US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[UtterlyUdder]

That wasn't a backhand. How many people here knew that "k" is legal shorthand for a contract? Be honest. I doubt very many folks who aren't in the legal field knew that or suspected it unless they guessed it by context.

In my opinion, how arrogant of you to say that. I know what "k" means. While I am at it, in my opinion, this forum....the pilot's labor thread....is populated by very few pilots and many of those who do post here are....also in my opinion, blowhards. You seem to love to pontificate and I for one don't think you are unbiased. That is again, my opinion of your posts.

This particular thread has become ridiculous. You don't seem to realize how many people read this PUBLIC forum. It has become an ego exercise and little else.

The vast majority of the people who read this forum don't post here and this will be my last one. You and the others can carry on with your delusions but many of us know what is fair and it isn't the nic award. You "westies" did get a windfall; if you didn't you wouldn't be fighting so hard to keep it.

As for what Wake does, you can pontificate until the cows come home but you and nobody else will know what he will do until he does it. The 9th Circuit awaits either or both sides.

With that, I'm outta' here and forever.

As some poster recently signed off,

"ta ta'

 

[traderjake]

That grievance was discovered, researched, prepared and fought by east pilots fully aware that they were fighting for their west colleagues and no one else. Why? Because that's what USAPA is paid to do.

And, in typical west style, it gets rubbed in our faces once again.

Tell us all how much you have enjoyed the profit sharing checks again. and how hilarious it is that we got that for you in the TA when we are, on the whole, paid so much less.

Is it any wonder why why there is such animosity? Look at that post! Not even so much as a grudging "Thank you, Dave Ciabattoni, for running this race for us."

USAPA hides behind DOH to try to steal the West's jobs and they're suppose to be grateful you throw them a few crumbs?

Get real.

 

[ClueByFour]

It's not going to go down as you think. The moment Wake violates the democratic entitlements of the Union he makes our case for us in SFO.

He probably won't, but you'd think you guys would have learned that "democratic entitlement" does not allow "abusing the minority with the majority." That some variation of this is still coming out of the East is funny.

If he convey's the Nic requiring a ratification by the East...you will retire before you see it. So keep it up.

And to think that you could've done that within ALPA and not shot millions of dollars in enriching Seeham.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

He probably won't, but you'd think you guys would have learned that "democratic entitlement" does not allow "abusing the minority with the majority." That some variation of this is still coming out of the East is funny.



And to think that you could've done that within ALPA and not shot millions of dollars in enriching Seeham.

Well well well....the all-knowing counselor finally gets it.

It may indeed take millions to persuade the west to be fair in this merger...and by fair I mean...industrywide, policy-type "fair"....as opposed to a crap-shoot...winner take all.

And the 20-30 year careers of East pilots are worth the price. And every union in this country will jump on this case with a vengeance if and when it goes to SFO. I agree with you for the first time ever...Wake will not try to make history here.

 

[Phoenix]

...

Could it be that the West has figured out that the Nic allows them to RUN from the shrinking markets out there and fall into the cockpits of some juicy 76's or 330's? Is that what all the ferver is about? I guess I don't get it.

The total transfer of the left seat of the 76 and 330 to a group who never had a chance to fly them, by the permanent exclusion of those who did, is a perfect picture of what it means to "keep your eyes on the prize".

 

[nic4us]

Judge Wake said himself that USAPA's authority as the legal bargaining agent for the group is not in question.

And that is indeed bad news for you if you keep screwing with your union.

Just a little advice for you to sleep on.

I do not question that USAPA is the legal bargaining agent for the USAirways pilots. Further, I do not question that they have the right to negotiate for the group. I do not believe that anyone has questioned or hindered their right to accomplish these responsibilities. That is why I doubt the AFL-CIO will come to USAPA's aid.

As the legally elected exclusive bargaining agent for the USAIrways pilots, USAPA has a duty to represent all employees fairly, in good faith, and without discrimination. Rearranging the seniority list to favor one group at the expense of another, seeking punitive contract provisions against a group, are examples of failure of that duty. Union members will retain the democratic vote on a CBA. But there never was a democratic right to the contents of a Tenative Agreement. The TAs are reached by negotiation, not by straw poll or vote. Some unions do not even have membership ratification.

USAPa's authority is not in question, how they have misused and intend to misuse that authority in the future is very much the question, and illegal.

I have not messed with USAPA yet, but if I decide to, well then, they are my union to screw with and there is little they can do about it.

I have some advice for the east to sleep on. You folks need to get better advice.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

I do not question that USAPA is the legal bargaining agent for the USAirways pilots. Further, I do not question that they have the right to negotiate for the group. I do not believe that anyone has questioned or hindered their right to accomplish these responsibilities. That is why I doubt the AFL-CIO will come to USAPA's aid.

As the legally elected exclusive bargaining agent for the USAIrways pilots, USAPA has a duty to represent all employees fairly, in good faith, and without discrimination. Rearranging the seniority list to favor one group at the expense of another, seeking punitive contract provisions against a group, are examples of failure of that duty. Union members will retain the democratic vote on a CBA. But there never was a democratic right to the contents of a Tenative Agreement. The TAs are reached by negotiation, not by straw poll or vote. Some unions do not even have membership ratification.

USAPa's authority is not in question, how they have misused and intend to misuse that authority in the future is very much the question, and illegal.

I have not messed with USAPA yet, but if I decide to, well then, they are my union to screw with and there is little they can do about it.

I have some advice for the east to sleep on. You folks need to get better advice.

OK
I consider you notified.

As to "fair"...while I'll let the courts do this, one rogue ruling (that has raised the ire of fellow arbitors) will not result in a flawed policy for all airlines going forward.
If it is our destiny to see to that, so be it. "Tag...you're it..." doesn't work in this world. A real workable policy is required. If it is the last thing that East USAirways pilots do after a career of disappointments.....they'll fix this for everyone else to follow.

Or, it will be fixed for them by way of SFO.

Before you go too far in explaining what a union has a duty to do...lets talk about what they are "empowered" to do. They are "empowered" to negotiate ALL....say it with me...ALL areas that require representation for ALL USAirways pilots. Now, the West has won a DFR suit as it pertains to USAPA's seniority list going forward. Does that mean thats it? Is that all there is?

No, there is a MUCH larger question of "authority" of a legal union going into SFO.

And "clue" may have gotten one.

 

[cleardirect]

OK
I consider you notified.

As to "fair"...while I'll let the courts do this, one rogue ruling (that has raised the ire of fellow arbitors) will not result in a flawed policy for all airlines going forward.
If it is our destiny to see to that, so be it. "Tag...you're it..." doesn't work in this world. A real workable policy is required. If it is the last thing that East USAirways pilots do after a career of disappointments.....they'll fix this for everyone else to follow.

Or, it will be fixed for them by way of SFO.

Before you go too far in explaining what a union has a duty to do...lets talk about what they are "empowered" to do. They are "empowered" to negotiate ALL....say it with me...ALL areas that require representation for ALL USAirways pilots. Now, the West has won a DFR suit as it pertains to USAPA's seniority list going forward. Does that mean thats it? Is that all there is?

No, there is a MUCH larger question of "authority" of a legal union going into SFO.

And "clue" may have gotten one.

It really is amazing to listen to the self righteousness flowing from the east. That somehow the east pilots think that you are protecting an industry. In reality you are a laughing stock. The rest of the industry considers you less then honorable.

The workable policy has been established. That was arbitration now followed by a federal court. The only thing left is acceptance from the east.

At least you finally admitted the true reason for this entire waste of resources. The huge lose of money for both sides. It has nothing to do with some false noble cause.

It has to do with a career of disappointments of working at US Airways. It has to do with trying to recover from a poor career choice.

Yes it will be fixed in SFO. But not the way you hope. What will happen is the federal ruling will be affirmed and further solidify the rights of the west and that of arbitration in general.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

It really is amazing to listen to the self righteousness flowing from the east. That somehow the east pilots think that you are protecting an industry. In reality you are a laughing stock. The rest of the industry considers you less then honorable.

The workable policy has been established. That was arbitration now followed by a federal court. The only thing left is acceptance from the east.

At least you finally admitted the true reason for this entire waste of resources. The huge lose of money for both sides. It has nothing to do with some false noble cause.

It has to do with a career of disappointments of working at US Airways. It has to do with trying to recover from a poor career choice.

Yes it will be fixed in SFO. But not the way you hope. What will happen is the federal ruling will be affirmed and further solidify the rights of the west and that of arbitration in general.

OK

thanks for setting me straight.

Can you get a message to Clue by four please?

 

[Tiger 1050]

OK
I consider you notified.

As to "fair"...while I'll let the courts do this, one rogue ruling (that has raised the ire of fellow arbitors) will not result in a flawed policy for all airlines going forward.
If it is our destiny to see to that, so be it. "Tag...you're it..." doesn't work in this world. A real workable policy is required. If it is the last thing that East USAirways pilots do after a career of disappointments.....they'll fix this for everyone else to follow.

Or, it will be fixed for them by way of SFO.

Before you go too far in explaining what a union has a duty to do...lets talk about what they are "empowered" to do. They are "empowered" to negotiate ALL....say it with me...ALL areas that require representation for ALL USAirways pilots. Now, the West has won a DFR suit as it pertains to USAPA's seniority list going forward. Does that mean thats it? Is that all there is?

No, there is a MUCH larger question of "authority" of a legal union going into SFO.

And "clue" may have gotten one.

Notified? Notified of what? Is that a cheap threat?

I believe that the 9th Circuit will not hear this appeal. In fact USAPA seems poised to plead that "the Nic is unfair!!!!" "We have the majority!!!" "We are a labor union, we can do what we want!"

USAPA is going to argue the wrong argument. Again! Day late and a dollar short guys...

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Notified? Notified of what? Is that a cheap threat?

I believe that the 9th Circuit will not hear this appeal. In fact USAPA seems poised to plead that "the Nic is unfair!!!!" "We have the majority!!!" "We are a labor union, we can do what we want!"

USAPA is going to argue the wrong argument. Again! Day late and a dollar short guys...

....

(ever step on an ant?)

I feel bad, but...WTF are you talking about?

I'm out....you guys need some help.

 

[Tiger 1050]

....

(ever step on an ant?)

I feel bad, but...WTF are you talking about?

I'm out....you guys need some help.

I get that I need help but...

HUH? :blink:

 

[Metroyet]

OK

Before you go too far in explaining what a union has a duty to do...lets talk about what they are "empowered" to do. They are "empowered" to negotiate ALL....say it with me...ALL areas that require representation for ALL USAirways pilots. Now, the West has won a DFR suit as it pertains to USAPA's seniority list going forward. Does that mean thats it? Is that all there is?

Unions are not "empowered" to disenfranchise the minority because their entire careers have sucked. Your definition of "empowerment" is also largely defined as "discrimination".

I would have thought that since USAPA has had it's collective "rear end" handed to itself at every legal turn over the last several months that this fact would be self evident. I guess not.

Reading your fake unions illegal updates makes me that much more certain that your future is vastly more bleak than you have thus far imagined. Hopefully, nobody on the East is dumb enough to believe that all of this is not cataloged and ready for admission to your "hostile" Judge. The inmates are running the asylum. Somewhere, a level head needs to take over for these lunatics.

 

[traderjake]

It appears that Judge Wake might just be about to make some case law that may hinder the operations of unions everywhere. .

Unions should be hindered from conducting illegal operations.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

This pointless banter is really such a waste of time guys. So put your pants back on, put a lid on the JackDaniels and lets try and hold back on the immature jabbing. Now, moving forward, does anybody have any legitimate ideas on how to compose a seniority list that will work for both parties. If we don't find something we both can agree on, we will not get past this. Forget DOH, forget NIC, lets grow up and start talking. If you are currently furloughed, please accept my invitation to participate in this new direction. Even though many pilots feel furloughed pilots status renders them irrelevent, I do not share this opinion and I welcome you to participate in this new constructive direction we are embarking on from this point forward. Let the discussion begin.