US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 4/15-4/22

[Metroyet]

= You're all pretty much out of any real or even marginally meaningfull material.....Period.

That "marginal material" is called Due Process. It tends to be the law of the land, not the tyrannical cram down/staple job/smash n'grab, by a bunch of Angry FO's. Your PHL reps continually, (smugly) maintain that you, as a group, have done NOTHING WRONG. Therefore, you have NOTHING to worry about. This little insignificant trial is just a formality.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Relative position has nothing to do with time and effort. Time and effort, measured in units of time in the excercise of a craft which requires units of effort is a roundabout way of describing - good old fashioned work. I worked longer and harder to get my seniority at AAA than the youngster who has spent only a fraction of the time at AWA.

Not difficult to grasp at all - it's a way to justify taking from the West pilots to make up for the shortcomings of your time at US. You're saying that those West pilots don't deserve to have the seniority they achieved, so it should be yours for the taking.

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

Easy to answer... they went to work for the wrong airline, just like the pilots at Braniff, Pan Am, Frontier and Eastern. Any other questions?

The pilots for the airlines you mentioned were real pilots. They were the explorers of aviation and paved the way for us today. The result of their efforts put the airplane in a position to replace the ocean vessels and trains, as the premier means, of safe, fast and efficient means of travel.

You were hired by america west airlines because you did not have the tools to become a pilot for the great airlines you mentioned and others, period. Your disrespect of your forefathers shows your complete ignorance of your surroundings.

Pan American World Airways

Eastern Air Lines

You may consider your choice of america west as a lottery type entitled existence if you like. As for you being a pilot from a group that has advanced the pilot profession or the use of an airplane as commerce, it is in fact not a reality.

 

[nic4us]

Or experience, or years of work performed, or sacrifices made,..and you're evidently just fine with that..

Although I deplore it, I am also okay with flag burning, as allowing it protects the greater right of free speech.

Exactly whos experience or sacrifices have been dismissed? The six year old is an isolated example, suiting the east arguement of what a travesty it all is, and I simply call BS. It is less of an injustice than allowing furloughed pilots with shorter LOS to leepfrog West Captains, but that is what the East idea of fair is.

While I am thinking of it....Exactly how does a furlough with less LOS than myself, have more experience or perform more work than me? I will give you they may have made greater sacrifice, cause that furlough thing must sure suck.

Oh wait...I just answered my own question, you think your experience and work performed is somehow more important than mine!

Piedmont gets it. He has been making the case that there should have been a greater emphasis placed on credit for both "Position" and "LOS" or "DOH". One of the pilot neutrals held a similar opinion.

Wait.......gotta go Nostrodamus just made a Lottery comment!

 

[Piedmont1984]

Not difficult to grasp at all - it's a way to justify taking from the West pilots to make up for the shortcomings of your time at US. You're saying that those West pilots don't deserve to have the seniority they achieved, so it should be yours for the taking.

Jim

Not at all. I am saying that my time at AAA has value in and of itself, independent of how well the company did, how competent or ethical it's management was, how well management conducted the company's business, or what the economic circumstances were.

So compare my seniority with my counterpart's out west and by virtue of the fact that mine consists of 4.5 more years in the service of this company, my seniority and what was invested in achieving it is different from his. So in putting together a combined list, that difference should be addressed - not ignored or dismissed. And of course this disparity becomes grotesquely huge in the case of our F/O's.

As far as taking from someone, that is nonsense. Seat protection, fences, conditions and restrictions are all designed to prevent the taking of anything. Of course present circumstances - separate ops, downsizing in liesure markets, TA provisions - have distorted what would otherwise be a sound model.

 

[nic4us]

You were hired by america west airlines because you did not have the tools to become a pilot for the great airlines you mentioned and others, period. Your disrespect of your forefathers shows your complete ignorance of your surroundings.

You may consider your choice of america west as a lottery type entitled existence if you like. As for you being a pilot from a group that has advanced the pilot profession or the use of an airplane as commerce, it is in fact not a reality.

Hey Nostro,

You just totally insulted the ( original) Eastern and Frontier pilots who work for America West Airlines...Aquiring company of USAirways..who I think you were somehow trying to kowtow to while belittling Prechill.

I would like to thank Prechill for her contribution to the 25 year no fatality safety record at the America West Airlines and Lottery Franchise!, and thanks for your contribution to airline commerce on whole.

 

[Metroyet]

You were hired by america west airlines because you did not have the tools to become a pilot for the great airlines you mentioned and others, period. Your disrespect of your forefathers shows your complete ignorance of your surroundings.

You may consider your choice of america west as a lottery type entitled existence if you like. As for you being a pilot from a group that has advanced the pilot profession or the use of an airplane as commerce, it is in fact not a reality.

More clear evidence that all this Eastie Angst is nothing more than a simple bruised ego. The superiority complex cannot handle this kind of reality check. Got news for you, flying in the North East isn't all that hard. In fact, I would argue that other domestic airlines out there deal with challenges that you guys can't begin to touch. All the while not being egotistical jerks about it. IOW, You ain't all that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not at all. I am saying that my time at AAA has value in and of itself, independent of how well the company did, how competent or ethical it's management was, how well management conducted the company's business, or what the economic circumstances were.

You merely want every pilot with the same longevity to move up or down in lockstep - if that isn't the case in a merger of two airlines, somebody has to pay for your misfortune. Of course, not the management, not the economy, not the company you worked for (who despite your wishing to exclude are the factors that caused you misfortune). It those pilots who were more fortunate that should pay, even though they played no part in causing your misfortune.

So compare my seniority with my counterpart's out west and by virtue of the fact that mine consists of 4.5 more years in the service of this company, my seniority and what was invested in achieving it is different from his. So in putting together a combined list, that difference should be addressed - not ignored or dismissed. And of course this disparity becomes grotesquely huge in the case of our F/O's.

Ya know, there's a name for what you get for "sweat equity", time served, etc. It's seniority. You want more than you had while taking it from those you consider less deserving. Since they're not as deserving in your eyes, the theft is OK with you I guess.

As far as taking from someone, that is nonsense.

You put a lot more faith in some half-hearted C&R's than they deserve. Take an "iron clad" condition from the Kagel award as an example - speaking about the 767 protection he said "For a period of two years from the effective date of combined operation, these 767 positions shall be reserved for former PAI Pilots..." Oddly enough by the end of that two year period approximately 70% of the 767 positions were held by non-PAI pilots (I doug out the old bid awards a couple of weeks ago to verify that). I'm sure the non-PAI pilots didn't think they were taking anything from the PAI pilots either - they deserved those jobs for the same reasons you've stated.

A seniority number, like water, will seek it's own level. Give a West Captain a junior seniority number and that's where that pilot will settle. C&R's may slow the process somewhat but won't stop it. At best, those factors you want to ignore (management, economy, etc) may soften the blow through growth being the rising tide that floats all ships. But that West pilot will wait a long time to get back to where he was when the merger happened, if he doesn't retire first. So you can call claims of taking from the West pilots "nonsense" but it's what will happen. With the seniority numbers most of them would get with a DOH list it's unavoidable.

Jim

 

[des nudo]

It's obvious that some of the 'dirtier details" of the Nic is embarrassing to the west...there is a detectable "edge" since the disclosure of a 6 year old going before a HIRED airline pilot out East.

Hey, the truth hurts. What with the Metroyet's and Prechillils of the world proclaiming that the East pilots have had it easy in the NE corridor when other "real" pilots fly in PHX. Lets not overlook Prechillil's failure to respond to her pronouncement of coming to PHL as a captain eagerly....although the west "only wants what they brought to the dance"...right....

The trial is around the corner, I'm told, and many of the ugliest details of greed and opportunistic bravado are sure to be entertaining. I have it on good authority that this is far from over, regardless.

I've been away for awhile, but I see the old guard back as the time draws near...Tazz, Prechillil, Metroyet, NLC....yep, truly drooling over the possibilities....what a sad bunch you are out west.

pathetic.

cheers

 

[nostradamus]

Hey Nostro,

You just totally insulted the ( original) Eastern and Frontier pilots who work for America West Airlines...Aquiring company of USAirways..who I think you were somehow trying to kowtow to while belittling Prechill.

I would like to thank Prechill for her contribution to the 25 year no fatality safety record at the America West Airlines and Lottery Franchise!, and thanks for your contribution to airline commerce on whole.

QUOTE (prechilill @ Apr 20 2009, 05:42 AM) *
""Easy to answer... they went to work for the wrong airline, just like the pilots at Braniff, Pan Am, Frontier and Eastern. Any other questions?""

Well maybe miss pre deregulation can explain the meaning of the comment she made above. Was that to be construed as a compliment to former pilots of those airlines.

 

[nostradamus]

america west pilots latest update quote;

""One final note, we are nearing the end of the first phase of this journey. Getting here has been difficult and we would not be here were it not for our core supporters who have given $500 and more to this cause. Wear your badges proudly as they represent the only form of commitment to preserving your seniority, and thus your entire career. Make no mistake about it, this trial will be the most important event in the careers of just about every America West pilot. We know that this fact is not lost on those who have contributed, but once again we will reiterate our misgiving that there is basically one in four America West pilots who have contributed little to nothing at all. The hour is near where those pilots will miss the most important opportunity to protect their livelihood. Why these pilots have not contributed escapes us. If you know someone who fits this description, please speak to them and tell them that it is only through Leonidas, LLC that their careers will be protected against the organized theft of their seniority.

Have a great weekend,

Leonidas, LLC""

 

[electricjet98]

You are doing it again - and making my point. You argue for relative position at the expense of longevity.

Between the two, longevity is far more difficult to earn.

I'll agree that longevity may be more difficult to earn, but that does not give it any value whatsoever!

Being able to ride a bicycle backwards on a railroad track while standing on your head and juggling is certainly difficult; should that ability cause them to be placed at the top of the seniority list?

Longevity is a measure to me used only amongst the peers you have been hired with; it is absolutely meaningless for the purpose of merging lists.

 

[nic4us]

QUOTE (prechilill @ Apr 20 2009, 05:42 AM) *
""Easy to answer... they went to work for the wrong airline, just like the pilots at Braniff, Pan Am, Frontier and Eastern. Any other questions?""

Well maybe miss pre deregulation can explain the meaning of the comment she made above. Was that to be construed as a compliment to former pilots of those airlines.

Okay, I assumed your intention was not to insult, I just wanted to point out that we have/had many Eastern, (non-s-word), and former Frontier pilots working out West, (at one point almost our entire 737 instructor compliment were ex-Frontier captains), and that they got here pretty much the same way you did, by the downfall of their old company.

 

[electricjet98]

electricjet98

"Just when I think I'm out - they pull me back in"

Welcome to the club!

 

[nostradamus]

Okay, I assumed your intention was not to insult, I just wanted to point out that we have/had many Eastern, (non-s-word), and former Frontier pilots working out West, (at one point almost our entire 737 instructor compliment were ex-Frontier captains), and that they got here pretty much the same way you did, by the downfall of their old company.

Back to the original point of my post. Since you made yourself the spokesperson for prechilli, what did she mean by the comment that they picked the wrong airline. I will help. It was an arrogant, ignorant comment.

You tried to spin an insult made by one of your pilots and deflect it to me.