the way, at the time of the DL/NW merger, both airlines had been out of bankruptcy for over a year and in terms of cash, debt, and operating margin were probably the two most financially solid carriers. Someone above seems to think we merged in bankruptcy, but that is a digression.

I see two ways of doing this. One, use the Nicolau list, which I think may be mandated by Judge Wake, and construct fences for the East. These fences would degrade over time as there are retirements and growth. Construct a formula for sharing A-330 jobs.

If there is the option of starting from scratch, then I would do it another way. I would pull out the 1000 oldest East pilots and then construct the list on a straight ratio between the pilots left, minus some furloughed East pilots. I would pick some midpoint on when pilots were recalled in 2005-2006 and place a number of East pilots at the bottom, you would need a lot more data to make that determination. Then I would reinsert those pilots that were extracted. In this case, you would have to construct fences for the West pilots, because the East pilots would be top heavy on the list. Also, you would have to have some sharing of the A-330 positions.

 

[nic4us]

OK
I consider you notified.

I forgot to mention.....enjoy Sedona!..and you might wish to check out Oak Creek Canyon and Slide Rock State Park while you are up there.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I see two ways of doing this. One, use the Nicolau list, which I think may be mandated by Judge Wake, and construct fences for the East. These fences would degrade over time as there are retirements and growth. Construct a formula for sharing A-330 jobs.
If there is the option of starting from scratch, then I would do it another way.

But that's the problem with your options...neither is DOH. Perhaps you haven't been reading the threads after your posts yesterday, but it was explained clearly that the East wanted nothing but a DOH cramdown. They threatened that at Wye River, they formed their own union, we filed a complaint in federal court, and then the Gang of Idiots sent the company a DOH list. That's right, they sent the list after being sued. That is some chutzpa. Re-read the previous threads about post Nicolau decision and then tell me with a straight face that it's possible to work with the East.

The other problem with your suggestion is if the East doesn't like the outcome, then we start this whole circle jerk again.

The best course of action for all concerned is just to finish this in the Ninth Circuit. Nic will stick, LOA 93 will be on the East ad infinitim, and that will be that. In the meantime the rest of the world will move on.

 

[exB717Flyer]

I see two ways of doing this. One, use the Nicolau list, which I think may be mandated by Judge Wake, and construct fences for the East.

Dude, are you still trying to negotiate a combined seniority list? That is so 2007.

If we could come to an agreement we would've already. Under ALPA we negotiated as equals. Now there's only the 'tyranny of the majority'. Time to accept responsibility for your actions.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I really feel sorry for the east. Honestly! Seham has them wrapped around his little finger. No matter what he says it's gospel. And all the while they have failed to realize that his every move has been ill-fated and a complete failure.

You ever seen or visited those tarot card readers? You know where you are so desperate for someone else to tell you what you want to hear? The east is clearly at this point. Sad.

 

[N924PS]

This pointless banter is really such a waste of time guys. So put your pants back on, put a lid on the JackDaniels and lets try and hold back on the immature jabbing. Now, moving forward, does anybody have any legitimate ideas on how to compose a seniority list that will work for both parties. If we don't find something we both can agree on, we will not get past this. Forget DOH, forget NIC, lets grow up and start talking. If you are currently furloughed, please accept my invitation to participate in this new direction. Even though many pilots feel furloughed pilots status renders them irrelevent, I do not share this opinion and I welcome you to participate in this new constructive direction we are embarking on from this point forward. Let the discussion begin.

What you fail to grasp, is ultimately, the Nicolau Award IS the seniority list.

Oh, it will take the full run to the Ninth Circuit Court and several hundred thousand dollars down the drain, but as unpalatable as it is, "a deal is a deal". Judge Wake got it, the 9 member jury panel got it. As much as Seham and the USAPA spin machine is keeping your hopes up for a DOH list, it ain't gonna happen.

While your invitation is admirable, what do think East/West have been doing the past few years?
Let me refresh your memory. Negotiation-Mediation-BINDING Arbitration (loved the Seham "It's only an agreement between the Merger Committee" defense)-Wye River-Addington.

The "new direction" should be to obtain a CBA that improves the lot of ALL USAirways pilots, East and West and recognizes financially the extreme longevity of the East F/O's.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

I forgot to mention.....enjoy Sedona!..and you might wish to check out Oak Creek Canyon and Slide Rock State Park while you are up there.

Thanks, it's not my first visit to Sedona though. I think it is you who said recently that under the advice of counsel, you have no intention of paying dues to the union. It should be obvious to you by now that under section 29, that is not an option. While I personally don't care as it only weakens your vote out west, it seems pointless to put your job on the line. They are going to start looking at sending people up to AH again for term soon. That is what I was talking about regarding your "notification."

I didn't read further last night after I left, but this issue is far from over. Wake will be forced to leave the democratic process intact regarding ratification going forward, Nic or no Nic. The real issue in that courtroom was not the Nic, and Wake knows it, thats why he packaged it up so nice for an appeal. The much larger question at hand needs to be handled at a higher court anyway.

 

[hp_fa]

The real issue in that courtroom was not the Nic, and Wake knows it, thats why he packaged it up so nice for an appeal. The much larger question at hand needs to be handled at a higher court anyway.

There may be real truth in that. Wake repeatedly said that he was trying to get this case into final and appealable form as soon as possible so that the parties could then appeal. I'm not inferring the trial court proceedings were a sham because they weren't, but rather I am agreeing with the premise that the real questions of law will be viewed/reviewed at a higher level then Federal District Court because law is made and decided on the appellate level.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It should be obvious to you by now that under section 29, that is not an option.

Which is precisely why USAPA will be able to pay all the damages. How can a closed shop union not have an ability to pay when there's section 29?

 

[A320 Driver]

Which is precisely why USAPA will be able to pay all the damages. How can a closed shop union not have an ability to pay when there's section 29?

If everyone will pay their dues, USAPA could write you one heck of a check!



A320 Driver B)

 

[nic4us]

Thanks, it's not my first visit to Sedona though. I think it is you who said recently that under the advice of counsel, you have no intention of paying dues to the union. It should be obvious to you by now that under section 29, that is not an option. While I personally don't care as it only weakens your vote out west, it seems pointless to put your job on the line. They are going to start looking at sending people up to AH again for term soon. That is what I was talking about regarding your "notification."

No I said in reply to hp-fa, who summized that our attorneys told us not to join, that in fact the opposite was true. That it is and was the advice of our counsel to join the union. I said I had no intention of joining, contrary to that advice. I did not say I had no intention of paying agency shop, and objecting to germane fees calculations.

As to seeking sect 29 against West pilots, there are a number of issues. First, it is likely that no West pilots will owe dues prior to Dec 08, and seeking termination for amount owed prior to that would be a mistake for USAPA. Second, when it comes to remedy and or damages, what do you think the West first suggestion will be following reimbursement of legal fees? Third, USAPA is mailing out collections to pilots on LTD and who have passed from our company( in the spiritual sense). So I would ask that the treasurer at least re-evaluate his position before he seeks the termination of our disabled brothers and sisters.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Instead, "we're goona get them hours and take them from youse guys.....waddaya think of dat?"

I think some of these West posters need to be reminded the AFA has a transition agreement as well which specifically prohibits this. It's right there on the AFA site, try reading it.

 

[TechBoy]

There may be real truth in that. Wake repeatedly said that he was trying to get this case into final and appealable form as soon as possible so that the parties could then appeal. I'm not inferring the trial court proceedings were a sham because they weren't, but rather I am agreeing with the premise that the real questions of law will be viewed/reviewed at a higher level then Federal District Court because law is made and decided on the appellate level.

Although you clearly know more about the law than the average bear, you are not right on this point. Law can be "made" at the trial court level. The appellate court can review and correct the legal interpretation of the trial court, but that fact does not change the trial court's authority in determining what the law is.

I suspect that the judge is merely trying to conclude this case so that any additional process can go forward. That is not unusual in any respect for any federal judge.