US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[Pi brat]

USAPA got a full mouth extraction last week, dentures will be coming by the end of June. Right now they are learning basic pronunciations again.
Stupid people do stupid things, like smoke, do drugs, or fight the IRS over a couple hundred dollars. Every day we see new ways for people to demonstrate their stupidity. How entertaining...

Another stupid thing some people do is sticking your finger in your coworkers eye. Good planning for the future. Glad you are enjoying yourself.

 

[Pi brat]

The plantiffs are well aware of this stall- indefinitely tactic and will address it in the proposed remedy. No need to worry about your fellow pilots obstructing forward progress, we are taking care of it.

Here's a question for you or anyone else concerning stalling. Under section 6 you can't delay a contract forever as an impasse can be declared and a contract imposed or self help taken. I've heard the TA is different and doesn't operate that way. Is that true?

 

[oscarjazz]

I like to consider myself as a moderate. I also believe in trying to work out issues before any third-party makes a binding decision because you never know how a third-party will decide an issue. I've posted that quite a few times in the past.

The problem that I see now is that both parties have previously submitted the dispute to a third-party and a binding decision has since been rendered. East got the top 517 slots and West got proportional slotting after that. I know that is perceived as a West win, although some folks would dispute that after the first 517 slots went East, but I have a hard time coming around to the position that after a binding decision was rendered why a party should now negotiate any part of that away. To me it is akin to someone negotiating against themselves.

Believe me, I know the process and know the results. It may be me, but I do this job for money. It's a great job, but if they stopped paying me, I would go elsewhere. Right now I see the East contract as the worst in the industry and the West contract as the second worst. This is not being pejorative, I just see that as a fact.

Unless this logjam is broken, that will pretty much remain the case. I think that if there were a set of fences to provide peace of mind for the East then it could help break the logjam. Due to the geography, I don't think there is a huge groundswell of demand for either group to swap domiciles. Sure there is some, but probably not a lot. By pegging the fences to actual retirements and growth, you could slowly open up the opportunity for each side to intermix. I don't see this type of fence as a huge concession by the West, it will mainly provide some backstop for the East pilots.

Most importantly, if you break the logjam, then you can get contractual gains. These gains will provide each side much more in economic value than if either side prevails 100% in their views. If you are number 1 on a list with a bad contract, who cares. If you are number 1 on a carrier that has been liquidated, really who cares.

So while the West is perfectly within their rights to stick to the Nicolau award as written, I don't see that putting the green in their wallets any time soon. In fact, this process is just a negative as both sides are racking up pretty gigantic legal bills.

Maybe I am just too mercenary, but I only do this job for money. Anything that puts more money in the pockets of both East and West seems like a good thing to me. I know this is easy for me to say because I am not living the emotions of either side. I see two sides that are fighting each other to the death and their airline is failing at least in part due to that. I have a hard time seeing any winners under the current path.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Another stupid thing some people do is sticking your finger in your coworkers eye. Good planning for the future. Glad you are enjoying yourself.

Is that like using the tyranny of the majority to welch on an agreement, completely disregard the interests of the minority, start a new union, use union resources to attack individual pilots of the minority in federal court using trumped up RICO accusations that are so lame that the whole thing is dismissed with prejudiced on a 12b6 motion, and using the union security clause only against the minority, and the best of all...use the majority to try to cram down a seniority list which a jury unanimously finds harms the minority and therefore is a breach of the DFR? Do you mean you feel that all that only arises to sticking a finger in a co-worker's eye? Are you really serious?

By the way...how's that yellow lanyard working out for ya?

 

[hp_fa]

As you and I have discussed here, the option with the highest probability for advancement of the whole was status quo ante....but hey, everyone can hold out for the Nic....for as long as it takes.

I just want to make sure we are viewing status quo ante in the same light. My perseption of status quo ante, as discussed in court, is that despite being one union under USAPA that the West will retain a veto power on any collective bargaining agreement that is presented for ratification until such time as a CBA is approved by the membership. The veto would effectively mean that like under the ALPA Merger Policy East and West would vote as separate units and if the CBA passed in both East and West then it would be agreed to as opposed to one large collective vote of the entire membership.

Of we need to see if the Court accepts the concept of status quo ante and how it crafts the permanent injunction.

 

[oscarjazz]

Here's a question for you or anyone else concerning stalling. Under section 6 you can't delay a contract forever as an impasse can be declared and a contract imposed or self help taken. I've heard the TA is different and doesn't operate that way. Is that true?

No, a TA is just a preliminary step towards a contract. It does not have any legal meaning under the RLA.

 

[hp_fa]

Don't forget our legal expenses to correct USAPA's failures! Would the financial losses incurred by our pilots that have suffered forclosure or had to give-up their vehicles be compensated...I don't know.

I believe and expect that because of the Plaintiffs' verdict and that there has been a class certification in this matter that the Court will also enter in its Judgment that Plaintiffs' reasonable attorneys fees and taxable costs (that is a legal term) will be assessed to the Defendant.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I think that if there were a set of fences to provide peace of mind for the East then it could help break the logjam. Due to the geography, I don't think there is a huge groundswell of demand for either group to swap domiciles.

The West went to Wye River proposing just that plus heavily weighting the pay scale to favor longevity in the right seat. The East would have none of it. Even though Wye River was ALPA sponsored and ALPA funded, the east ALPA types that were there never missed an opportunity to taunt the West about USAPA and the coming DOH from them. The inference was clear: give in to everything we want and perhaps a USAPA election will be averted. They wanted furloughs to go DOH, they wanted to insert attrition into the CBA which favors the East, and a ton of other stuff. We told them to pack sand and that we'll take our chances. So, they vote in the Gang of Idiots and look where they are now!

What this all comes down to is that you can't fix stupid. Arrogance + stupidity = a dangerous result for the person.

 

[Pi brat]

Is that like using the tyranny of the majority to welch on an agreement, completely disregard the interests of the minority, start a new union, use union resources to attack individual pilots of the minority in federal court using trumped up RICO accusations that are so lame that the whole thing is dismissed with prejudiced on a 12b6 motion, and using the union security clause only against the minority, and the best of all...use the majority to try to cram down a seniority list which a jury unanimously finds harms the minority and therefore is a breach of the DFR? Do you mean you feel that all that only arises to sticking a finger in a co-worker's eye? Are you really serious?

By the way...how's that yellow lanyard working out for ya?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. There has been little of that from either side. When I have seen injustice I have tried to address it, my side or the other. But keep defending poor behavior because you are on the "right" side, so it's okay.

Never had a yellow lanyard, and it's working out about as well for me as it is for you. Thanks for asking.

 

[hp_fa]

Does anyone know, if the appealant fails on the appeal are they automatically liable for the legal expenses of the opposing counsel

I had already answered what I think is your question as far as the trial court is concerned. I believe the Court of Appeals can also assess a losing party of fees and costs at its discretion, but I need to check that to be certain. The Plaintiffs/Appelees may require a bond be posted in order to perfect an appeal. ("Perfect an appeal" is a legal term basically meaning that a failure to do so can invalidate an appeal.)

 

[Pi brat]

No, a TA is just a preliminary step towards a contract. It does not have any legal meaning under the RLA.

Okay, but when you negotiate the joint contract that is specified in the TA, does it follow the same RLA guidelines? i.e. could either side drag it out or would an impasse be declared?

 

[electricjet98]

Even though Wye River was ALPA sponsored and ALPA funded, the east ALPA types that were there never missed an opportunity to taunt the West about USAPA and the coming DOH from them. The inference was clear: give in to everything we want and perhaps a USAPA election will be averted. They wanted furloughs to go DOH, they wanted to insert attrition into the CBA which favors the East, and a ton of other stuff.

And as a previous West MEC Chairman was quoted when discussing any type of negotiation with the East for softening the blow of the Nic, "Where is the warranty in their word?".

That is not an attack on anyone...just an analysis of East/West history to prevent any future problems. With the east pilots outvoting the west pilots at a 2:1 ratio, the C&BL's written (by the east) to allow for a east advantage of 3:1 at the governing BPR, with staffing of major committees stacked with an overwhelming east advantage, with any future east/west disagreement regarding the implementation of any fences or other adjustments to the Nic decided by the east majority and USAPA leadership and now with a jury of nine individuals finding the east liable for failing their DFR, does anyone question why the west has no intention of compromising the Nic? The east has only their own past actions to blame for this attitude!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. There has been little of that from either side.

Didn't start out that way. There was plenty of warm feelings in the West for the East and unfortunately that was met with Easts' "our way or the highway" attitude. It was quickly apparent that you guys didn't learn anything from the United experience nor was there any humble pie from your two trips into BK and a near death experience.

But keep defending poor behavior because you are on the "right" side, so it's okay.

A jury of nine unanimously agreed who the culpable party is here. Did you miss that one?

Never had a yellow lanyard, and it's working out about as well for me as it is for you. Thanks for asking.

Never had one? Well, you must have been the ONLY East pilot without one because when I was in East domiciles during the election campaign I didn't see one pilot not wearing one. Heck, I saw a check airman wearing one!

So...seriously...how's that yellow lanyard working out for you at $124 an hour and Mesa workrules?

 

[hp_fa]

Take a stroll around the CLT crewroom...all I hear is NO. Not, "well, if it was this much this and this..." I'll go so far as to say that without a fence, it ain't gonna happen. Ask around. And thats CLT...I can only imagine what is happening in PHL.

Actually I discussed this very point with some pilots during breaks in the trial. There was some discussion that what is said in crew rooms and flight decks may be different then what is done when at home and the pilot, and maybe a spouse, is looking at the ballot and seeing a potential pay raise rather than no pay raise if a proposal was voted down.

I am not suggesting that the majority of pilots considering a ratification vote would vote contrary to what is said in crew rooms, but I am suggesting that some of them may privately consider that and perhaps vote differently than what they say in public.

 

[prechilill]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Couldn't agree more. How is life on the wrong side of civil law? Ever imagine your actions will have consequences? Didn't think so... You have no clue what seeds you and your kind will be sowing. Peace.