US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 4/15-4/22

[cleardirect]

It's obvious that some of the 'dirtier details" of the Nic is embarrassing to the west...there is a detectable "edge" since the disclosure of a 6 year old going before a HIRED airline pilot out East.

Hey, the truth hurts. What with the Metroyet's and Prechillils of the world proclaiming that the East pilots have had it easy in the NE corridor when other "real" pilots fly in PHX. Lets not overlook Prechillil's failure to respond to her pronouncement of coming to PHL as a captain eagerly....although the west "only wants what they brought to the dance"...right....

The trial is around the corner, I'm told, and many of the ugliest details of greed and opportunistic bravado are sure to be entertaining. I have it on good authority that this is far from over, regardless.

I've been away for awhile, but I see the old guard back as the time draws near...Tazz, Prechillil, Metroyet, NLC....yep, truly drooling over the possibilities....what a sad bunch you are out west.

pathetic.

cheers

Well you have obviously found the key to the entire unfairness if the Nicolau award. A break through. I guess the only thing to do now is to contact Mr. Nicolau and inform him of this latest revelation. This should change everything. If only the east MC had brought this fact to light during the 10 days of hearings. The 3000 pages of transcripts, the expert witnesses. This one bit of information could trump it all.

You are “told’ about the ugliest details. Very good. A shame that the jury will not. I guess the entire east legal team still can not figure out what this trial is about. It is about what usapa did or did not do. Try reading the first motion in limine.

Motion in Limine #1
To exclude evidence & argument to relitigate the process, procedure or decision in the Nicolau arbitration.

If this is ordered what is usapa going to do?

Far from over? How much more is the membership willing to spend? How long is the membership willing to wait for a contract? I have it on good authority that if it is appealed. The company will pull out of contract negotiations until it is finished. USAPA’s call, their choice delay the contract for the possibility of a 4-5 % chance in the ninth. Two years, several hundreds of thousands of dollar more, no contract. In the mean time the ruling stands.

Good thing this does not effect you.

 

[EastUS]

Oh, allright, I think I get it now. Let me see if I understand this correctly, Piedmont1984: Using your, uhh.... logic, a Westy hired in 2000 who has worked an average of 85 hours has per month should have MORE seniority than a an Easty hired in 1999 who flys an average of 75 hours a month because he has worked longer and harder (more hours) than a guy hired a year before him?? Is that correct?? More "sweat equity" and all. Where do you guys come up with this (self serving) stuff????

Wow!...just 1999 versus 2000? That's hardly a proper yardstick for measuring west greed, in that it's barely a mark that'd even be findable on the stick!!

So then = Kindly fill us all in on the rationale for having the then 6 year old child, at the time when many east pilots signed on and started flight ops, becoming magicaly "senior" to the those east pilots? Perhaps you would have better luck explaining the 2 month's of "seniority" with your "Save Dave" that should trump, say 17 years out east as well? As for: "Where do you guys come up with this (self serving) stuff????" I certainly agree, and all I can say is that the west position has long baffled me,. Perhaps you can actually explain the source of "this (self serving) stuff" in it's entirety some day.....

 

[N924PS]

What's really unfortunate in all this is that much of what you claim to want could have possibly been obtained in merger negotiations if the East hadn't been so focused on DOH or nothing. That chance ended when it went to arbitration and now there's no entity on the West side to negotiate with. So a judge/jury gets to decide.

Jim

So many of the West posters are convinced they will prevail in Judge Wake's courtroom.

Much the same way the East pilots postured as the Nicolau arbitration was under way.

I'm still not clear on what the West expects to happen if they do prevail. Can the court in fact force the Nicolau Award? Does it then become the current Section 22 in the existing contract?

Just wondering what each side expects, should the decision go their way.

 

[ClueByFour]

The trial is around the corner, I'm told, and many of the ugliest details of greed and opportunistic bravado are sure to be entertaining. I have it on good authority that this is far from over, regardless.

You don't get it, do you? The judge has already indicated that the issue of whether Nicolau is "fair" is probably gonna be off the table.

Tactically, the East really screwed up with DOH/LOS or nothing. It's just going to take the trial to have it sink in.

You may consider your choice of america west as a lottery type entitled existence if you like. As for you being a pilot from a group that has advanced the pilot profession or the use of an airplane as commerce, it is in fact not a reality.

This is a perfect example of why.

If we look at the safety records of both airlines (and ultimately, that's the only thing a pilot is paid on), the AWA pilot group has done less to damage the "profession" than the East group. Take, for instance, the East's 1 for 3 record on the NYC waterways...

See where this leads?

I understand that Seeham is going to try to get Sulley and Skiles onto the stand. That's gonna make for some variation of the exact question I posed above, whether they pop it to Sulley and Skiles or ambush Bradford with it.

 

[EastUS]

You don't get it, do you? The judge has already indicated that the issue of whether Nicolau is "fair" is probably gonna be off the table.

"probably"....Well; The west had certainly best hope so...lest the jurors require medical treatment for excessive nausea, which could prove prejudicial.

"I understand that Seeham is going to try to get Sulley and Skiles onto the stand. That's gonna make for some variation of the exact question I posed above, whether they pop it to Sulley and Skiles or ambush Bradford with it." Oh Yeah!...I've absolutely no/zip/zero doubt that the jury would find them of great benefit towards advancing the west's case. Feel free and do go right ahead = "Ambush" away!

 

[ClueByFour]

Not at all. I am saying that my time at AAA has value in and of itself, independent of how well the company did, how competent or ethical it's management was, how well management conducted the company's business, or what the economic circumstances were.

Does a narrowbody captain at US Airways bring the same "value" (with the job he brings to a merger) as a 10 year captain at Southwest? The answer is "of course not."

The differences between US and AWA are obviously not that stark and in some degree of contention, but because a guy out west is sitting in the left seat after "only" 10 years or so means something.

You cannot abstract the condition of the company you work for from this equation.

 

[EastUS]

Does a narrowbody captain at US Airways bring the same "value" (with the job he brings to a merger) as a 10 year captain at Southwest? The answer is "of course not."

The answer, to YOU, is "of course not"..but then...you're not even in this business.

 

[electricjet98]

I'm still not clear on what the West expects to happen if they do prevail. Can the court in fact force the Nicolau Award? Does it then become the current Section 22 in the existing contract?

Just wondering what each side expects, should the decision go their way.

You've been sleeping? Post #132

ISSUE #3: Whether, in a reasonably cost-neutral manner, West Pilots
now on furlough can be recalled and East Pilots furloughed in their place.
Plaintiffs Contend: Yes. There are more than enough East Pilots working
in positions for which the West Pilots on furlough are fully trained. There
are more than enough East Pilots flying in and out of the domicile cities to
which the currently furloughed West Pilots were assigned. Any costs to
the Airline from recalling West Pilots and furloughing East Pilots can be
set off against funds that the Airline will soon be due to pay to East Pilots.


Plaintiffs’ ISSUE #2: Whether USAPA so violated its duty of fair
representation that the Court should order the airline and USAPA to
submit to NMB mediation/arbitration to create and implement a single
joint collective bargaining agreement that incorporates the Nicolau
Award seniority list.
Plaintiffs Contend: Yes. See Chicago & N. W. Ry. Co. v. United Transp.
Union, 402 U.S. 570, 577 (1971) (holding that the duty to bargain in good
faith “was intended to be more than a mere statement of policy or
exhortation to the parties; rather, it was designed to be a legal obligation,
enforceable by whatever appropriate means might be developed on a caseby-
case basis.â€￾); United Air Lines, Inc. v. Air Line Pilots Assn., Intern.
2008 WL 4936847, 35 (N.D. Ill. 2008) (“[T]he obligation to make and
maintain agreements without interruption to the carrier's operations is …
an affirmative legal obligation, enforceable by … injunction.â€￾).


Plaintiffs’ ISSUE #4: Whether USAPA so violated its duty of fair
representation that the Court should direct it to make whatever
concessions are necessary to allow the airline to recall furloughed West
Pilots and, if necessary to furlough equivalently trained East Pilots in
their place.
Plaintiffs Contend: Yes. See 30A C.J.S. Equity § 131 (“Equity regards
that as done which ought to be done. * * * The broad meaning or effect of
this maxim is that where an obligation rests on a person to perform an act
equity will treat the person in whose favor the act should be performed as
clothed with the same interest and entitled to the same rights as though the
act were actually performed.â€￾).



Plaintiffs’ ISSUE #5: Whether USAPA so violated its duty of fair
representation in disputing the validity of the Nicolau Arbitration Award
that the Court should award Plaintiffs their reasonable attorneys’ fees
and non-taxable costs.
Plaintiffs Contend: Yes. Intl. Union of Petroleum & Indus. Workers v.
Western Indus. Maintenance, Inc., 707 F.2d 425, 428 (9th Cir. 1983)
(“[A]n unjustified refusal to abide by an arbitrator's award may equate an
act taken in bad faith, vexatiously or for oppressive reasons.â€￾); Phoenix
Newspapers, Inc. v. Phoenix Mailers Union Local 752, Intern. Bhd. of
Teamsters, 989 F.2d 1077, 1084 (9th Cir. 1993) (same); see also Intl.
Assn. of Machinists & Aerospace Workers, Dist. 776 v. Texas Steel Co.,
538 F.2d 1116, 1122 (5th Cir. 1976) (awarding fees because “the refusal
to abide by [an] arbitration award [creating a compromise integration of
seniority lists] was without justification.â€￾).

 

[ClueByFour]

"probably"....Well; The west had certainly best hope so...lest the jurors require medical treatment for excessive nausea, which could prove prejudicial.

Only if they find 12 union members to sit on the panel (unlikely).

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the judge does allow Seeham and company to rehash the "fairness" of Nicolau: you will find that reasonable people with reasonable expectations about how the world works would come to something very "Nicolau-ish" each and every time (take a look at DL/NW as Example A).

"I understand that Seeham is going to try to get Sulley and Skiles onto the stand. That's gonna make for some variation of the exact question I posed above, whether they pop it to Sulley and Skiles or ambush Bradford with it." Oh Yeah!...I've absolutely no/zip/zero doubt that the jury would find them of great benefit towards advancing the west's case. Feel free and do go right ahead = "Ambush" away!

1 for 3 on New York waterways. 1 for 3. The stats indicate that the majority of the East pilots who have encountered some water unexpectedly in the LGA area have ended up in it (not on it) with dead passengers. If you really believe that's helpful to your cause, have at it.

Really--do you honestly believe that would play in the East's favor? I guess this goes back to the "east pilot group" versus "reality" thing, in which case I get why it's not sinking in.

 

[EastUS]

Only if they find 12 union members to sit on the panel (unlikely).

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the judge does allow Seeham and company to rehash the "fairness" of Nicolau: you will find that reasonable people with reasonable expectations about how the world works would come to something very "Nicolau-ish" each and every time (take a look at DL/NW as Example A).



1 for 3 on New York waterways. 1 for 3. The stats indicate that the majority of the East pilots who have encountered some water unexpectedly in the LGA area have ended up in it (not on it) with dead passengers. If you really believe that's helpful to your cause, have at it.

Really--do you honestly believe that would play in the East's favor? I guess this goes back to the "east pilot group" versus "reality" thing, in which case I get why it's not sinking in.

1) Huge assumption on your part.
2) Same as 1) above.
3) Take your best shot.
4) Yes, see 3) above.

Hey!..Any chance we can round up the then 6 year old, who would magically become "senior" to those that then hired on (to presumably celebrate his upcoming 7th birthday, and preordained greatness) for the stand?...Just kidding...sort of

None can now know how any/all of this will go, nor what any eventual fallout from whatever verdict will be.

Good Night.

 

[ClueByFour]

The answer, to YOU, is "of course not"..but then...you're not even in this business.

And every other salient human on the planet.

You do realize that unless they find 12 retired East pilots, the jury pool is far more likely to be closer to my thinking than yours, right?

Let's try this, tho: under what defense does a 20+ year East FO bring more "value" to a hypothetical merger than a 10 year LUV Captain?

 

[nostradamus]

1 for 3 on New York waterways. 1 for 3. The stats indicate that the majority of the East pilots who have encountered some water unexpectedly in the LGA area have ended up in it (not on it) with dead passengers. If you really believe that's helpful to your cause, have at it.

Really--do you honestly believe that would play in the East's favor? I guess this goes back to the "east pilot group" versus "reality" thing, in which case I get why it's not sinking in.

Drop the wine and retire for the evening sir, just a suggestion. I am sure your ffocus partners boeingboy and memeograph man piney would agree with me.

 

[EastUS]

And every other salient human on the planet.

You do realize that unless they find 12 retired East pilots, the jury pool is far more likely to be closer to my thinking than yours, right?

Let's try this, tho: under what defense does a 20+ year East FO bring more "value" to a hypothetical merger than a 10 year LUV Captain?

1) I've never actually had the required arrogance to ever speak for, nor presume upon the opinions of "every other human on the planet"...I bow in proper awe and utter deference there.
2) See 1) above.

Let's try this = Explain the case of your famous then 6 year old, becoming "senior" to those that hired on at that same time. Try selling that rancid BS to any "salient human"

 

[BoeingBoy]

1) I've never actually had the required arrogance to ever speak for, nor presume upon the opinions of "every other human on the planet"...I bow in proper awe and utter deference there.

I gotta admit, you're right - you don't claim to "speak for" every other human on the planet. You just tell them what's right and what's "absurd" - no disagreement allowed. That takes real arrogance...

Jim

 

[des nudo]

I gotta admit, you're right - you don't claim to "speak for" every other human on the planet. You just tell them what's right and what's "absurd" - no disagreement allowed. That takes real arrogance...

Jim

Thanks again there Jim.

You make my/our point better than we could ever hope.

talk talk talk talk talk talk talk......breathe....kick the dog....talk talk talk....cash retirement check...

sad

It's one thing to have an opinion..it's quite another to drone on and one tossing passive/agressive insults to anyone with a differing opinion(east) than you.

you are truly pathetic....get a life, before it's over.

( I give myself a time out )