US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[flytchick]

Ahhh....a well thought out and easily followed argument as to how we should move on. Thanks hp fa. Judge Wake will take careful time to pen what he perceives as a reasonable injunctive order. The extra time announced will help him put together something that will be most difficult to undermine.

What an unfortunate and unnessesary waste of time and money to achieve what should have been accepted at the completion of the merger process.

Have you checked out the USAPA newsletter? Legal fees ----------------ONE MILLION, 558 THOUSAND 059 DOLLARS. Wow union dues at work plus no salary increase for 2 years. What a waste of time and money.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

To begin with, the we've won attitude of the West posters is almost comedic. Judge Wake left an enormous amount of room for an apeal by the amount of information he did not let the jury consider in their findings. He almost exclusively allowed any information pertaining to the Final and binding arbitration of the Nic to be included, without any of the history or circumstances to that finding be admitted. Said award, was based on the findings of an arbitrator assigned by the previous bargaining agent, and not assigned by any legal entity. Of course, none of this was allowed by Judge Wake. He also did not allow any facts of the differences of the findings, there was sufficient testimony, but he reminded the jury they could not consider that in the final judgements.

You continue to champion the NW/DAL merger as an equal to this situation, what you fail to mention is the complete disparities of the two pilot groups. Primarily, the fact their groups were of very similar demographics. It's true, NWA had a senior group, but the increases in pay for their group alleviated the lost seniority of a much similar group, this is not the case in the US Airways and AW merger. The entire premise of the Nic award was of the failed US carrier and the vibrant AW partner. In all documents, testimonies and actual performances since the award, this has been illustrated to be a false premise. You contend it was a straightforwrd slotting, but in the slotting of US Airways and AW you completely discount the 1800+ furloghed pilots of US Airways, even though it is the US Airways side which brings the majority of the attrition. Did not both ALPA contracts say individuals on the respective seniority lists were on the seniority lists.

In addition, why did AW continue to hire pilots while they had already started talks with US Airways about a potential merger. Interestingly why after the first rounds nothing was agreed to, but afterwards (500 more furloughs) and LOA 93, they were able to come to and agreement. Lets get Doug, Scott, Bruce and all of the other players under oath and ask if this had anything to do with the final structuring. A structuring which greatly advantaged the West.

Imagine that, a "we won" attitude from the side that won, in court. Shocking!

How about the "we will screw the west and abrogate our responsibility in binding arbitration" attitude from USAPA?

How did that work for you?

Oh yeah, your side lost in court.

As for an appeal, well, follow the yellow brick road, maybe you will meet the wizard. Or maybe you can realize that spending tons more money you squeeze out from pilots in a losing cause is not the way to go.

Denial, no, its not a river in Egypt.

Move on. Acceptance will be your friend.

 

[ontheairbus]

Clear and HP,

Fantastic posts!

 

[electricjet98]

The end of June judge Wake will issue his remedy . My prediction is that it is going to be very comprehensive and very tight. Little wiggle room for usapa to play games.

A long delay in contract negotiations. With the company locked into the Nicolau I expect usapa to drag their feet for awhile.

A little less clear would be another merger. With this comes all of the unknowns.

The fourth of July for usapa and the east could be a really bad holiday this year.

You may be 100% correct, but I see it a lttle differently. What I picked-up from the various sidebar transcripts was that Judge Wake was very hesitant on going past anything more than simply requiring that the Nic be attached to any CBA that USAPA brings to the pilots for a vote. Now with JUST that, USAPA could delay negotiations indefinitely or the east could simply continue to vote down any TA's brought to them. That is where the court appearance on damages in August could be key. Just lost pay suffered by the furloughees, pilots knocked down from line-holder to reserve and pilots downgraded from captain to fo will be extremely pricey. Add in the loss of replacement insurance for the fuloughees and lost or reduced 401k contributions and earnings. Don't forget our legal expenses to correct USAPA's failures! Would the financial losses incurred by our pilots that have suffered forclosure or had to give-up their vehicles be compensated...I don't know. Now all of those losses starting from the first furlough to the court date for damages, plus interest will add up to a hefty price tag of perhaps several thousand per east pilot, but it doesn't end there. Every day that our pilots continue to suffer a loss due to USAPA's failure of DFR, will only add to the expense and create the need for a monthly assesment in the hundereds of dollars. Eventually, the continueing costs of east pilots intrangience and efforts to delay justice will be simply overwhelming. Eventually, anyone with a lick of common sense will say "enough is enough"!

And then, justice will prevail!

 

[electricjet98]

As for an appeal, well, follow the yellow brick road, maybe you will meet the wizard. Or maybe you can realize that spending tons more money you squeeze out from pilots in a losing cause is not the way to go.

Does anyone know, if the appealant fails on the appeal are they automatically liable for the legal expenses of the opposing counsel

 

[Pi brat]

Long-term fences are a thing of the past because all they do is foster prolonged conflict.

Man, I'm glad he was so smart, I wouldn't want any prolonged conflict here.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

You may be 100% correct, but I see it a lttle differently. What I picked-up from the various sidebar transcripts was that Judge Wake was very hesitant on going past anything more than simply requiring that the Nic be attached to any CBA that USAPA brings to the pilots for a vote. Now with JUST that, USAPA could delay negotiations indefinitely or the east could simply continue to vote down any TA's brought to them. That is where the court appearance on damages in August could be key. Just lost pay suffered by the furloughees, pilots knocked down from line-holder to reserve and pilots downgraded from captain to fo will be extremely pricey. Add in the loss of replacement insurance for the fuloughees and lost or reduced 401k contributions and earnings. Don't forget our legal expenses to correct USAPA's failures! Would the financial losses incurred by our pilots that have suffered forclosure or had to give-up their vehicles be compensated...I don't know. Now all of those losses starting from the first furlough to the court date for damages, plus interest will add up to a hefty price tag of perhaps several thousand per east pilot, but it doesn't end there. Every day that our pilots continue to suffer a loss due to USAPA's failure of DFR, will only add to the expense and create the need for a monthly assesment in the hundereds of dollars. Eventually, the continueing costs of east pilots intrangience and efforts to delay justice will be simply overwhelming. Eventually, anyone with a lick of common sense will say "enough is enough"!

And then, justice will prevail!

Well, you started off strong, but faded early into your close. You are correct in your analysis of Wakes sidebars and the Nic...heck, all one has to do is read them without "Nicvision" for a second.

Where you roll into the weeds is this idea that USAPA is culpable for your furlough damages. Recall that you also named the company in this lawsuit...remember? not enforcing the Nic right away?...yadayadayada...

Remember that Wake cut the company loose immediately because of seperate operations? There is no way to use that same failed argument again on USAPA...for the same reasons as the company walked.
Lets review:

Who furloughed anybody? the company
Who had charges dismissed? the company

And now you want to pin those losses on USAPA when they will make the exact same claim of seperate operations? Look, the company couldn't furlough via the Nic in the same manner as USAPA couldn't prevent furloughs via the Nic.

HELLO?

Good luck.

 

[cubfan]

I'm all for addressing some of their concerns, but not when the other party is a bully.

lynyrdskynyrd,

Just curious, what concerns would you be willing to address? I'm interested if that would be just you, or as a collective group. That idea may be enough to start moving forward.

Thanks

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Rant and rave all you east guys want. In 45 days we are going to be living in a new world. There are events lining up that are going to completely change the dynamics of our situation.

The end of June judge Wake will issue his remedy . My prediction is that it is going to be very comprehensive and very tight. Little wiggle room for usapa to play games.

The Suzie arbitration should be decided. If she wins that it would be a $2 million loss for the Seham law firm, I mean the union.

The block hour arbitration should be issued. This could be a shift in block hours from the east to the west. Possibility of bringing back up to 100 west pilots. Guess what happens to the east pilots?

A long delay in contract negotiations. With the company locked into the Nicolau I expect usapa to drag their feet for awhile. The other possibility is the company walks away from the table because as long as usapa has appealed there is no way to get a contract. The company is not going to waste their time with usapa until there is a final decision. Two years form now before they start again. Willing to hold out at least three to four more years?

A little less clear would be another merger. With this comes all of the unknowns.

The fourth of July for usapa and the east could be a really bad holiday this year.

(In45dayswe'regonnagetthoseguys,we'regonnasockittothemrealgoodandthen
we'llbeinchargeandthenthingswillbenormailandontop.NopethoseEastguysth
inkthey'resmartbutwhenwewinthissummerWakeisgonnasockittothemrealgoodlikean
ythingman.Justwaitandsee,you'llsee....)

ugh...sad.

Lets just see what Wake comes up with.. shall we? If you keep beating your chest, your gonna leave a bruise.

 

[cubfan]

Just another thought, alot has been said on both sides about what will or will not happen if a TA is presented, I'm not sure I could get a read on that yet. If you want some sort of a read, for a while when you go to work ask as many pilots you want, If or when the the NIC is it, would you as an individual vote no indefinitely, what would you need to see in a TA to vote yes, I may try this to see if I could begin to see some sort of picture as to the overall feelings of this pilot group.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Just another thought, alot has been said on both sides about what will or will not happen if a TA is presented, I'm not sure I could get a read on that yet. If you want some sort of a read, for a while when you go to work ask as many pilots you want, If or when the the NIC is it, would you as an individual vote no indefinitely, what would you need to see in a TA to vote yes, I may try this to see if I could begin to see some sort of picture as to the overall feelings of this pilot group.

Take a stroll around the CLT crewroom...all I hear is NO. Not, "well, if it was this much this and this..." I'll go so far as to say that without a fence, it ain't gonna happen. Ask around. And thats CLT...I can only imagine what is happening in PHL. Once Dec 31st rolls around and restoration issues are dealt with, and a potential appeal is dealt with, (one way or the other) I'd guess the joint CBA is going to be very creative.

 

[prechilill]

USAPA got a full mouth extraction last week, dentures will be coming by the end of June. Right now they are learning basic pronunciations again.
Stupid people do stupid things, like smoke, do drugs, or fight the IRS over a couple hundred dollars. Every day we see new ways for people to demonstrate their stupidity. How entertaining...

 

[cubfan]

Take a stroll around the CLT crewroom...all I hear is NO. Not, "well, if it was this much this and this..." I'll go so far as to say that without a fence, it ain't gonna happen. Ask around. And thats CLT...I can only imagine what is happening in PHL. Once Dec 31st rolls around and restoration issues are dealt with, and a potential appeal is dealt with, (one way or the other) I'd guess the joint CBA is going to be very creative.

I agree, it may very well take all those issues to run it's course. Plus what is said in the crewroom and what really happens has been in the past 2 different things.

 

[prechilill]

Just another thought, alot has been said on both sides about what will or will not happen if a TA is presented, I'm not sure I could get a read on that yet. If you want some sort of a read, for a while when you go to work ask as many pilots you want, If or when the the NIC is it, would you as an individual vote no indefinitely, what would you need to see in a TA to vote yes, I may try this to see if I could begin to see some sort of picture as to the overall feelings of this pilot group.

The plantiffs are well aware of this stall- indefinitely tactic and will address it in the proposed remedy. No need to worry about your fellow pilots obstructing forward progress, we are taking care of it.

 

[cubfan]

The plantiffs are well aware of this stall- indefinitely tactic and will address it in the proposed remedy. No need to worry about your fellow pilots obstructing forward progress, we are taking care of it.

Prechilill,

I'm not sure a stall tatic is a fair statement, some may, others may not, I think after the judge makes his ruling, only then will it start to clear up the picture. Also alot think the east pilot groups main goal is to screw the west, its not, there are strong feelings about seeing this out till the end, let it run its course, the end will be here soon. (either thru no appeal allowed by the 9th circuit, a decision by them or by a Wake ruling). People will move on, can't stay bitter for ever. You may very well be suprized, once done, constructive dialougue will happen. It has to or else.