US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[exB717Flyer]

Man, I'm glad he was so smart, I wouldn't want any prolonged conflict here.

I know you're being facetious but the conflict I'm talking about isn't bad feelings but actual integration disputes. The fences from NW/RP and TW/OZ lasted for decades and there were constant disputes that needed to be resolved by a DRC (Dispute Resolution Committee).

Once we have combined operations the vast majority of pilots will be professionals and do their jobs and once again try to have fun at work. With no fences to dispute about being happy will be a conscious choice. The doom-and-gloomers here who predict unending conflict are being purely self-serving.

 

[Waketurbulence]

"In my opinion", Judge Wake is no idiot. He knows exactaly what usapa has done, and what they intend to do. Delay, delay, delay! I don't think he is going to allow it.

I beleive he has taken the extra time to discuss what his remedy "could" be with the company. He has stated thruout that he does not want to see us back in front of him, that he does not want to tell the company how to run their business and especially he does not want his remedy to cost the company money. So, "in my opinion" he is going to do whatever he can "legally" do to the fullest extent of the law, knowing that usapa is going to appeal, and delay things. I beleive he is going issue an injunction cementing the Nic' by implementing it immediatly.

One of the remedy's sought by the plaintiff's was "(3) Order directing the Airline to begin using the Nicolau Award for promotions and furloughs by a date certain, even if a single CBA is not yet finalized"

The Judge has the authority under law to grant such a remedy under case law "Bernard v ALPA"

I said this a while ago and I'm going to say it again.

I suggested and still suggest that the Judge as remedy will immediatly implement the Nicalau Seniority List. Doing this would NOT harm the company in any way (financially) nor would it harm any pilot on that list (every pilot would stay exactally where they presently are). It would allow each and every pilot to bid their proper Nic seniority. Should a West pilot choose to locate east for a given vacancy, they would do so knowing they would have to work under the east contract. Same would hold true for an east pilot wanting to move West. The furloughed pilots could bid any vacancy their seniority would hold, and a junior pilot at that could not hold a bid position would be furloughed in the order they should have been originally.

Full implementation would take the issue of the intentional delay out of the picture and would create a "virtual fence" for all domiciles, meaning for example, few West pilots would bid east knowing they would do so under LOA93 but some just might. All this while maintaining seperate ops as outlined by the transition agerement. It would also push each side towards a common goal of a single contract.

I beleive the company would have no problem letting Judge Wake make that decision, and would probably be releived that the issue would be finally closed.


B)

 

[hp_fa]

Maybe I am just too mercenary, but I only do this job for money. Anything that puts more money in the pockets of both East and West seems like a good thing to me. I know this is easy for me to say because I am not living the emotions of either side. I see two sides that are fighting each other to the death and their airline is failing at least in part due to that. I have a hard time seeing any winners under the current path.

Your points are well taken.

I come back to the practical issues before both USAPA and the West folks and that is who represents the West in any such discussions when USAPA is the sole bargaining agent and West is about to have a permanent injunction against USAPA. Previously such issues were discussed by union sponsored merger committees that represented each side. Now those no longer exist. I don't think that the West representatives to the BPR are a functional equivalent. So, before we even potentially have such a discussion, who represents the parties?

One more thing. If I heard what was said in Court regarding the power of a USAPA negotiating committee correctly, then in any collective bargaining session with the Company the USAPA negotiators would not have the power to TA any section of the proposed contract with such power lying solely in the BPR. So, if I am correct, I wonder why the Company would negotiate with anyone who doesn't have the power to agree to anything.

If my understanding is incorrect I would welcome a clarification of what I heard in court.

 

[hp_fa]

One of the remedy's sought by the plaintiff's was "(3) Order directing the Airline to begin using the Nicolau Award for promotions and furloughs by a date certain, even if a single CBA is not yet finalized"

The Judge has the authority under law to grant such a remedy under case law "Bernard v ALPA"

I said this a while ago and I'm going to say it again.

I suggested and still suggest that the Judge as remedy will immediatly implement the Nicalau Seniority List. Doing this would NOT harm the company in any way (financially) nor would it harm any pilot on that list (every pilot would stay exactally where they presently are). It would allow each and every pilot to bid their proper Nic seniority. Should a West pilot choose to locate east for a given vacancy, they would do so knowing they would have to work under the east contract. Same would hold true for an east pilot wanting to move West. The furloughed pilots could bid any vacancy their seniority would hold, and a junior pilot at that could not hold a bid position would be furloughed in the order they should have been originally.

I conditionally disagree based on the Court's perception of causing the Company financial damage in any Order, Judgment or Permanent Injunction it may issue. The Court, prior to doing anything that might cause expense to the Company stated that it would need to hear the Company's position prior to any such ruling by the Court. Once the Court has heard and considered the Company's position then I would lift my conditional disagreement.

 

[Pi brat]

I know you're being facetious but the conflict I'm talking about isn't bad feelings but actual integration disputes. The fences from NW/RP and TW/OZ lasted for decades and there were constant disputes that needed to be resolved by a DRC (Dispute Resolution Committee).

Once we have combined operations the vast majority of pilots will be professionals and do their jobs and once again try to have fun at work. With no fences to dispute about being happy will be a conscious choice. The doom-and-gloomers here who predict unending conflict are being purely self-serving.

On this I can agree with you. Twenty year fences have created big problems, but other agreements with shorter fences have smoothed the transition. I think they would have maybe headed this off here, but hey, that's just my opinion.

I feel very strongly that after this is all over we will be professionals, we will get along, and most of us we forge many new friendships. That is what has happened in every merger we have had.

 

[Waketurbulence]

The Court, prior to doing anything that might cause expense to the Company stated that it would need to hear the Company's position prior to any such ruling by the Court. Once the Court has heard and considered the Company's position then I would lift my conditional disagreement.

Uh, HP, that is what I said...

"I beleive he has taken the extra time to discuss what his remedy "could" be with the company. "

 

[Pi brat]

Didn't start out that way. There was plenty of warm feelings in the West for the East and unfortunately that was met with Easts' "our way or the highway" attitude. It was quickly apparent that you guys didn't learn anything from the United experience nor was there any humble pie from your two trips into BK and a near death experience.

A jury of nine unanimously agreed who the culpable party is here. Did you miss that one?

Never had one? Well, you must have been the ONLY East pilot without one because when I was in East domiciles during the election campaign I didn't see one pilot not wearing one. Heck, I saw a check airman wearing one!

So...seriously...how's that yellow lanyard working out for you at $124 an hour and Mesa workrules?

Plenty of warm feeling huh? So those west pilots who have not been shy about saying "We never wanted anything to do with you losers", "Things were great around here until we hooked our boat to the Titanic", "Parker should have waited until you went chpt 7 and picked up the pieces", etc, were spreading warm feelings? You met every east pilot and know how they felt/feel? Any chance you ran into the 5-10% crowd. Humble pie? You worked for AWA not British Airways , Singapore, or even Southwest. Maybe you should try a slice.

I'm not too happy with the way things have gone around here. So...seriously.............how's that sticker and the 2nd worst contract in the business working our for you?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Plenty of warm feeling huh? So those west pilots who have not been shy about saying "We never wanted anything to do with you losers", "Things were great around here until we hooked our boat to the Titanic", "Parker should have waited until you went chpt 7 and picked up the pieces", etc, were spreading warm feelings?

Well, I did hear that a lot...AFTER your Nicolau reaction, AFTER your storm on Herndon, AFTER your near unanimous support to use your padded majority status (padded because US Air was recalling furloughees thanks to America West) and then having the absolute chutzpa to use that majority to rewrite an agreement for the sole benefit of the East and the sole detriment of the West. Then.... you (plural) didn't stop there. How about using a collective bargaining agent to sue 18 individual pilots whose largest single infraction might have been a $100 in phone calls. So...after all we've been through with you guys...you should understand there's "some" raw feelings about you (plural). So yes...AFTER all of that I'm sure there were West pilots making those comments and after everything you (plural) have done...it's true.

I'm not too happy with the way things have gone around here. So...seriously.............how's that sticker and the 2nd worst contract in the business working our for you?

A lot better than the bottom contract. I'd love to get a better K, but since the majority can't figure out how to wake up each day and just be ethical for once, I suspect we in the West are resigned to this situation.

 

[Pi brat]

Well, I did hear that a lot...AFTER your Nicolau reaction, AFTER your storm on Herndon, AFTER your near unanimous support to use your padded majority status (padded because US Air was recalling furloughees thanks to America West) and then having the absolute chutzpa to use that majority to rewrite an agreement for the sole benefit of the East and the sole detriment of the West. Then.... you (plural) didn't stop there. How about using a collective bargaining agent to sue 18 individual pilots whose largest single infraction might have been a $100 in phone calls. So...after all we've been through with you guys...you should understand there's "some" raw feelings about you (plural). So yes...AFTER all of that I'm sure there were West pilots making those comments and after everything you (plural) have done...it's true.

A lot better than the bottom contract. I'd love to get a better K, but since the majority can't figure out how to wake up each day and just be ethical for once, I suspect we in the West are resigned to this situation.

I heard all of those expressions before any of the events you mentioned. We are pretty resigned too, so on that we agree. Have a good day.

 

[Planemx]

Anger
Denial
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

On Death and Dying.....could it be the future of this airline and indeed all of us?

 

[hp_fa]

A lot better than the bottom contract. I'd love to get a better K, but since the majority can't figure out how to wake up each day and just be ethical for once, I suspect we in the West are resigned to this situation.

Remember to speak English. They don't know legaleze, in this case "k".

 

[Pi brat]

Remember to speak English. They don't know legaleze, in this case "k".

Thanks for that little backhand hp. Guess you are done being unbiased.

 

[nostradamus]

How about using a collective bargaining agent to sue 18 individual pilots whose largest single infraction might have been a $100 in phone calls.

The largest single infraction was one of your former West leaders, threatening bodily harm to one of his own West pilots if they tried to join USAPA and become a representative for the West.

I believe characterizing the situation as $100 in phone calls is a slight understatement.

 

[hp_fa]

Thanks for that little backhand hp. Guess you are done being unbiased.

That wasn't a backhand. How many people here knew that "k" is legal shorthand for a contract? Be honest. I doubt very many folks who aren't in the legal field knew that or suspected it unless they guessed it by context.

 

[nic4us]

"In my opinion", Judge Wake is no idiot. He knows exactaly what usapa has done, and what they intend to do. Delay, delay, delay! I don't think he is going to allow it.

One of the remedy's sought by the plaintiff's was "(3) Order directing the Airline to begin using the Nicolau Award for promotions and furloughs by a date certain, even if a single CBA is not yet finalized"

The Judge has the authority under law to grant such a remedy under case law "Bernard v ALPA"

I said this a while ago and I'm going to say it again.

I suggested and still suggest that the Judge as remedy will immediatly implement the Nicalau Seniority List. Doing this would NOT harm the company in any way (financially) nor would it harm any pilot on that list (every pilot would stay exactally where they presently are). It would allow each and every pilot to bid their proper Nic seniority. Should a West pilot choose to locate east for a given vacancy, they would do so knowing they would have to work under the east contract. Same would hold true for an east pilot wanting to move West. The furloughed pilots could bid any vacancy their seniority would hold, and a junior pilot at that could not hold a bid position would be furloughed in the order they should have been originally.

B)

I believe the original intent of joint ratification in the TA, was to have leverage against the company, not to allow either side veto rights over the binding arbitration. The TA was written far in advance of the seniority integration process. When the TA was written it was not known how the seniority negotiations would end. i.e. we could have worked something out in mediation or earlier. Another thing is the TA calls for seniority integration following ALPA merger policy, and nowhere in ALPA merger policy does it call for joint ratification, quite the opposite.

Immediate implementation is a logical conclusion, however, I would not expect a system equiptment bid to follow. There will still be no bump and flush. Furloughs would be recalled in Nic seniority order, but there will not be displacement.