US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 4/15-4/22

[EastUS]

QUOTE (des nudo @ Apr 18 2009, 07:05 PM) *
I hear from close friends that many 23+ year NEVER FURLOUGHED pilots out east will be junior to a BOY...yeah, I said it...BOY...who was 6....SIX...6..YEARS OLD when they got hired as AIRLINE PILOTS at USAIRWAYS......

And your point is what?

Longevity is not seniority.

You've finally achieved it trader...Words just entirely fail me here....completely and seriously, they really do.....

 

[Piedmont1984]

And your point is what?

That the West pilots are suppose to give us their jobs because we worked for a stagnant, poorly run airline that shrunk from 400 to 200 airplanes?

Longevity is not seniority.

SENIORITY
function: noun
date: 15th century

Position of superiority or authority based on continuous length of service for a company.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You've finally achieved it trader...Words just entirely fail me here....completely and seriously, they really do.....

Such a simple concept, too. Especially since so many on the East have seen their seniority go up and down like a yo-yo while their longevity steadily increased....you'd think that would make it crystal clear that the two are entirely separate....unless "it's all about meee..." is clouding their senses.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

based on continuous length of service for a company.

Wonder why everyone on the East always disregards those last three words.....opportunistic blindness perchance....

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Wonder why everyone on the East always disregards those last three words.....opportunistic blindness perchance....

Jim

We are one company now. Both sides bring their respective relative seniorities into the mix as well as their respective longevity. So merging the two groups by relative position should then be adjusted for longevity - or vice versa. Both elements should be considered and addressed. Not one at the expense of the other.

I am obviously biased toward longevity for all the reasons that have been articulated since this debate began - mea culpa.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Using Jim's logic, when one company acquired another they would just "staple" the acquired company's employees to the bottom of the list, since the acquired company ceased to exist. PSA would have been stapled to the U list, then PI would have been stapled to that one. Neither of those things happened. In fact, both profitted from DOH combinations of the lists.

You know, there is a word for the psychological condition of wishing ill of your past comrades. SCHADENFREUDE. Look it up. Apparently some on this board suffer from it.

 

[Metroyet]

SENIORITY
function: noun
date: 15th century

Position of superiority or authority based on continuous length of service for a company.

(Deleted by moderator. Please note: Using diacritical marks in place of some of the letters in a profanity does not make it less of a profanity. Please do not do this.) No Assuming a SINGLE company. Your forgot about the merger. Career Cancer isn't transferable as you hope. Your number one guy was no "more number one" than the Wests'. Hence the relative positioning as outlined by.

Nic. and the other neutrals
DAL/NWA
ALPA Merger Policy NOT being DOH.

You guys refuse to face reality. I submit that fact alone has hurt you more than anything. You insist on being merged like a flight attendant, quit your job and grab an apron.

 

[nic4us]

SENIORITY
function: noun
date: 15th century

Position of superiority or authority based on continuous length of service for a company.

Piedmont,

I agree with the definition you found 100%.

In this merger we had to find a way to combine the first word in this definition "Position". My "Position" as a line holding A320 captain is of higher "superiority or authority" than basically any former east F/O and especially any furloughed.

The East wishes to combine the "length of service" portion of the definition, disregarding the rest of the definition or even the term being defined.

I will not delve deep into the part of the definition stating "continuous" and pointing out that USAPA wants DOH not "continuous length of service".

 

[BoeingBoy]

Using Jim's logic, when one company acquired another they would just "staple" the acquired company's employees to the bottom of the list, since the acquired company ceased to exist.

Nice try but no prize - merging companies, whether by buyout, stock swap, or however, involves merging two seniority lists from two companies and not "a company". That's why the definition, through bandied about as "proof" of something, doesn't fit.

On the other hand, you and others want to make it fit by pretending it's always been one company....to the detriment of the West pilots and benefit of yourself and the other East pilots.

Jim

 

[electricjet98]

We are one company now. Both sides bring their respective relative seniorities into the mix as well as their respective longevity. So merging the two groups by relative position should then be adjusted for longevity - or vice versa. Both elements should be considered and addressed. Not one at the expense of the other.

I am obviously biased toward longevity for all the reasons that have been articulated since this debate began - mea culpa.

"Both elements should be considered and addressed. Not one at the expense of the other."
Actually they are.

(T or F) One's longevity derived from their DOH, determines their seniority and position on their respective seniority list. T

(T or F) When merging two separate lists. merging pilots with similar relative positions on their respective lists together on the new, combined list prevents either from gaining or losing relative position compared to a pilot with an equivalent seniority on the other list. T


How Piedmont, can you possibly support those whose Length of Service has been interupted by furlough? USAPA's pompous, self-serving leadership says that those pilots pushing grocery carts and throwing bags of fertilizer at their local Home Depot should be placed above pilots on the other list that were working at the time of the merger announcement. That attitude of grandeur will once again assure those on the east of the decision they so richly deserve!

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

We are one company now. Both sides bring their respective relative seniorities into the mix as well as their respective longevity. So merging the two groups by relative position should then be adjusted for longevity - or vice versa. Both elements should be considered and addressed. Not one at the expense of the other.

I am obviously biased toward longevity for all the reasons that have been articulated since this debate began - mea culpa.

"Both elements should be considered and addressed."

Ahh - too bad the former east Merger Committee did not take this approach. Instead they pushed blindly for what they believed (to the encouragement of the angry FO club) was their entitlement. A huge, ill advised gamble that they knew would result in union anarchy had they failed. Had the east taken a different tack, perhaps - just perhaps - we would be past the seniority thing and on to a better life (IE - contract) for all.

 

[Piedmont1984]

"Both elements should be considered and addressed. Not one at the expense of the other."
Actually they are.

(T or F) One's longevity derived from their DOH, determines their seniority and position on their respective seniority list. T

(T or F) When merging two separate lists. merging pilots with similar relative positions on their respective lists together on the new, combined list prevents either from gaining or losing relative position compared to a pilot with an equivalent seniority on the other list. T


How Piedmont, can you possibly support those whose Length of Service has been interupted by furlough? USAPA's pompous, self-serving leadership says that those pilots pushing grocery carts and throwing bags of fertilizer at their local Home Depot should be placed above pilots on the other list that were working at the time of the merger announcement. That attitude of grandeur will once again assure those on the east of the decision they so richly deserve!

You are doing it again - and making my point. You argue for relative position at the expense of longevity.

Between the two, longevity is far more difficult to earn.

 

[prechilill]

You are doing it again - and making my point. You argue for relative position at the expense of longevity.

Between the two, longevity is far more difficult to earn.

I am sure Braniff, Eastern and Pan Am pilots would agree with you. So why not give the ex-Braniff guys their DOH? Why not give the Empire pilots their DOH? I see, it all depends on what personally benefits you most...

 

[Piedmont1984]

I am sure Braniff, Eastern and Pan Am pilots would agree with you. So why not give the ex-Braniff guys their DOH? Why not give the Empire pilots their DOH? I see, it all depends on what personally benefits you most...

Because we did not merge with these entities.

National seniority should have been implemented decades ago. Now it's too late.

 

[prechilill]

Because we did not merge with these entities.

National seniority should have been implemented decades ago. Now it's too late.

But you merged with Empire... What about them? Why not give them their DOH? We addressed this very topic about a year ago on here and you and your friends on here basically said "what's done is done and it won't matter anyway". It may not have been you particularly but the people you sing around the USAPA campfire with, I can't remember. Well, AOL really enjoyed watching USAPA talk out of both sides of their mouth between the Empire and Addington cases and I am sure the jury will be just as thrilled to see how USAPA is nothing more than a weathervane twisting in their own wind on the DOH issue.
I can understand that your position is saturated with your own interests, being ex Piedmont I imagine your weren't too happy about DOH when you merged with USAir. Now of course, you are a big proponent because it is what suits you most. But here is some advice for you and your campfire buddies on here, just because the west has a different version of what is fair doesn't mean we are spoiled children. We just want what we came to this merger with, that is all. You mischaracterize us and people like Jim just because we don't agree with your version of what is fair. And that is why there never will be any agreement among us on this issue. What remains for your union, however, will most likely be a court ordered remedy to follow. After the million spent on arbitration, the million spent on AOL and the baseless, frivolous lawsuit against 18 of our pilots, the lawsuit against our MEC and the stealing of our CBA, many of the west pilots have reached the point where we can care less what you think is fair, and even less of what you feel you are entitled to. You guys out east are bitter because your airline had been dying for 15 years before Parker bought the corpse. I guess he didn't realize (no surprise) the corpse was best suited to be an organ donor. Oh well. Grabbing USAir certainly wasn't his first blunder.