US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[hp_fa]

Although you clearly know more about the law than the average bear, you are not right on this point. Law can be "made" at the trial court level. The appellate court can review and correct the legal interpretation of the trial court, but that fact does not change the trial court's authority in determining what the law is.

I suspect that the judge is merely trying to conclude this case so that any additional process can go forward. That is not unusual in any respect for any federal judge.

I mostly disagree with your assertion but we may be discussing apples and oranges.. Trial courts mostly determine "facts", which appellate courts cannot change. However, the appellate courts can determine that the judge made erroneous decisions on what evidence was heard or jury instructions that were provided provided to the jury and order a new trial on the "facts", but the appellate courts do not determine facts or hear evidence.

Any "law" made at the trial courts is not binding on any other court and is merely instructive on how that court resolved a certain fact pattern in conjunction with certain laws. Appellate courts do have the ability to make rulings which become legal precedent for all the other courts within its jurisdiction. In the case of the 9th Circuit all inferior federal trial courts within the 9th Circuit must accept as law whatever points of law that the 9th Circuit sets forth within its various Opinions. The Opinions of the 9th Circuit are not binding on other federal circuits, but can be used as secondary authority for any points of law in those circuits. Of course the US Supreme Court's rulings set law for all inferior federal courts and, to a large extent, state courts.

 

[prechilill]

Which is precisely why USAPA will be able to pay all the damages. How can a closed shop union not have an ability to pay when there's section 29?

Especially with the union getting $35 million at the end of the year. The money will be there and if not, USAPA has demonstrated they can section 29 west pilots without difficulty, so the mechanisms are in place to fire the recalcitrants who would fail to live up to court- ordered remedies. Although, many of the hotheads out east would probably calm down enough to realize what they have been doing to the west is wrong and pay up. In the end, I have faith most of the guys east of the Mississippi are decent enough to admit they have been on the wrong side of the law.

 

[nostradamus]

Both sides have to budge on their positions, for some kind of movement to a fair resolve. America West pilots are sticking to their nic award. Us Airways pilots are sticking to their right of the transition agreement.

Like it or not no court can fool with the transition agreement.

I know you are tired of the link I will provide below. USAPA was formed because ALPA attempted to cram down an agreement by putting US Airways pilots into receivership. Nice try. The shelf live of the Nicolau award will be decided by a CBA, not a Judge. Fences make good neighbors.

The point were ALPA left and USAPA took over.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Especially with the union getting $35 million at the end of the year. The money will be there and if not, USAPA has demonstrated they can section 29 west pilots without difficulty, so the mechanisms are in place to fire the recalcitrants who would fail to live up to court- ordered remedies. Although, many of the hotheads out east would probably calm down enough to realize what they have been doing to the west is wrong and pay up. In the end, I have faith most of the guys east of the Mississippi are decent enough to admit they have been on the wrong side of the law.

The union is NOT getting $35 million at the end of the year.

The EAST pilots are getting $35 million at the end of the year.

 

[EastUS]

The union is NOT getting $35 million at the end of the year.

The EAST pilots are getting $35 million at the end of the year.

One must be properly impressed with the often expressed desires of the west posters to try and steal even that though.....I know that I certainly am

 

[jetjok1]

Hey, I have an idea. Let this thing run it's course through the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Then, if we lose (the East) again, can we move on to the idea of trying to earnestly put this thing together, work proper solutions and come together. Just my thoughts!!
...

Okay, thank you! You can go back to your verbal abusing each other again!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Hey, I have an idea. Let this thing run it's course through the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Then, if we lose (the East) again, can we move on to the idea of trying to earnestly put this thing together, work proper solutions and come together. Just my thoughts!!
...

Okay, thank you! You can go back to your verbal abusing each other again!

I don't see how that's even possible any more. It no longer even matter who wins what. The mix is permanently poisoned.

 

[prechilill]

I don't see how that's even possible any more. It no longer even matter who wins what. The mix is permanently poisoned.

You guys really outdid yourselves with the tyranny of the majority, the frivilous lawsuits thrown out of court, the DFR... Couldn't agree more!

 

[Megasnoop]

I conditionally disagree based on the Court's perception of causing the Company financial damage in any Order, Judgment or Permanent Injunction it may issue. The Court, prior to doing anything that might cause expense to the Company stated that it would need to hear the Company's position prior to any such ruling by the Court. Once the Court has heard and considered the Company's position then I would lift my conditional disagreement.

Hp, its pure fantasy for west pilots to think there will be any mini-winfall of west pilots being recalled, upgraded as an immediate remedy. The judge cannot rewrite the TA. But let them dream on. After all isnt “a deal a deal?â€￾ Well, the Appeal will determine that. BTW, weve heard of one union asking for background info so they can file an amicus brief on our behalf. And we will get our appeal. We will be heard. All this “only 5%â€￾ are heard is total nonsense. And right now, despite their anonymous postings, Don and Chips revisions of Federal law wont keep this appeal from being heard. Were in for a dime, in for a dollar. This is one that will have to be played out.

Plenty of warm feeling huh? So those west pilots who have not been shy about saying "We never wanted anything to do with you losers", "Things were great around here until we hooked our boat to the Titanic,

It gets kind of old, doesnt it, Pi? The one thing I was surprised about after jury instructions was why it took them a whole 3 hours to reach a verdict. The judge essentially told them how to vote. All the judges decisions, before/during (maybe even after) the trial will be fodder for the appeal. One thing we werent allowed to get in was a potential smoking gun, what the wests own attorney told their MEC back in August, 2005. Essentially, freund told them that they needed a TA more than the east and that the BK judge would never let the east go under. The quote is an eye-opener. Also not allowd in was freunds own brief in July 2007 that the NIC was nothing more than a bargaining position. The 9th Circuit will read about all this and so much more.

The largest single infraction was one of your former West leaders, threatening bodily harm to one of his own West pilots if they tried to join USAPA and become a representative for the West.

I believe characterizing the situation as $100 in phone calls is a slight understatement.

The jury didnt hear any of that threat, but the 9th Circuit will.

nowhere in ALPA merger policy does it call for joint ratification, quite the opposite.

Good point. In fact, no matter how many times I read the TA, I dont see where it calls for joint ratification. Not saying its not there, I just cant find it. If anyone can find it, please quote the section/sub-section.

Immediate implementation is a logical conclusion, however, I would not expect a system equiptment bid to follow. There will still be no bump and flush. Furloughs would be recalled in Nic seniority order, but there will not be displacement.

TA says no bump or flush bid. TA says there cant be any additional costs in seniority integration. Fairly clear to me. So I dont see where all the pie-in-the-sky prognostications are coming from. Wargocky isnt coming back any time soon. And one thing to keep in mind, as weak as it is, the TA sets the floor for hours/furloughs. A new contract may not, potentially leading to even more furloughs/downgrades.

Any legitimate union has nothing to worry about in the upcoming remedy. The fact is USAPA was formed to sidestep an arbitration result. Perhaps the AFL-CIO would pony up money if they felt that a unions right to bargain for the group was in jeopardy, but it is not. Wake will just reaffirm that the bargaining agent has a DFR to all of the workers in the bargaining group.

In regards to who might be willing to invest outside money to support a side, I would think the AFL-CIO would support the West to gaurantee that right of representation. Also, perhaps the American Arbitration Association would like to invest, because if USAPA were to get their way, there would be no need for them anymore, all disputes simply decided by majority rule.

If USAPA is not a legitimate union, why is AWAPA calling for wst pilots to join? Just to set the record straight, Nicolau has become an embarrassment to the NAA (thats the elite group of 890 arbs that ALPA/AFL-CIO uses). Dont confuse NAA with the AAA, which has over 17,000 members. But speaking of AFL-CIO, there will be at least one amicus brief submitted, supporting our position. Interesting reason they will. Please dont forget what the 9th will review. They wont review the jurys decision or the evidence presented at the trial. The Appeals court will investigate procedure, judges instructions, what he wouldnt allow into testimony and our claims of reversible error. AFL-CIO wont support either side financially, only with amicus briefs. El Snoopo

 

[cleardirect]

Hp, its pure fantasy for west pilots to think there will be any mini-winfall of west pilots being recalled, upgraded as an immediate remedy. The judge cannot rewrite the TA. But let them dream on. After all isnt “a deal a deal?â€￾ Well, the Appeal will determine that. BTW, weve heard of one union asking for background info so they can file an amicus brief on our behalf. And we will get our appeal. We will be heard. All this “only 5%â€￾ are heard is total nonsense. And right now, despite their anonymous postings, Don and Chips revisions of Federal law wont keep this appeal from being heard. Were in for a dime, in for a dollar. This is one that will have to be played out.

Snoop,

Credit where credit is due. No, the judge will not can not bring back the furloughed pilots. I am sorry to see that you take such pleasure in that fact.

Either Seham misunderstands the appeals process or the BPR does. First from the CLT update.

"This Appeal is automatic!!! There is no 5% rule on whether this case will be heard at the Appellate Level; it is 100% guaranteed by the law.
"
The only automatic appeal is for capital cases not civil. The decision to appeal was made by Cleary not the BPR not the pilots. The decision has to be a positive choice not automatic. The 5% is not how many are heard. The stats for cases that are not terminated. 2008 9.3%, 2007 -8%, 2006 9.1%, 2005 8.3% So it will be heard but has a small chance of being overturned. Get the facts right boys.

It gets kind of old, doesnt it, Pi? The one thing I was surprised about after jury instructions was why it took them a whole 3 hours to reach a verdict. The judge essentially told them how to vote. All the judges decisions, before/during (maybe even after) the trial will be fodder for the appeal. One thing we werent allowed to get in was a potential smoking gun, what the wests own attorney told their MEC back in August, 2005. Essentially, freund told them that they needed a TA more than the east and that the BK judge would never let the east go under. The quote is an eye-opener. Also not allowd in was freunds own brief in July 2007 that the NIC was nothing more than a bargaining position. The 9th Circuit will read about all this and so much more.

I object your honor. Relevance, hearsay. Freund was the arbitration attorney. The Nicolau was not being relitagated. This trial was about the actions of usapa not about how or why Nicolau came to his conclusion. So none of that has anything to do with this case. If you or usapa wants that in evidence somewhere file a suit against Nicolau.

The jury didnt hear any of that threat, but the 9th Circuit will.

Incorrect! Do some research.

If USAPA is not a legitimate union, why is AWAPA calling for wst pilots to join? Just to set the record straight, Nicolau has become an embarrassment to the NAA (thats the elite group of 890 arbs that ALPA/AFL-CIO uses). Dont confuse NAA with the AAA, which has over 17,000 members. But speaking of AFL-CIO, there will be at least one amicus brief submitted, supporting our position. Interesting reason they will. Please dont forget what the 9th will review. They wont review the jurys decision or the evidence presented at the trial. The Appeals court will investigate procedure, judges instructions, what he wouldnt allow into testimony and our claims of reversible error. AFL-CIO wont support either side financially, only with amicus briefs. El Snoopo

This is truly revealing. Usapa accused Leonidas or having outside support. Tried to get the judge to open the books. But now it is OK for usapa to take outside help. From now less then the AFL-CIO.

Really do you even think this through before posting or just listen to the crew room rumor and reguratate? Would this be the same parent organization of ALPA?

Think about it. I will wait.

………

ALPA the organization that has a duty to implement the Nicolau award. The organization whose merger policy that we used. The organization that usapa replaced? Come on. Really?

Yes the AAA may very well file in support of the west. It is in their best interest to have BINDING ARBITRATION mean something.

At least you stated one thing correctly. "our claims of reversible error".

 

[CapnCockroach]

In the end, I have faith most of the guys east of the Mississippi are decent enough to admit they have been on the wrong side of the law.

That's a joke. Right???

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Before I head back home, I thought I'd make a visit here to check on things.
And cleardirect, you are totally missing the bigger picture that is going to SFO. Yes, AFL-CIO will be all over this. So will Teamsters...every national union with big membership will be along for the ride on this, (exception: ALPA) here's why: because Wake may make a remedy which hinders a union right to negotiate all area's of a contract with a company as provided for by the RLA. In this instance, a new union, USAPA, MAY be constrained by Wakes remedy....key word: MAY. Every union in this country will get aboard the looming question of a union being hog-tied by a judge dealing with a document from a previous bargaining agent. The case will revolve around USAPA's right to negotiate or re-negotiate ALL inherited agreements from a prior representative union.

This issue is much larger than your Nic jibberish in the court...Wake knew it.

 

[hp_fa]

The judge cannot rewrite the TA.

Actually I believe he can judicially amend it if he decided to as long as he didn't affect the rights of any third-party, in this case the Company. However I don't expect him to do so.

The jury didnt hear any of that threat, but the 9th Circuit will.

The 9th Circuit will not hear any issues not raised in the trial court. I didn't hear anything of any threat, but perhaps it was dealt with before trial actually began.

BTW, how much has USAPA spent on litigation so far? Rumor has it that it was more than my $1 million minimum but less that my $5 million maximum.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Before I head back home, I thought I'd make a visit here to check on things.
And cleardirect, you are totally missing the bigger picture that is going to SFO. Yes, AFL-CIO will be all over this. So will Teamsters...every national union with big membership will be along for the ride on this, (exception: ALPA) here's why: because Wake may make a remedy which hinders a union right to negotiate all area's of a contract with a company as provided for by the RLA. In this instance, a new union, USAPA, MAY be constrained by Wakes remedy....key word: MAY. Every union in this country will get aboard the looming question of a union being hog-tied by a judge dealing with a document from a previous bargaining agent. The case will revolve around USAPA's right to negotiate or re-negotiate ALL inherited agreements from a prior representitive union.

This issue is much larger than your Nic jibberish in the court...Wake knew it.

Okay! Fair enough but how do you get around the idea that what you did is attempt to abrogate a binding arbitration by switching unions. Do you realize that if the 9th Circuit were see it as you wish we'd have labor groups just switching unions to get out of their obligations!!!! You guys are really stretching this. Seham has you totally fooled...

 

[nic4us]

The jury didnt hear any of that threat, but the 9th Circuit will.

Good point. In fact, no matter how many times I read the TA, I dont see where it calls for joint ratification. Not saying its not there, I just cant find it. If anyone can find it, please quote the section/sub-section.

TA says no bump or flush bid. TA says there cant be any additional costs in seniority integration. Fairly clear to me. So I dont see where all the pie-in-the-sky prognostications are coming from. Wargocky isnt coming back any time soon. And one thing to keep in mind, as weak as it is, the TA sets the floor for hours/furloughs. A new contract may not, potentially leading to even more furloughs/downgrades.

If USAPA is not a legitimate union, why is AWAPA calling for wst pilots to join? Just to set the record straight, Nicolau has become an embarrassment to the NAA (thats the elite group of 890 arbs that ALPA/AFL-CIO uses). Dont confuse NAA with the AAA, which has over 17,000 members. But speaking of AFL-CIO, there will be at least one amicus brief submitted, supporting our position. Interesting reason they will. Please dont forget what the 9th will review. They wont review the jurys decision or the evidence presented at the trial. The Appeals court will investigate procedure, judges instructions, what he wouldnt allow into testimony and our claims of reversible error. AFL-CIO wont support either side financially, only with amicus briefs. El Snoopo

Snoop,

First off, the threat of physical violence was a "I fear for your safety" not "I/We will beat you silly" so the intention of that is misleading. I did not make it, but I read the very thread in which the comment was made and in the context in which it was made.

Second, I really do not see pie-in-the-sky either, just immediate implementation of the Nic and therefore future company decisions based on that protocal.

Finally, I did not mean to say legitimate in a legal sense, but in a practical working sense. I did not think the AFL-CIO would actually support the West, I see no reason for them to support USAPA either. No union rights are being violated in this case. Union responsibilities under the RLA and NLRA are being affirmed, not degraded.

Thanks for the lesson on the National Academy of Arbitrators, perhaps they (Mr. Nicolau in particular) may wish to brief the 9th on the implications to arbitration involved with this case. I would think the AAA and the NAA both have something at stake, but I simply do not see an issue for organized labor.

What every east pilot needs to ask themselve is really quite simple.....did you vote for USAPA because there was a higher union principle to champion, or did you vote for USAPA as a possible means of getting out of the Nic? If you say the former, I will believe you, and continue to oppose your version of union priciples, if you admit the later, I will respect your honesty and we can move on.