Uneaten food in DFW

[Overspeed]

bigjets,
The judge saw through 591s arguments clearly when he opened his decision to dismiss. Even he could tell the lawsuit was more about getting AMFA in at AA then it was to fix any perceived problem with the TWU structure. Time to end the internal fighting and use our union dues and other resources to get us a JCBA that puts money in our pockets.
 
http://www.local591.com/docs/591%20V%20TWU%20Decision-120114.pdf
 
"This putative class action is the latest skirmish in a long-running dispute among
 
mechanics at American Airlines over which union should represent them. Following American’s
 
bankruptcy in November 2011, its mechanics narrowly ratified a collective bargaining agreement
 
between the airline and the Transportation Workers Union (“TWU”). A group of American
 
mechanics who would prefer to be represented by another union—the American Mechanics
 
Fraternal Association (“AMFA”)—has filed suit over the process that led to the ratification of
 
that agreement. They contend that in negotiating the agreement with the airline, TWU leadership
 
favored mechanics who work at American’s principal maintenance base in Tulsa, Oklahoma at
 
the expense of Plaintiffs and others who work elsewhere. This preferential treatment, they
 
allege, breached the union’s duty of fair representation and violated their voting rights under the
 
Labor-Management Reporting and Disclosure Act."

 

[Vortilon]

I should have said they have been hit hard by past contracts as well. The thing is, I'm a guy on the internet, bob is a union official who should be working for the best contract for all of us. Not for just line mechs or trying to make some point that is a stance against corporations on the planet Zorf while he's fighting evil corporate CEOs from his mighty unicorn steed Ulysses.


Who knows what's going on his mind, thinking a contract is bad because in 2 years delta FAs might get raise making them the highest paid. That works for all of us, they get a raise we get a raise and so on. Better then bobs way of get an average, then wait 5 years, or vote down this pay raise so all the other airlines will say look at AA. Bobs thought process is damaging to the whole industry. But he speaks real nice and says what people want to hear, so he gets elected to his twu post making extra money, while everybody else just gets the one pay check.

 
 
Considering the former TWU International leaders (Little & Co.) were the architects of our current negotiating structure - it should be fairly clear what the lawsuit was for.  The current structure is set up to where the line AMTs concerns will never be heard, or if they were -  they would simply be dismissed. - it's that simple.  It is set up to where the historically compliant groups that tend to accept whatever the company throws out first - vote for, or was accepted by their local union leader through majority vote.

 

[Vortilon]

bigjets,
The judge saw through 591s arguments clearly when he opened his decision to dismiss. Even he could tell the lawsuit was more about getting AMFA in at AA then it was to fix any perceived problem with the TWU structure. Time to end the internal fighting and use our union dues and other resources to get us a JCBA that puts money in our pockets.
 
http://www.local591.com/docs/591%20V%20TWU%20Decision-120114.pdf
 
"This putative class action is the latest skirmish in a long-running dispute among
 
mechanics at American Airlines over which union should represent them. Following American’s
 
bankruptcy in November 2011, its mechanics narrowly ratified a collective bargaining agreement
 
between the airline and the Transportation Workers Union (“TWU”). A group of American
 
mechanics who would prefer to be represented by another union—the American Mechanics
 
Fraternal Association (“AMFA”)—has filed suit over the process that led to the ratification of
 
that agreement. They contend that in negotiating the agreement with the airline, TWU leadership
 
favored mechanics who work at American’s principal maintenance base in Tulsa, Oklahoma at
 
the expense of Plaintiffs and others who work elsewhere. This preferential treatment, they
 
allege, breached the union’s duty of fair representation and violated their voting rights under the
 
Labor-Management Reporting and Disclosure Act."

 
 
Said the judge who doesn't have to work under the POS contract.  It's pretty clear this judge was coached on what to say, to support this clearly slanted position.

 

[chilokie1]

If the company be leaves "divide and conquer" the employees is a tactic that works, they have won!
As a Tulsa AMT I'am the "source of the problem" if you ask most line AMT's, even though I helped
keep my shop and others in my area 95 to 100 % AMFA card signers for years. By some we are even called
"not bright", do you guys really think this is helping us solve our problems by lumping all 514 members
in the same group? Do you guys be leave that this group is really the source of the problem for AMT's at AA.
 
The TWU has worked hard maintaining a level pay & benefits package between its different title groups,
at the expense of the AMT's !!!
 
The TWU has cheated, lied, and even attempted to intimidate its AMT members in its fight against AMFA!!
 
They used the  junior AMT's to get the last contract passed by letting them keep their AMT pay if bumped into a
SRP shop. Funny thing is this is at the same time a lot of shops had been announced to be changing over
to the lower classification.
 
I agree there are a lot of AMT's in Tulsa who are content and could care less about their fellow AMT's who
struggle in a much higher COLA situation, but I'am not one of them and there many like me in Tulsa . So to
the guys lumping us all into the same category & line AMT's who consider themselves superior mechanics
(come troubleshoot an engine with me during a test run by the way) you are losing your supporters in Tulsa!
 
So lets focus on the real sources of our problems now and the future, the TWU, AFL-CIO, IAM & this f-----g alliance !!

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
Given the TWUs track record on screwing the line AMTs specifically for the last 12 years, why would any sane AMT put any confidence in the TWU doing right by them?  You know the way it works, the company comes to the TWU and says "here is how much we want to spend", and then the TWU starts the shell game of dividing up the money between the 7 or 8 different employee groups they represent.  Too many hands in the pot.  AMTs have got screwed out of: Two weeks of vacation, 5 holidays, holiday pay at 2 1/2 x pay, double time for extended overtime, shift differential cut to pennies, half pay for calling in sick, sick time accrual - cut from 12 days per year to only 5, no longevity pay, no uniform cleaning, half the uniforms allotted, recently, the TWU managed to let the company take away PV days - using the excuse "no other airline has PV days".  Maybe not "PV Days", but they all have "DAT days" - otherwise known as "day at a time" vacation days.  There are many more TWU give aways - too many to type - point is, time for the TWU to go!  
 
If you are an AMT as claim to be, why does this have to be explained to you?  Good God man, what the hell is it gonna take for you to realise the TWU will never have the best interests of the AMTs as a priority.  It is a communist organization by it's very nature. 

Our PV days , under normal circumstances actually saved the company money because we would use next years vacation at this years pay rates. It was pure spite and their inability or unwillingness to manage the days that motivated them to take away the PV days. Their managers were approving several weeks of PV days to people instead of cutting them off at 5. Some had taken way more than five PVs  and had less than five years with the company and left the company. So I guess the company was mad they didn't get to screw them by not giving at least two weeks in the first place.  I guess they could have sued those people but they probably didn't want to have to look foolish in court for not managing their business or admitting they only gave one week of vacation. They wanted the Union to come up with a plan and penalty for those who exceed the 5 day limit. They wanted an LOA (with no reciprocity of course) and this was while they sat across the table in contract negotiations demanding a zero cost contract. 

 

[Bob Owens]

dfwgen,
Agree, the TWU should spend more time and effort on making our profession better

By lobbying against Duty Time Limits? Or by agreeing to SRPs-OSMs? Or by putting language in the Fleet Contracts allowing Fleet to do our work? Or by allowing all our outsourced work to go overseas? These are all things that you advocated and have defended but somehow you seem to think that the Union should say ok to all that and tell our guys that if they are more productive and engaged that we can fight for better wages when the fact is we are more productive now than ever before and our compensation is worse than ever before. Don pushed JLT, PLI and all these other programs to save AA money and do more with fewer workers, after three years in negotiations Don finally threw it across the table and said "When are we going to be able to capture some of the hundreds of millions we have saved the company through all these programs?" , Jim Weel responded "You aren't, the oil companies took all those savings".  Weel was right, we gave the productivity improvements without negotiating anything for the members in return so we got nothing, and the company was able to do more with fewer people. We saw our workforce decline by over 35% by then, now its closer to 50%. You cant negotiate for something you have already given away. 
 
I'm not here to defend guys not doing their job, however there is a concept in business known as "discretionary effort" that applies here. As said above AFTER its members took a  25% cut in compensation the TWU went above and beyond with programs such as JLT, PLI etc etc and in return we lost another 20% of our compensation (along with thousands of jobs). If management allows it why should they do more? So as you continue to advocate guys going above and beyond and not applying "discretionary effort" in line with how the company is treating them how can you possibly continue to claim that if we work harder that the company will treat us better? Past results prove that when we work harder they have no reason to treat us better, in fact they treated us even worse.  The more productive we are the worse they treat us. We are the worst compensated mechanics in the industry, so what do we owe this company?  Quid pro quo. No more than discretionary effort, the minimum required to get by,  should be expected or given. We don't even have profit sharing and the company has flat out refused to even talk about gain sharing yet you are still out there saying that we should do all we can for the least they can get away with giving us.  

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
Those days are gone.  In fact, even talking about threats against other employees could land you in hot water.  One has to wonder what Overspeed's sudden fascination is - with employee productivity.  As if that would be the reason we are not paid more. 
 
Now Overspeed wants the TWU to make our profession better?  My fellow AMTs, I ask you - who has done more damage to our profession than the TWU?  The TWU put us back to the stone age in pay and benefits in 2003.  No snap backs - what kind of moron (Jim Little) accepts that?  Now, with the current negotiating structure, AA's AMTs are poised to get fleeced again.  What with 6 or 7 FSC local presidents sitting in on AMT negotiations - what could go wrong?  Yeah, just gives us all in the line maintenance side -  the warm fuzzies.

Those days never really existed, Company thugs certainly caused more damage than Union thugs. Peer pressure was the most common tactic, violence was very rare. 
 
IMO If we end up in the Association we are done. We will lose our ability to retire at 60 without penalty, we will lose our ability to work after we leave AA and instead of it being Line vs Tulsa, it will be TWU Line vs TWU Tulsa vs IAM Line vs IAM Overhaul vs the TWU vs IAM vs Title II in Fleet Locals vs The Association.  A complete and utter disaster in the making.  We need one union and we need to become more united, not more fractured. The Association will create even more divisions than we have now and it will be run by people who are not accountable to or put in place by any of us. 

 

[dfw gen]

to make matters worse the company has the holiday work list all Fu*ked up. everyone that was FORCED to work Thanksgiving holiday was charged on the holiday work list! the explanation is "you did not volunteer you were forced so we are charging you"
 
welcome to DFW folks Christmas is shaping up to be the same debacle as Thanksgiving!

 

[bigjets]

to make matters worse the company has the holiday work list all Fu*ked up. everyone that was FORCED to work Thanksgiving holiday was charged on the holiday work list! the explanation is "you did not volunteer you were forced so we are charging you"
 
welcome to DFW folks Christmas is shaping up to be the same debacle as Thanksgiving!

And I bet the DFW mechs will show outrage by working 6 days! That will really teach management a lesson.

Of course I believe all management should realize the sacrifice the employees have made and make the best working conditions possible, rather then proving they are in charge by having a harsh working relationship. If a employee isn't doing his job, discipline that employee, AA isn't the army where group punishment is the norm.

I think bobs last three posts were right on, The previous executive team took advantage of loyal work force and a union worried about dues coming in to take cuts, only to abuse the employees of AA to create today's bitter work force. Hopefully DP moves fast to rectify past practices to change the current culture amongst the employees, and I mean not just the flight crews.

 

[bigjets]

Did any mechs get Christmas off in DFW ?

 

[Overspeed]

Bob,
The TWU did not lobby against Duty Time Limits. They argued against the FAA coming up with a new interpretation based on the input of one MRO operator. The TWU asked for more research before coming out with a changed rule.
 
The OSM/SRP came up because other airlines had already started outsourcing AMT jobs. The TWU decided to try to keep those jobs in house at rates that are better than most MROs. It gives AMTs a place to bump to in the event of a RIF instead of the street.
 
When UA, US, NW, and DL went in to BK they fully opened the flood gates on outsourcing. AMR's attorneys referenced the need to outsource at the industry standard rate set by UA, DL, US, WN, B6, and AS all of which are not TWU represented airlines. Outsourcing was not a TWU give back, it was forced upon us by all those other unions that never fought for it in years past.
 
If what you say is true about Weel saying that to Don then it would then also mean if we hadn't done any of those PLI, JLT, BLT, etc... AMR would have filed BK earlier due to higher costs.
 
Instead of arguing the past why not do something now. Parker just gave the FA's the higher wage rate even though they already shot themselves in the foot through the arbitration agreement LG agreed to. Sounds like we should be in there as quickly as possible and get us money now while AA is making bank.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I find your take on the SRP/OSM interesting.  My take is that the TWU gave AA the opportunity to force licensed AMTs into those positions so they could cut their pay by $10 per hour.  As we speak the AMTs are the only group that has a lower classification they can be forced into.  But the TWU really looked out for us and we only take a $5 per hour pay cut now.  Just about everywhere you look you see examples of how the TWU either didn't protect AMTs or helped AA find ways to make them do the same job for less money.  This does not save anyone's job. 

 

[DallasConehead]

I predict this round of low fuel prices and the company making money hand over fist will be long over by the time we get into negotiations.  Due to our representatives pissing all over each other. Name one that's not.

 

[dfw gen]

Yep that sounds about right twu and or the iam cares about maintenance about as much as the company does. I can hear it now " the pie is only so big"
"Well get email next time brother"

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
The TWU did not lobby against Duty Time Limits. They argued against the FAA coming up with a new interpretation based on the input of one MRO operator. The TWU asked for more research before coming out with a changed rule.
 
The OSM/SRP came up because other airlines had already started outsourcing AMT jobs. The TWU decided to try to keep those jobs in house at rates that are better than most MROs. It gives AMTs a place to bump to in the event of a RIF instead of the street.
 
When UA, US, NW, and DL went in to BK they fully opened the flood gates on outsourcing. AMR's attorneys referenced the need to outsource at the industry standard rate set by UA, DL, US, WN, B6, and AS all of which are not TWU represented airlines. Outsourcing was not a TWU give back, it was forced upon us by all those other unions that never fought for it in years past.
 

The fact is the TWU was the only Union that stood on the same side as management in opposing the more restrictive interpretation. As the pilots have known for a long time restricting the supply helps drive up the price. People like you have worked tirelessly to do the opposite, from siding with management against stricter Duty Time limit interpretation by the FAA to siding with management to reduce the amount of Vacation we get, reduce the amount of Holidays we get, to reduce the amount of sick time we get, to reduce the rates of OT, to reduce the need for more workers by doing with less through free efficiency gains won through programs like PLI and JLT. 
 

The OSM/SRP came up because other airlines had already started outsourcing AMT jobs. The TWU decided to try to keep those jobs in house at rates that are better than most MROs. It gives AMTs a place to bump to in the event of a RIF instead of the street.
 

 
Wrong, in 1995 AA outsourced more than most other carriers. SRP s was just another way for Koziatek to give AA back the  B-scale advantage the TWU gave AA in 1983. AA's limits on outsourcing where the highest in the industry, 50% per the CR Smith letter. Yes we had language that locked in more than that but the language only protected work on current equipment. 
 
 
 
 

 
 
When UA, US, NW, and DL went in to BK they fully opened the flood gates on outsourcing. AMR's attorneys referenced the need to outsource at the industry standard rate set by UA, DL, US, WN, B6, and AS all of which are not TWU represented airlines. 
 

 
In BK they got what AA had since the CR Smith letter and the other concessions that AA had given 20 years earlier in 1983. 
 

If what you say is true about Weel saying that to Don then it would then also mean if we hadn't done any of those PLI, JLT, BLT, etc... AMR would have filed BK earlier due to higher costs.
 

So you are of the opinion that our bottom of the industry wages put AA in BK? You are the only one who doesn't think that the target was the Pilots Scope clause and pensions. 
 
 

Instead of arguing the past why not do something now. Parker just gave the FA's the higher wage rate even though they already shot themselves in the foot through the arbitration agreement LG agreed to. Sounds like we should be in there as quickly as possible and get us money now while AA is making bank.
 

Did they? Sounds like they got the extra $80 million. 
 
We should get in there as soon as we are ready. We shouldn't rush in there with a poorly structured Association where each Union appoints three people and the IAM Chairs the negotiations. We need to settle the issue of which collective bargaining agent represents us, only one, not some BS Association with guidelines agreed to by Jim Little which intends on dumping us all in that BS IAMNPF where were lose 4.8% of our pension for each year prior to 65.