TWU negotiations.........what?

[Buck]

I wonder when the last time some people changed a tire here? guess I will go pass out and dream about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do day dream about changing a tire on one of the holidays that we have, hoping that the weather is nasty at the same time. Of course I am having this dream from my chair at OH and in the Avionics department in the hangar, warm and dry.

 

[Overspeed]

What difference does that make? Since when do workers set their rates of pay based on the performance of the executives?

We've done our part, we have increased our productivity and we have to demand we get our share of the increased revenue because if we dont they will spend it all somewhere else.

If Management chooses to blow our increased productivity it should not deter us from asking for a share of what we helped generate. The fact is we bring in nearly double the revenue per worker yet our wages are lower than they were nine years ago. We cant stop them from spending all the money on pajamas for first class, tops for the baggage carts, new terminals, new aircraft, executive bonuses etc etc so why should we accept lower rates of pay due to their indescretions?

It makes every bit of difference. A well run company that generates a significantly higher premium or yield for their services has the ability to compensate their employees better. Using your example, management can continue to run the company badly and could pay each employee more even though they could not generate enough revenue to cover their operating costs. That would eventually lead to Chapter 11 since it is not sustainable over the long run.

Your idea of collective bargaining in spite of all logical reasons that you are wrong highlights how screwed we are with the present group of negotiators.

Sounds like you are looking to use negotiations as a tool to get even, not get the members the best possible contract under the circumstances that exist at AA.

 

[Buck]

What part of "WN/FEDEX/UPS consistently makes profits" do all you line guys not understand????

I think I am going to stop using FEDX/UPS, that will show them.

 

[FWAAA]

Well once again you bring up an example of the pro company position we have been led to believe is the only approach towards bargaining. Even well meaning Unionists have fallen into the trap because their leaders have failed them. You claim that we should look at "Market Rate" as the guide towards determining what we should ask for, however that flies in the face of how unions have approached bargaining for the last 75 years in this industry and its a losing proposition for workers. If the best the union can offer its members is "market Rate" then there is no need for the Union, because after all the Market set the rate, not the leverage derived from being in and paying dues to a Union. The end result of Market Rate bargaining is frozen wages that decline in real terms and are only elevated when an employer is forced to increase wages in order to attract new or retain current workers.

A union that preaches "Market Rate" based bargaining is essentially a company union. They are basically a worker funded HR department.

Market Rate bargaining is the favored approach towards bargaining by corporations. unions use "pattern bargaining".

If the market rate for labor doesn't matter, then how come you aren't making $100/hr? For that matter, how come you aren't making $1,000/hr?

Face it, your union is so worthless (the worthless union) that you have admitted you aren't even seeking the $45/hr to $50/hr that is the prevailing market rate for aircraft line maintenance (at least at UPS/WN/FedEx).

There certainly is no need for your worthless union beyond protection of seniority and handling grievances. Your worthless union isn't even seeking the new market rate for your profession. Your members are getting very little for their two hours per month.

Time to fire the worthless union and clean house.

 

[Bob Owens]

It makes every bit of difference. A well run company that generates a significantly higher premium or yield for their services has the ability to compensate their employees better. Using your example, management can continue to run the company badly and could pay each employee more even though they could not generate enough revenue to cover their operating costs. That would eventually lead to Chapter 11 since it is not sustainable over the long run.

Your idea of collective bargaining in spite of all logical reasons that you are wrong highlights how screwed we are with the present group of negotiators.

Sounds like you are looking to use negotiations as a tool to get even, not get the members the best possible contract under the circumstances that exist at AA.

What should be the variable produced from a well run company is profits, not workers wages. You are basically saying that workers are responsible for the performance of their bosses. In effect a well run company is penalized with paying higher wages and a poorly run company is rewarded with paying lower wages. The wages should be the same. Its up to the shareholders to hold the managers they hire responsible, so what we can gather by whats going on here at AA is the shareholders dont have a problem with AA's lack of performance, perhaps the management team sold them a story about how by showing losses they will be able to lock in even more concessions and that once the contracts are locked down and discretionary spending shut down AA will show huge profits? I dont know, but what I do know is that you dont ask a buyer what they want to pay because they will never tell you the truth.

Get even? Where does that come from? There's no chance of "getting even", I just trying to get deals that will get us by. I didnt say anything about getting even, just citing the fact that Pattern Bargaining is the strategy employed by unions for decades and the fact that you, like a true company man cite "Market rates", the strategy preferred by employers as a basis for negotiations. You probably also supported the failed "Credible Table Position Strategy" as well.

 

[Bob Owens]

If the market rate for labor doesn't matter, then how come you aren't making $100/hr? For that matter, how come you aren't making $1,000/hr?

I didnt say that the Market rate has no effect, I said that our approach to bargaining should be pattern based, like it was for many many years. Why not $100 or $1000, because that would be outside the pattern, which right now is topped out at $50.

I agree that you are right that its pathetic as far as what we are going for but that was set in motion before I got there. For every other contract I've ever seen the objective was for "industry Leading" which meant number 1, but there has been so much damage its not likely that we can fix it one contract. We have to narrow the gap, we cant settle for a distant number 4 (I dont allow the company to choose my peers either), then UAL will take the nect step, then USAIR, Delta, in order to keep the union out will follow along with the little guys and eventually we will all be back to around the same. Its up to us not to screw over UPS, FEd Ex and WN by selling ourselves short.

 

[TWU informer]

The Theory of "pattern bargaining" might work if organized labor controls all the competition.

But when we are faced with unorganized and global competition the pattern is broken and irrelevant. The whole idea of pattern bargaining was brought forward when organized labor was more like about 35-40% of the work force. Today organized labor is less than 12% and most of that is made up of Federal and State Government Workers.

The only "pattern" we will experience is easy to see in the steel industry, automobile industry, electronic manufacturing.

Pattern bargaining in the airline industry has been used to downgrade pay and benefits since I started paying dues to the TWU. The Airlines have used the TWU Concessions to pattern givebacks from other airline workers. This is nowhere close to what "pattern bargaining" is supposed to look like.

All this time I thought "market rates" for living standards were what was being used as a basis for GEO PAY.
Stupid me.

 

[Bob Owens]

The Theory of "pattern bargaining" might work if organized labor controls all the competition.

But when we are faced with unorganized and global competition the pattern is broken and irrelevant. The whole idea of pattern bargaining was brought forward when organized labor was more like about 35-40% of the work force. Today organized labor is less than 12% and most of that is made up of Federal and State Government Workers.

The only "pattern" we will experience is easy to see in the steel industry, automobile industry, electronic manufacturing.

Pattern bargaining in the airline industry has been used to downgrade pay and benefits since I started paying dues to the TWU. The Airlines have used the TWU Concessions to pattern givebacks from other airline workers. This is nowhere close to what "pattern bargaining" is supposed to look like.

All this time I thought "market rates" for living standards were what was being used as a basis for GEO PAY.
Stupid me.

Pattern Bargaining is still being used by most Unions, even in the airline industry, The APA is using it as well. We've had Geo Pay, at the sole discretion of the company for years, they call it Flex Pay. The reason why we have that is because members, mostly in low cost areas were willing to accept starting rates that were so low that the company could not get people to take the job or retain them in high cost areas where competitors paid much more. These same members bought into the distortions put out by the Union that basically sold contracts that fell out of the pattern as industry leading. We've been dragging the profession down for decades. You dont know because you work in an enviornment where you are only exposed to AA workers, we on the line however would often come across workers at other carriers who were pissed at the concessions we kept giving the company from B-scale, 12 year progressions, retiree medical, medical, SRPs etc etc. Koziatek justified these concessions because it allowed AA to grow faster than competitors and bring in all those dues payers to the TWU instead of a the IAM, IBT or , heaven forbid-AMFA. In all those agreemnts we were sold that since our topped out wage may have been a penny or two higher that we were getting an industry leading deal, even if most workers never saw that, that practice continues to this day.

The Pension is a classic example. I recall hearing for years that ours was the best in the industry because we had the highest multiplier at 1.67 while the closest competeitors was 1.65, they would sell the lie something like this (imaginary numbers for illustration only) 'If you retire with the TWU/AA plan at 60 with 35 years in the pension you will get $2600/month but the guy at airline x who retires at 60 with 35 years in the plan would only get $2550 a month. What they leave out is we lose the first year, so if bothe employees started at 25 (which would be around right since five years heavy turbine experience was required) the guy at AA would only have 34 years in the plan and even with the higher multiplier he would be getting less because even though they were hired at the same age and worked for the company the same number of years the AA guy would have one less year to compound the multiplier.

 

[Overspeed]

What should be the variable produced from a well run company is profits, not workers wages. You are basically saying that workers are responsible for the performance of their bosses. In effect a well run company is penalized with paying higher wages and a poorly run company is rewarded with paying lower wages. The wages should be the same. Its up to the shareholders to hold the managers they hire responsible, so what we can gather by whats going on here at AA is the shareholders dont have a problem with AA's lack of performance, perhaps the management team sold them a story about how by showing losses they will be able to lock in even more concessions and that once the contracts are locked down and discretionary spending shut down AA will show huge profits? I dont know, but what I do know is that you dont ask a buyer what they want to pay because they will never tell you the truth.

Get even? Where does that come from? There's no chance of "getting even", I just trying to get deals that will get us by. I didnt say anything about getting even, just citing the fact that Pattern Bargaining is the strategy employed by unions for decades and the fact that you, like a true company man cite "Market rates", the strategy preferred by employers as a basis for negotiations. You probably also supported the failed "Credible Table Position Strategy" as well.

Again, another reason why you are not qualified to run a taco stand.

Shareholders don't give a rat's ass about executive pay or wages as long as their stock price goes up. Right now it's not but neither is anybody else's Investors must have some belief AA is going to survive BK or no BK because the invested heavily in refinancing debt just recently. AA still hasn't played the BK card but they have it available to them should things get ugly.

Face it Bob. You are up against an adversary you are ill-equipped to fight toe to toe with. How do I know this? Because we don't have a contract and you will blame it on everyone else but even if you are right and everybody else is wrong (fat chance) you are still failing because if you can't get enough onboard to believe in your principles you lose and therefore we the members lose.

But you are a fighter. Great, that still doesn't pay my mortgage.

 

[Overspeed]

Pattern Bargaining is still being used by most Unions, even in the airline industry, The APA is using it as well. We've had Geo Pay, at the sole discretion of the company for years, they call it Flex Pay. The reason why we have that is because members, mostly in low cost areas were willing to accept starting rates that were so low that the company could not get people to take the job or retain them in high cost areas where competitors paid much more. These same members bought into the distortions put out by the Union that basically sold contracts that fell out of the pattern as industry leading. We've been dragging the profession down for decades. You dont know because you work in an enviornment where you are only exposed to AA workers, we on the line however would often come across workers at other carriers who were pissed at the concessions we kept giving the company from B-scale, 12 year progressions, retiree medical, medical, SRPs etc etc. Koziatek justified these concessions because it allowed AA to grow faster than competitors and bring in all those dues payers to the TWU instead of a the IAM, IBT or , heaven forbid-AMFA. In all those agreemnts we were sold that since our topped out wage may have been a penny or two higher that we were getting an industry leading deal, even if most workers never saw that, that practice continues to this day.

The Pension is a classic example. I recall hearing for years that ours was the best in the industry because we had the highest multiplier at 1.67 while the closest competeitors was 1.65, they would sell the lie something like this (imaginary numbers for illustration only) 'If you retire with the TWU/AA plan at 60 with 35 years in the pension you will get $2600/month but the guy at airline x who retires at 60 with 35 years in the plan would only get $2550 a month. What they leave out is we lose the first year, so if bothe employees started at 25 (which would be around right since five years heavy turbine experience was required) the guy at AA would only have 34 years in the plan and even with the higher multiplier he would be getting less because even though they were hired at the same age and worked for the company the same number of years the AA guy would have one less year to compound the multiplier.

Bob, I just noticed the time stamp. How can you be negotiating a contract with all these great things you are going to get us if you are posting on this website. Aren't you supposed to be negotiating right now? Stores is meeting this week on the west coast. Wasting members money I see. Why did they pay you to go out there if you are either positing on this website about your manifesto and out of context facts, playing Airline Mogul like Luis said, or maybe even doing something as benign as playing on FB.

I hope 562 members hold you accountable for all the money and time you are wasting.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Bob, I just noticed the time stamp. How can you be negotiating a contract with all these great things you are going to get us if you are posting on this website. Aren't you supposed to be negotiating right now? Stores is meeting this week on the west coast. Wasting members money I see. Why did they pay you to go out there if you are either positing on this website about your manifesto and out of context facts, playing Airline Mogul like Luis said, or maybe even doing something as benign as playing on FB.

I hope 562 members hold you accountable for all the money and time you are wasting.

I see you have been doing much to support the AMT. I noticed your time stamp NOOBIE your about 9 years to late for any criticism. Go back to your hole and let everyone else do the fighting for you.

June 28, 2011 are you kidding me. how much time do u have in the industry 6 months

 

[Overspeed]

I see you have been doing much to support the AMT. I noticed your time stamp NOOBIE your about 9 years to late for any criticism. Go back to your hole and let everyone else do the fighting for you.

June 28, 2011 are you kidding me. how much time do u have in the industry 6 months

Having the title AMT does not mean you are one. I have been in the aviation industry for over 30 years and have time in general aviation, manufacturing, mods, and overhaul turbines and recips (CW and PW). I paid my dues.

 

[Vortilon]

Having the title AMT does not mean you are one. I have been in the aviation industry for over 30 years and have time in general aviation, manufacturing, mods, and overhaul turbines and recips (CW and PW). I paid my dues.

Still trolling huh... Still trying to sell your snake oil here. I'll say it again, I still have not met any AMTs that share your point of view. You would be laughed out of any ready room on the line. That's why Jim Little and Don Videtich are afraid to show their faces out on the line. Post your BS on this BB all you want - ain't no one buying it. Not that Bobby O needs any help, but where do you get off criticizing his efforts? If left to the likes of limp wrists like you, AA AMTs would no doubt be saddled with yet another lame contract. I believe that what comes around goes around, some may call it karma. Your greedy International heroes are gonna get their comeuppance one way or another.

 

[strikeforce]

How do you and Strikeforce define what the market rate is for an A&P line mechanic. Do you base it from comparing yourselves to peers from ATL the busiest airport in the US, or do you base it off of the location of a single station with the largest numbers of line mechanics working for AA like DFW? I see within the TWU article#4 proposal for Market Rate they used the ACCRA cost of living index but what you and Strikeforce indicate is that you want it based off of the market rate for a Licensed A&P Mechanic....What would be the market rate and how do we calculate it?

Worked my arse off yesterday in the avionics shop saving the airline, and I couldn't comment, but how does any employee, athlete, doctor, or executive calculate their market rate......they usually go after the highest wage available in that industry amongst the peers. How did Alex Rodriguez of the Yankees come to the conclusion that he was worth 250M over 10yrs??? He must of compared himself to some other ball player, right??? If we use your analogy where financial conditions of the company purely set wages then Gerard Arpey owes AA for his services. Instead, AA is losing hundreds of millions per qtr, and has accumulated 12B in debt, and he still pulls in millions based on the pay performance of his PEERS! E and others have argued his pay on this forum and I believe they said Arpey's pay was IN LINE with what most CEO's make in the airline industry.....therefore, if it's good enough for Arpey to base his pay on what CEO's at UA, CO, and DL make, then Line mechanics should be able to set our wages to what WN, UPS & Fed Ex line mechanics make. Now, whether we get that is to be determined.

 

[Buck]

FedEx is giving the AMT's .86 cents a license Jan 1st..
That raises the  FedEx license premium from $ 7.20 
to 8.06 per License. Not bad in fact highest license 
premium in the industry.

Setting aside the base pay that can be negotiated, Whether it be line or OH, Why shouldn't all A&P's receive a comparative license premium?