TWU negotiations.........what?

[Birdman]

You know it's bad when the TWU minIons can't even defend it.

 

[iluvaa]

Some more good news from the AMP press
....Again not official
We really need to get AMP or AMFA nmb cards signed before we are gutted, contact
http://www.ampnational.org/
if you care to help


UPDATE-More from negotiations:


The Companies offer includes the right to establish work schedules that include Sat & Sun without restriction to 7 day coverage and eliminates the (1/7th rule). The Company will use the tech crew chief rules when picking regular crew chiefs, eliminate PV days, it allows for management to develop new field trip procedures, eliminates all job protection language and available seat mile restrictions. Allows for the use of OSM's on the docks and increases our medical costs.


These are just the things in the lowlight sheet, there is know telling what under the table backroom deals the company and the union are not telling us about!!

Can anyone explain why we should vote yes
Let them impose it if they must but to agree to it is So Fing stupid

 

[Bob Owens]

ROFLMAO
get the younger generation excited. Thats good just start off with the one weeks vacation for five years working every holiday on nights for the first 20 years that should have them stampeeding towards the door. The EXIT door
LOL LOL

Each and evry one of us mechanics should make a point of going to the schools that are left and inform those few who have been hoodwinked as to what they face if they decide to go into this industry. I did that around 10 years ago, they where anxious to hear what I had to say and read what I was passing out, Kids would stop other kids and say to their classmates "Hey, you gotta read this". Most were stunned, but thankful. One asked me why I was doing this, I told him that as long as the airlines get a steady supply out of schools it hurts my chances of being able to make it better. That was more than 10 years ago, things are much much worse now.

Food for thought. AAR says they are already short 500 mechanics, well if the MROs are already short how could they do our work?


Here is one of the things I passed out, I think its from the late 90s. Some of it came true, some didnt.

So, You Want To Be An Aircraft Mechanic?


Well before you do, try asking the 190,000+ licensed A&Ps out there who aren’t working as A&Ps why they’re not. Or, ask the 137,000 A&Ps who are working in aviation if they would recommend Aircraft Maintenance as a good career choice.
According to the FAA there are over 330,000 license holders of working age out there. The industry employs 137,000 of them. That leaves over 190,000 extra A&Ps out there. Despite that there has been a misleading campaign touting the so called “mechanic shortage”. The fact is there are nearly 3 A&Ps out there for every one job. The “shortage” is a myth. A myth put forward by an industry that refuses to pay a fair wage for what they expect from these skilled workers. The motive for the myth is aimed at one thing; Lower labor costs. Over the last 20 years Aircraft Mechanics have lost 40% of their buying power. Far more than most workers. In fact, at some airlines starting wages are lower now than they were nearly twenty years ago.
The “shortage myth” has several uses for the industry. It can be used by A&P schools to help fill seats and raise revenues for the schools. Schools can tell students that the shortage not only will guarantee prospective students a job upon graduation but that supply and demand will drive wages up. This sales pitch has been around a long time but there has never been, and most likely will never be a true shortage of A&PS. The shortage myth can also be used by the industry to push for legislative changes in the rules that govern the airline industry called F.A.Rs. Last year the FAA proposed a revision called FAR 66 that could drastically reduce the need for A&Ps by creating several sub-classes of mechanics. With several unionized aircraft mechanics contracts coming up for renewal (all of which lack a sufficient SCOPE clause that would protect them against such changes) the FAA discretely tabled the revision so the airlines could have contracts in place before the part 66 revisions are put into effect. (If you do decide to come into the industry you will see that the FAA and the industry have a cozy relationship.)
When part 66 kicks in there will be an even larger surplus than there is today since airlines will be able to train anyone for a specific job and that person will be able to sign off that job in the logbook. The airlines may also try to further erode FAR145, which governs line maintenance. They may claim that because of the “shortage” they cant get certain work done here so they may try to ship even more maintenance overseas. Overseas aircraft maintenance has always been a politically “hot” topic. The FAA, according to its former head, Mary Schiano, doesn’t even adequately monitor maintenance here in the USA never mind foreign repair stations.(Now you know why she is the ‘former head’ of the FAA) The FAA cant do surprise inspections in foreign countries. Despite this, the excuse of the mythological “shortage” can make foreign maintenance more politically acceptable in Washington DC. This could result in the complete export of overhaul maintenance, which could cut the demand for A&Ps by more than 50%. The loss of overhaul could eliminate the need for over 90,000 currently employed mechanics. The FAR 66 revisions could cut the need for line maintenance down by at least 60% since 60% of line maintenance involves ATA chapter 25 items, all of which could easily be transferred to one of the new sub-classes of mechanics. This loss would add another 28,000 to the surplus. The total need for A&Ps would drop to around 19,000 making the surplus over 310,000 or about 16 mechanics for every 1 job.
Before you decide to invest and commit yourself to becoming an aircraft mechanic you should find out as much as you can from sources other than the schools or the airlines. The schools may try to fill your head with the ”Glory of Aviation” but the reality of the job is far from glorious. The job may have had some good points but here are some of the real issues that you will face as an A&P;
Working Conditions; A majority of aircraft line maintenance is done OUTSIDE, at NIGHT, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, 365 DAYS A YEAR. You can forget about having Saturday and Sunday off for at least 30 years. You can forget about having off on holidays too. With Aircraft Line Maintenance the skeleton crews are days and afternoons, most mechanics work nights. Mechanics are out there working in the middle of every night, even in February, while the rest of the world is home, cozy in bed.
Liability: As an aircraft mechanic you are liable for the work you do, forever . An example of this is the recent Alaska Airlines crash. Mechanics who worked on that airplane over two years ago are being investigated and having to testify as to what they did then, now. Another example is the 1985 JAL 747 crash that was due to a faulty repair that made in 1978, 7 years earlier. The ValueJet disaster led to mechanics being charged with mass murder. One mechanic fled the country. The 1979 crash of an American Airlines DC-10 led to a mechanic committing suicide. Even though the stakes are very high, mechanics are put under tremendous pressure to make sure that planes get out “on –time”. This pressure for timeliness most assuredly played a role in the deaths of the over 1000 people who perished in the four above tragedies and the resultant suffering of guilt for the mechanics who worked on those planes. Airplanes don’t make money sitting on the ground and businessmen have a high tolerance for risk, especially if they can hang someone else when things go wrong. With the pilot already dead the only neck left is the mechanics.
Flight Benefits; Years ago flying was expensive. Airplanes usually flew with loads of empty seats. Flight benefits were a real perk. All that has changed. Most airlines don’t give “free” travel to their workers. They give a big discount, but you have to sit like a beggar and hope that there is an empty seat. Empty seats aren’t that easy to find nowadays. The shortage of empty seats has become even more acute recently as airlines have removed rows of seats to give passengers more legroom. If flying for free is what you seek, get an airline credit card that gives you miles. You will then actually get to fly for free, with a guaranteed seat.
Commuting; Airports are big places. They need to be. Airports are designed to be as convenient as possible for passengers. Unfortunately workers aren’t given the same considerations. As airports become more congested, workers are being forced to park further and further away from where they actually work. This results in a double commute. One to the airport or parking lot, and another to where one punches in and works. This extra commute can lengthen the work-day by more than an hour. Unpaid. It’s a condition that promises to only get worse. In Boston, the Airport authority has decided to eliminate employee parking from the airport and have it several miles away. The employees there have to commute to this remote lot and then take a bus, several miles through unpredictable traffic, to work. This looks to be the future trend at other airports.
Security; The increase in security at the airports adds to the inconveniences airline workers must endure. It requires you to maintain a stack of ID cards that must be displayed at all times. If lost it costs $25 a piece to replace. If lost more than once they may not be replaced and you will be fired. The increased security also results in lines at the limited access to work areas because each person going through the doors must wait until the door closes and the electronic lock to the door resets. As an airline worker your rights are diminished because in the name of security the government has the right to search your person or your home without a warrant or reasonable cause whenever they like.
Self Disclosure: Self disclosure is a program where the airlines rat out mechanics who have made mistakes to the FAA. So while one supervisor puts the squeeze on you to get the airplane out, another rats you out to the FAA if you made a mistake. This is done even if the mistake was minor or was corrected without incident. This is something that has just started in the last couple of years. Mechanics are given assignments without all the tooling, then to avoid being labeled a “troublemaker” they do their best to get it done only to have some other supervisor from maintenance control a few weeks later report them to the FAA for deviating from the paperwork. The airline doesn’t care, they assign the work without making sure that all the proper tooling is available, local management applies the pressure to get the work done then a few weeks later the mechanic gets burned.
Drug Testing; As a safety sensitive worker you will be subjected to the indignity of random drug testing. Random drug testing isn’t done to determine if you work under the influence of drugs. The timeline between the test and the results is several weeks. It determines what you do in your own time. The method for determining who gets tested is controlled by the company. It’s supposed to be random but there seems to be a strange correlation between outspokenness and drug testing. Apparently, outspoken mechanics appear to be getting tested at rates that don’t appear to be random.

Compensation; Here is the Biggie. Compensation for aircraft mechanics has been in a nosedive for nearly 20 years. In 1984, a Junior Mechanic at American Airlines would start at a base rate of $15.58/hr (actual amount). Now a junior starts at $9/hr. You would be hard pressed to find a similar scenario anywhere, in any industry. If that’s not bad enough in 1984, a junior would progress to a mechanic in one year and top out two years later. The present contract at American has a four year junior program that leads to an additional 5 years to top rate. In that same time span, top pay has only gone up $5/hr. It has been out paced by inflation by over 30%. In addition to those losses mechanics now have to pay for their medical benefits. New hires don’t ever get as much vacation time as older workers. The max out after 20 years is two weeks less than older workers. Mechanics have to start to pay for retirement health benefits for 35years or more before they retire. Some dental plans have had the same dollar amount of coverage since 1967!
Conclusion.
Aviation is a dying industry when it comes to working conditions and compensation. It will be more intrusive than nearly any other job to your personal life. It will require more unpaid time devoted to work than most other jobs. The sacrifices required to pursue a career are major and the rewards are a thing of the past. The people who tell you different have self-serving motives. The schools want to fill seats. The airlines want to maintain the surplus and keep wages low. The government also wants to keep wages low to maintain cheap airfares. We also have our motives, for telling you the truth. Many of us have invested many years of our lives to aviation. We want to make it better but with schools pumping out thousands of eager new mechanics on top of the extra 190,000 out there its nearly impossible, you will be used to help keep wages low. If we convince you not to jump into this sinking ship maybe we just might have a chance of beating the odds, gaining a REAL market advantage(shortage) and earning a fair wage for what we do. If a real shortage existed, then we could actually restore our wages to what they once were. Your coming into the field won’t help us. And you will not be welcomed when you come into the field. In the past, senior mechanics used to take new guys under-wing and teach them the job. That rarely happens today. Most mechanics work two jobs and they don’t want to make the effort it takes to teach some new guy.
If you desire to talk to a mechanic presently working in the industry the easiest way may be to go to one of the bulletin boards on www.the-mechanic.com and ask for input. Good Luck

 

[Hopeful]

It appears that things are moving at an extremely rapid pace now.. As far as the TWU M&R grpup, it is also apparent they are preparing the T/A for viewing by members followed by a subsequent vote.
Since this T/A is supposedly the last best offer, for the life of me, I cannot understand why Little needs this brought to a vote. If it gets voted down, then THIS is what gets imposed..

What's the difference?

 

[AA89]

It appears that things are moving at an extremely rapid pace now.. As far as the TWU M&R grpup, it is also apparent they are preparing the T/A for viewing by members followed by a subsequent vote.
Since this T/A is supposedly the last best offer, for the life of me, I cannot understand why Little needs this brought to a vote. If it gets voted down, then THIS is what gets imposed..

What's the difference?

Its our Democratic Union way............ B)

 

[Bob Owens]

It appears that things are moving at an extremely rapid pace now.. As far as the TWU M&R grpup, it is also apparent they are preparing the T/A for viewing by members followed by a subsequent vote.
Since this T/A is supposedly the last best offer, for the life of me, I cannot understand why Little needs this brought to a vote. If it gets voted down, then THIS is what gets imposed..

What's the difference?

The difference is if you accept it you are stuck with it till 2018, or later (2022?). If our contract is ripped up you still have a Union and negotiations will continue till either an agreement is reached or we are released to self help, then strike, PEB or Congress.

Plenty of people have gone through this, when they did their employer could point to AA, then the largest carrier, and say look at the concessions and paycuts they gave ouitside of BK (in addition to the concessions AA had already recieved from 1983 till 2003, they all had good arguements for abrogation, thanks to us), well AA has nobody to compare us to and those who went through this all reached agreements. All of them came out of it better than where we are now, they all came out with better workrules, more Holidays, more vacation, more sick time etc. Nobody is working under imposed terms.

 

[TWU informer]

It appears that things are moving at an extremely rapid pace now.. As far as the TWU M&R grpup, it is also apparent they are preparing the T/A for viewing by members followed by a subsequent vote.
Since this T/A is supposedly the last best offer, for the life of me, I cannot understand why Little needs this brought to a vote. If it gets voted down, then THIS is what gets imposed..

What's the difference?

Just my opinion here but what if the "Early Out" in presented in a format that is not part of the 1113 term sheet, but becomes "Contingent" upon ratification?

Old Timers vote yes, and anyone that could be part of the "lower pay" group would love to see the old guy leave and move themselves up and out of the percentage that will take the paycut.

Truth be known, the "early out" will also come either way, but it will not be presented in this way.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

UPDATE ON NEGOTIATIONS:

YOU ARE GETTING NOTHING, PERIOD! YOU WILL BE GIVING BACK MORE CONCESSIONS. THE COMPANY IS DEMONSTRATING THEIR APPRECIATION AND RESPECT FOR YOU AND YOUR SO CALLED CAREER!

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS ARE NECESSARY

 

[BigMac]

UPDATE ON NEGOTIATIONS:

YOU ARE GETTING NOTHING, PERIOD! YOU WILL BE GIVING BACK MORE CONCESSIONS. THE COMPANY IS DEMONSTRATING THEIR APPRECIATION AND RESPECT FOR YOU AND YOUR SO CALLED CAREER!

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS ARE NECESSARY

Agreed.
I know a walk out is anti contractual, but I'd $h!t myself if every AA employee walked out on April 23rd. I'm not instigating or condoning a walk out. Just saying it would be shock and awe to see a 2012 union act like the old original unions.

 

[TWU informer]

UPDATE ON NEGOTIATIONS:

YOU ARE GETTING NOTHING, PERIOD! YOU WILL BE GIVING BACK MORE CONCESSIONS. THE COMPANY IS DEMONSTRATING THEIR APPRECIATION AND RESPECT FOR YOU AND YOUR SO CALLED CAREER!

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS ARE NECESSARY

I have been saying that for sometime now

Exactly why voting YES on the T/A was the better option.
Regardless of any beliefs that the BK filing would happen either way, it was still the better option.

 

[TWU informer]

Agreed.
I know a walk out is anti contractual, but I'd $h!t myself if every AA employee walked out on April 23rd. I'm not instigating or condoning a walk out. Just saying it would be shock and awe to see a 2012 union act like the old original unions.

Why just walk out?

Why not every employee to New York and make the "march" mean something this time?

 

[odie01]

The difference is if you accept it you are stuck with it till 2018, or later (2022?). If our contract is ripped up you still have a Union and negotiations will continue till either an agreement is reached or we are released to self help, then strike, PEB or Congress.

Plenty of people have gone through this, when they did their employer could point to AA, then the largest carrier, and say look at the concessions and paycuts they gave ouitside of BK (in addition to the concessions AA had already recieved from 1983 till 2003, they all had good arguements for abrogation, thanks to us), well AA has nobody to compare us to and those who went through this all reached agreements. All of them came out of it better than where we are now, they all came out with better workrules, more Holidays, more vacation, more sick time etc. Nobody is working under imposed terms.

Bob,
Did any of these other carriers that went through BK have mechanics represented by the twu? One other thing....If the ta is voted down, and the judge implements the term sheet, can we switch unions asap if we have the required nmb cards?
TIA

 

[paul1]

Bob,
Did any of these other carriers that went through BK have mechanics represented by the twu? One other thing....If the ta is voted down, and the judge implements the term sheet, can we switch unions asap if we have the required nmb cards?
TIA

get off the AMP thing, you guys where no close last year and still not close.


The buy out it will be a big joke, go check a system senoirity list, start looking at guys 1984 see how many guys are going.

twu still silent and running deeper!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Overspeed]

The difference is if you accept it you are stuck with it till 2018, or later (2022?). If our contract is ripped up you still have a Union and negotiations will continue till either an agreement is reached or we are released to self help, then strike, PEB or Congress.

Plenty of people have gone through this, when they did their employer could point to AA, then the largest carrier, and say look at the concessions and paycuts they gave ouitside of BK (in addition to the concessions AA had already recieved from 1983 till 2003, they all had good arguements for abrogation, thanks to us), well AA has nobody to compare us to and those who went through this all reached agreements. All of them came out of it better than where we are now, they all came out with better workrules, more Holidays, more vacation, more sick time etc. Nobody is working under imposed terms.

That's not true Bob. Everyone of those airlines that filed BK went through a long period of concessions either agreed to or imposed by the court. Didn't you know that when you urged everyone to vote no? That we could end up in BK court with a gutted contract? So we vote no, get the term sheet imposed, and then we let the same negotiating team chumps that have been negotiating for five years go back to the table and get what? Will you get the outsourced work back? Will you get us full retro? Will you get us the pension back? What about retiree medical, will we get that back?

I can't wait to vote no Bob so I can see the TWU negotiating team work their magic after the BK court lets the company impose their term sheet.

 

[Buck]

1984 ---> 06/01/1984. #406 Title I. And there keeping Tulsa open


Why would you believe they are going back to 1984?