Bob Owens' posts and answers to the "History Revisors" are the biggest reason I check this blog almost every day. It's great to have someone who was actually there and didn't drink the koolAid to give us the straight scoop. Thanks Bob we appreciate you more than you know.
Uneaten food in DFW
- Thread starter OldGuy@AA
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Overspeed
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Bob,
I thought Fantasy Land was in Disney World not JFK.
AA did not outsource at the highest rate. Look it up and do the math yourself.
1995 outsourcing percentages
American 18.50% Continental 45.61% Delta 12.56% Northwest 18.56% United 7.71% US Airways 29.39% America West 48.60% Southwest 68.48%
In 2003
American 21.95% Continental 39.16% Delta 23.88% Northwest 36.79% United 21.29% US Airways 35.03% America West 67.33% Southwest 59.01% jetBlue 27.27% AirTran 47.62% Frontier 52.05% Virgin America
In 2013
American 30.30% Continental Merged UA Delta 41.81% Northwest Merged DL United 52.06% US Airways 54.20% America West Merged US Southwest 59.68% jetBlue 69.46% AirTran Merged WN Frontier 55.68% Virgin America 25.37%
I thought Fantasy Land was in Disney World not JFK.
AA did not outsource at the highest rate. Look it up and do the math yourself.
1995 outsourcing percentages
American 18.50% Continental 45.61% Delta 12.56% Northwest 18.56% United 7.71% US Airways 29.39% America West 48.60% Southwest 68.48%
In 2003
American 21.95% Continental 39.16% Delta 23.88% Northwest 36.79% United 21.29% US Airways 35.03% America West 67.33% Southwest 59.01% jetBlue 27.27% AirTran 47.62% Frontier 52.05% Virgin America
In 2013
American 30.30% Continental Merged UA Delta 41.81% Northwest Merged DL United 52.06% US Airways 54.20% America West Merged US Southwest 59.68% jetBlue 69.46% AirTran Merged WN Frontier 55.68% Virgin America 25.37%
Overspeed
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The letter on Duty Time Limits from the FAA. The status quo is maintained on the interpretation. Maybe you could work with the ATD on a new proposal or research as to what is the right interpretation. If the PWA one had been used many of your "most" would not be able to CS as much. Is that what the "most" want or what you want?
http://www.twu540.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=19qrYxhnNw0%3d&tabid=1011
http://www.twu540.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=19qrYxhnNw0%3d&tabid=1011
I availed myself to the CS policy as much as I could but I would not be against changes to the policy that have made this a secondary part time job for some and a 60 hour a week at straight time for others. So the answer is yes, I would be OK with Federal Guidelines that mandate days off on a weekly basis vs monthly basis. It might sting in the beginning, but the pilots have much stricter Duty time limits than we do and over the years their pay has done a lot better than ours.Overspeed said:
Clearly if our coworkers were able to adapt to losing half their pay they could adapt to having at least one day off of work per week. One way of adapting would be by making sure we earned enough in the six so we didn't have to work seven, another is to make sure we get enough Vacation and Holidays and stop letting people like you convince others that they are saving jobs by doing so.
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BK was an "engineered" restructuring of the company. It was well planned and thought out. The APA contract was not the only issue. AMR knew that if they waited longer and entered BK with less cash they would have to get DIP financing which would have severely restricted the AMR BOD on the POR. Many of us believed that as long as AMR had a cash hoard they couldn't and wouldn't file BK. In retrospect that was a miscalculation on labor's part. Should it have influenced how we negotiated? There are pros and cons on both sides of the issue. I do know that the MCTs ended up keeping their wage rates in tact that they voted for in the 2010 CBA while M&R entered with the 2003 CBA rates which were much lower than the 2010 TA rates of top out of $38 approximately. And it was a shorter term CBA so you would be negotiating now for an even higher wage rate. Now we are still in the 2003 concessionary CBA rates with a smaller bump.
Want to fix it? Sort out the Association issues you have and get us a deal.
Want to fix it? Sort out the Association issues you have and get us a deal.
Overspeed let's give some examples of what your TWU has brought us shall we? First airline union to give away free medical in 89 when Crandall was pulling in record profits. First to bring in B scale and last to get rid of it. First and only to invent the SRP classification that serves two purposes. Gives the families of management who have no experience or aptitude for aircraft maint. a way in and makes a classification that licensed AMTs can be forced into with the loss of $10 per hour. ($5 per hour now). Offers a Junior mechanic upgrade program for career fleet service and stock clerks who have neither the will nor the interest in investing their own time and money to get their A&P licenses. This program is implemented when AA can't get any experienced AMTs to come to work for them for the lousy pay that is well behind all other major airlines. In 2003 they give AA unprecedented concessions that surpass anything granted in BK to other airlines while AA threatens to file. The concessions hit the AMTs extra hard and to this day the AMTs have the worst benefits in the entire airline industry while fleet and stores enjoy benefits still that were handed away from AMTs years ago. They also are attempting to force the membership into an alliance they do not want in order to appease the AFL-CIO. This alliance can do nothing but harm to members of both the TWU and the IAM but our leadership ignores the wants and needs of the membership. I could go on but I'm sure you remember all of this too even though you do try to put your spin on these events to try to justify them. There is no justification for any union who continues to sell out their membership and it is comical that you continue to revise history and also bad mouth Bob Owens who is actually fighting for his membership. If we had more of him we would not be in this mess. If you are an AMT and you believe the TWU is doing anything but looking out for themselves at the expense of the AMTs then you have not been paying attention, or you have a problem with reality. Maybe you have been appointed to a position that you could have never been elected to, but your loyalty should lay with the membership and not with the union. We pay dues to be represented not to be sold out time and time again. Keep in mind that the majority of the AMTs (even in Tulsa) do not think the TWU has done a good job of representing AMTs. Now we see Harry Lombardo appoint all fleet service to the ATD ignoring the AMTs once again. I challenge you to run for an elected office in the TWU and sing the same song you have sung on this board. You would not have a prayer of being elected by any AMTs.
toroshark
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Here is a fair and democratic way to sort out the representation issue. #1. Hold a internal non-binding vote to see what the Membership would like as a representational agent. Vote for either TWU, IAM, or the Alliance of the two. #2. Commit to adhering to the Membership's wishes and do whatever it takes to make that happen. If the TWU has to back out of the Alliance then they should Do it and if the IAM wants to take it to court than so be it. #3. Then get it ratified through the NMB. That would be the proper venue for the amfa and no union voters to make their voice heard. Democracy! What a concept. Not some B.S. scheme to force people into some alliance that they don't want by promising a few coins up front but taking away any power and future options. I.e. retirement plans and a change in representation if the current one is disregarding the will of the MEMBERSHIP.
Overspeed said:
UAL has for long been our primary comparator. At least as long as I've been in this industry. Our contract is based upon Delta and United, and your figures show that we outsourced more than even non-union Delta in 1995 so the claim we adopted SRPs to keep work in house that our competitors started outsourcing is false and not supported by the documentation provided. If anything after we gave SRPs outsourcing increased at all the major carriers and decreased at the minor carriers, even WN saw a decrease in outsourcing. I've long said that our SRPs helped push the other majors into more outsourcing and your figures support that.
Since AA started outsourcing A&P work in house the other major carriers that were not able to get concessions from their Unions increased outsourcing but even though AA was able to outsource in house their level of outsourcing still increased to 30%.
As for the other carriers, the minors, their outsourcing was always higher. The smaller the carrier the less economies of scale, they would often send that work to AA, UAL and Delta. America West, Air Tran, Virgin Frontier, those are places that mechanics go to in order to get the experience to get to the AA, UA, US , WN and UPS of the industry.
I'm glad you included SWA, they are now large enough to be considered a "major carrier" lets continue to do so. But forget about the Frontiers and Virgins, starter airlines where we go to get experience because the company didn't even include them. You are getting desperate. All those carriers combines dont have the capacity of AA.
Ok glad you are including SWA, so is that the new industry? I'm ok with that.
Another problem is I believe these figures are based on Maintenance spend, so that would include wages as well. The AA numbers may be skewed because mechanics at AA lost pushbacks and deicing and that loss would not be reflected because the work went to Fleet Service. The cost would have been moved out of the maintenance costs. Work that went to SRPs would also not be counted as outsourced even though as far as A&P mechanics it was.
Uniteds spend may be higher because their language forces them to send Narrow bodies to domestic MRO's, AA can send theirs anywhere and they are not able to hide their outsourcing of A&P work internally like AA can.
So if the numbers were NOT subjective AND NEGOTIABLE as Videtich and Richard claimed then how did they get to 20% (17%) in bankruptcy when they had already given up prefunding?Overspeed said:
I agree, we should have asked to be released after we rejected the deal in 2010. Yes if we had accepted the deal Line maint would have been at a higher rate going into BK but the two other groups, Title II and Tulsa saw next to nothing in 2010, thats why they rejected it. It was a zero cost contract, and if the other one had passed those two would have gone in pissed at us, and still being the majority at the time we likely would have seen our pay cut to be the same as theirs, and never would have received even our own contributions to prefunding let alone the match. You keep forgetting that 2010 was a zero cost contract.
After just posting that the IAM agreed to 54% outsourcing you want them to be in charge of our contract negotiations?
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Bob,
I am okay with looking at the present situation. Believe we should learn from the past to help plan for the future as well.
So then including WN in the total picture, the total cost of maintenance includes the bill for internal and outsourced costs. The total cost to keep our 737s in the air is issue. How do you reconcile the difference in heavy maintenance costs between AA and WN? They do most heavy work outside for less total cost, we do ours in-house for more or less cost? Do you know?
I am okay with looking at the present situation. Believe we should learn from the past to help plan for the future as well.
So then including WN in the total picture, the total cost of maintenance includes the bill for internal and outsourced costs. The total cost to keep our 737s in the air is issue. How do you reconcile the difference in heavy maintenance costs between AA and WN? They do most heavy work outside for less total cost, we do ours in-house for more or less cost? Do you know?
