US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[spike99]

It really is amazing to listen to the self righteousness flowing from the east. That somehow the east pilots think that you are protecting an industry. In reality you are a laughing stock. The rest of the industry considers you less then honorable.

The workable policy has been established. That was arbitration now followed by a federal court. The only thing left is acceptance from the east.

At least you finally admitted the true reason for this entire waste of resources. The huge lose of money for both sides. It has nothing to do with some false noble cause.

It has to do with a career of disappointments of working at US Airways. It has to do with trying to recover from a poor career choice.

Yes it will be fixed in SFO. But not the way you hope. What will happen is the federal ruling will be affirmed and further solidify the rights of the west and that of arbitration in general.

Funny none of the AA or SWA pilots I've talked to seem to think US Airways pilots are the laughing stock of the industry. Do yoy have any actual facts, qoutes, or personal information to substantiate your claims.

I'm also not sure I understand your response about the recent court decision, numerous other West posters have stated the Nic list was not what was presented before the court in Phoenix, but the failure to equally represent the West pilots whom fall under the new union (USAPA). Of course I believe the failure of the court to consider the NIC list will be one of the reasons which lead to the approval of the appeal, but I don't think you can have it both ways.

Finnally, your ascertation that anyone is trying to recover from a poor career choice in this industry is simply absurd. Almost anyone I've ever talked to about which airline to go with has almost unanimously said whicever one hires you first (I first started having these conversations in the mid 1980s). Your insinuation that your accepting employment at AW in anyway makes you superior to any other pilot is in itself laughable.

The only thing any of us have is our DOH/LOS, I would have easily agreed to a LOS slotting for the entire East list. Granted, some of the West Captains might have taken a slight step back, they would have quickly moved up with the known attrition and average age of the East pilots. The NIC list (without any fences) will place a substantial number of younger pilots ahead of pilots which then will almost surely never be able to upgrade. Of course in your mind, this is not a windfall. Ask the West furloughed pilots if they think they should be placed behind all active pilots in the event of another merger.

We have nothing to lose on the East by waiting for a final decision about the appeal, but a tremendous amount to lose with an unincumbered NIC list. If you believe Scotty and the braintrust about the expiration of the pay rates with LOA 93, it really doesn't matter to us.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Okay! Fair enough but how do you get around the idea that what you did is attempt to abrogate a binding arbitration by switching unions. Do you realize that if the 9th Circuit were see it as you wish we'd have labor groups just switching unions to get out of their obligations!!!! You guys are really stretching this. Seham has you totally fooled...

And a union is what? a democratically elected representative agent for a collection of employees.
If a prior agent (ALPA) no longer suited the desires of a majority of employees, they are entitled to change representation under the law. That YOU equate that with some "work-around" is theory on your part....and theories don't win court cases.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

BTW, how much has USAPA spent on litigation so far? Rumor has it that it was more than my $1 million minimum but less that my $5 million maximum.

Who cares? Under an unchecked Nic, HUNDREDS of east pilots will NEVER upgrade to left seat. That $$ difference over hundreds of pilots is MUCH more than the legal fees of this process.

Stop infatuating over the costs, the legal precident is too important to be obscured by questions of litigation fees.

 

[Tiger 1050]

And a union is what? a democratically elected representative agent for a collection of employees.
If a prior agent (ALPA) no longer suited the desires of a majority of employees, they are entitled to change representation under the law. That YOU equate that with some "work-around" is theory on your part....and theories don't win court cases.

Sir, it's not only what I equate but what almost anyone else would logically equate after having read the letters from S. Bradford! No theory. Fact!

I do not dispute the ability of the majority to change their representation. YOU must realize that USAPA had inherited the Nicolau award. Seniority had already been determined. By a process both sides agreed upon. It's all there in the transcripts. Seham is twisting your logic. You must see this!

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Sir, it's not only what I equate but what almost anyone else would logically equate after having read the letters from S. Bradford! I do not dispute the ability of the majority to change their representation. YOU must realize that USAPA had inherited the Nicolau award. Seniority had already been determined. By a process both sides agreed upon. It's all there in the transcripts. Seham is twisting your logic. You must see this!

And sir, did not the company and USAPA CHANGE your west contract over this age 65 thing, or whatever? (sorry, I don't know much about it...something about upgrades and age)...was that not a CHANGE TO AN INHERITED FINAL AND BINDING DOCUMENT?...It's done, And some of the west guys are pissed over it. Again, sorry I'm not familiar enough to be clear.

The point is this: EVERY agreement we collectively have right now today....West CBA, EAST CBA, and TA...were ALL "final and binding on the parties"...namely: the company and ALPA west or ALPA east.

ALPA west has already been modified.

Can you explain to me the difference?

 

[cleardirect]

This goes to the be careful what you wish for category.

We are now hearing that all these other unions are going to come rushing to the aid of usapa. Because the ability to negotiate any and all portions of the contract is somehow a God given right. A right that no court or deal can change.

Following your logic. Imagine a merger between UAL and US Airways. The majority of UAL are still angry with the last encounter they had with the east. So the west pilots and UAL pilots form a majority alliance and decide that the east pilot need a lesson in majority rules. For the purpose of union building and harmony among the union members.

I guess a relative merger between the west and UAL with a staple of the east would be perfectly acceptable to all concerned right? Majority rules, a union has to have the ability to negotiate ALL of the sections. It is in the best interest of most of the group.

It is a merger without a sealed deal. After all Rakestraw was from UAL. Seham has quoted it many times the union has the ability to reorder a list. Enjoy the minority position if that occurs.

 

[ROACLT]

This goes to the be careful what you wish for category.

We are now hearing that all these other unions are going to come rushing to the aid of usapa. Because the ability to negotiate any and all portions of the contract is somehow a God given right. A right that no court or deal can change.

Following your logic. Imagine a merger between UAL and US Airways. The majority of UAL are still angry with the last encounter they had with the east. So the west pilots and UAL pilots form a majority alliance and decide that the east pilot need a lesson in majority rules. For the purpose of union building and harmony among the union members.

I guess a relative merger between the west and UAL with a staple of the east would be perfectly acceptable to all concerned right? Majority rules, a union has to have the ability to negotiate ALL of the sections. It is in the best interest of most of the group.

It is a merger without a sealed deal. After all Rakestraw was from UAL. Seham has quoted it many times the union has the ability to reorder a list. Enjoy the minority position if that occurs.

One big difference. DOH isn't arbitrary and has been referred to as the gold standard in seniority at the appellate level, what you suggest is.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

This goes to the be careful what you wish for category.

We are now hearing that all these other unions are going to come rushing to the aid of usapa. Because the ability to negotiate any and all portions of the contract is somehow a God given right. A right that no court or deal can change.

Following your logic. Imagine a merger between UAL and US Airways. The majority of UAL are still angry with the last encounter they had with the east. So the west pilots and UAL pilots form a majority alliance and decide that the east pilot need a lesson in majority rules. For the purpose of union building and harmony among the union members.

I guess a relative merger between the west and UAL with a staple of the east would be perfectly acceptable to all concerned right? Majority rules, a union has to have the ability to negotiate ALL of the sections. It is in the best interest of most of the group.

It is a merger without a sealed deal. After all Rakestraw was from UAL. Seham has quoted it many times the union has the ability to reorder a list. Enjoy the minority position if that occurs.

No, UAL ALPA after witnessing the bastardization of the Nic have already moved toward a more DOH/LOS position and have petitioned ALPA accordingly.

And you will never successfully argue that a NMB sanctioned union can only bargain on sections 1,2,3 but not 4,5,6 going forward when they are either new with no inhertited baggage, or have lots of inhertited baggage.

Never.

And this is the larger picture you guys are missing.

A few people in the courtroom got it. Wake, for one.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Can you explain to me the difference?

I'll ask again.

 

[ClueByFour]

And we will get our appeal. We will be heard. All this “only 5%â€￾ are heard is total nonsense. And right now, despite their anonymous postings, Don and Chips revisions of Federal law wont keep this appeal from being heard.

That's true, actually. You will be heard.

What comes of that is another ball of wax.

One thing we werent allowed to get in was a potential smoking gun, what the wests own attorney told their MEC back in August, 2005. Essentially, freund told them that they needed a TA more than the east and that the BK judge would never let the east go under. The quote is an eye-opener. Also not allowd in was freunds own brief in July 2007 that the NIC was nothing more than a bargaining position. The 9th Circuit will read about all this and so much more.

My bold prediction is that they:

1. Read it.

2. Decide (as wake did) that it's immaterial.

3. Move on.

You are trying to litigate Nicolau again. That's not what the DFR is about.

It's only an "eye opener" if you are trying to monday morning QB the arbitration award. Wake did not (I personally felt he went too far in that regard--he gave the East way more latitude than he should've on the "fairness" of the award). My feeling is that the 9th Circus won't either, but then again--I said more than a year ago that the end-around was not gonna work.

The jury didnt hear any of that threat, but the 9th Circuit will.

Ever see White Men Can't Jump? "The 9th Circuit will listen to you, but won't hear you."

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

You're not as smart as I initially thought.

Good news: you're not alone.

 

[cleardirect]

One big difference. DOH isn't arbitrary and has been referred to as the gold standard in seniority at the appellate level, what you suggest is.

NWA/DAL is relative not DOH. Looks like that gold is starting to tarnish.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It's only an "eye opener" if you are trying to monday morning QB the arbitration award. Wake did not (I personally felt he went too far in that regard--he gave the East way more latitude than he should've on the "fairness" of the award). My feeling is that the 9th Circus won't either, but then again--I said more than a year ago that the end-around was not gonna work.

Judge Wake even allowed Brengle a few "re-crosses." Seriously. USAPA had all kinds of latitude and it's an absolute joke for them to say their hands were tied. Hardly.

The fact is there's no errors to be found in the record. Move along now!

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

NWA/DAL is relative not DOH. Looks like that gold is starting to tarnish.

I salute your survival skills: my questions were much too hard.

Do let us all know when the think-tank has cooked up an appropriate response, would you?

 

[aquagreen73s]

I think some of these West posters need to be reminded the AFA has a transition agreement as well which specifically prohibits this. It's right there on the AFA site, try reading it.

Think again. The F/As TA has no concern over who's driving. Nothing in there says that East F/As can only fly with East pilots.