TWU negotiations.........what?

[AA89]

The partial restoration of pay and some benefits was voted down by the majority not by Bob Owens. What will you do when the 4300 jobs are gone and you really have no say in your future.
You should know that the AMFA negotiates superior rates of pay at the airlines they represent? Its too bad they dont represent us because we are at the bottom in pay and benefits.
You must be a twu rep I have been hearing that slogan for 20 years " what was probably the best possible deal in July 2010" the only thing you left out was "well get em next time" Better get a bigger soap box and lead us down the right path Im still not convinced...
But keep blaming Bob for all of the twu failures and I just might start to believe you.
20 years of concessions and you blame Owens where were you all this time and what is your plan other than vote YES

Yes the majority did vote down the T/A. I was one of them. But I wonder how many, like me, thought a better offer would follow since at least UA was in negotiations as I think CAL was too. How would they vote today? Why would anyone choose BK over that T/A? Pride? Or the belief that we would get released and have leverage that we didn't have in negotiations? Or maybe even the shut down AA and apply somewhere else and be back at top pay in 5 years mentality?
Wouldn't it be just as easy to accuse Bob of being a company tool? Whose logic has led us to BK? The company has us right where they want us. We can speculate all day long about whether or not passing the T/A would have made a difference and until the judge decides we won't know for sure. But I will bet any takers that the imposed contract will look worse and for those still around life will go on. No strikes, no mass resignations for those greener pastures. Maybe a change in representation. Maybe.
As far as Bob goes. Nothing personal against him. I think he is who he says he is. He didn't sway me in the vote at all and he is expressing his opinion like everyone else has a right to.

 

[Buck]

While dollars for jobs, just like any other item, are speculation, for me it is just what I would expect for an industrial union.

 

[paul1]

While dollars for jobs, just like any other item, are speculation, for me it is just what I would expect for an industrial union.

When is the company, I mean union going to show us that last proposal that the company passed over a week ago (not the march 22 term sheet) whats jobs the company proposed to save and etc. Whats exactly is are union doing besides going over 6500 doc.

What deals is tulsa making with there private AA and union meetings

Still kept in the dark just like they all want it.

Are the court proceding open to the public on apr 23? maybe then we can start getting some facts

 

[Buck]

When is the company, I mean union going to show us that last proposal that the company passed over a week ago (not the march 22 term sheet) whats jobs the company proposed to save and etc. Whats exactly is are union doing besides going over 6500 doc.

What deals is tulsa making with there private AA and union meetings

Still kept in the dark just like they all want it.

Are the court proceding open to the public on apr 23? maybe then we can start getting some facts

I am not aware of any deals. That does not mean there aren't any. I feel very strongly that some group is going to take some kind of compensation cut to bolster another. Probably jobs for a greater number of OSM'S.

Possibly even a classification transfer to save jobs.

 

[Hopeful]

I am not aware of any deals. That does not mean there aren't any. I feel very strongly that some group is going to take some kind of compensation cut to bolster another. Probably jobs for a greater number of OSM'S.

Possibly even a classification transfer to save jobs.

So tell us, Buck, how much do you think ALL mechanics should take in a straight pay cut to save TULSA jobs?

I'm sure you have a number in mind.

Did you stop to think that at some point, mechanics that move to OSM will making less than the Title II grpup?

 

[Overspeed]

Specifically, which part is the lie?


What part of the concessions in the t/a that 2/3rds of the membership rejected do you(all) not understand?


You(all) really should seek therapy for this Bob obsession. BTW, wasn't it you(all) that said on 7/2/11, "It's not Bob's call and he is a part of committee that reports to a larger committee that has the final say"? Sorry, cherry picking facts again.


Your (all of you) getting very skilled at these deflection techniques. We all know the TWU could never survive in an "open negotiatons" arena.


Again, there was no forward looking information on the 2010 ballot to inform those voting that negotiations would drag out for over 15 months after rejection. We "probably" would have voted differently.

I never said it was a lie, I said that most of you say the company lies and you used the company's words to cite in your post. That's all.

The biggest concession is coming in the form of 40% outsourcing. The members rejected it because they were assured they would get better. We all know how that's turning out. 2/3rds vote no now on the TA, doubtful.

That wasn't a deflection, you cited AMFA's open negotiations as a way to stop concessions. I pointed out that they gave away a ton of overhaul jobs and line jobs. That's not deflection, that's the facts.

Many of the presidents were already talking about a complete redo of the contract as they were recommending no. Why did UA turn around a new TA in less than three months after rejection, because they did not start over like our negotiating team did. UA sweetened the deal with $75K buyout, did our guys even think about that kind of deal? Guess not, they were too caught up in big items like geo pay.

 

[Overspeed]

The partial restoration of pay and some benefits was voted down by the majority not by Bob Owens. What will you do when the 4300 jobs are gone and you really have no say in your future.
You should know that the AMFA negotiates superior rates of pay at the airlines they represent? Its too bad they dont represent us because we are at the bottom in pay and benefits.
You must be a twu rep I have been hearing that slogan for 20 years " what was probably the best possible deal in July 2010" the only thing you left out was "well get em next time" Better get a bigger soap box and lead us down the right path Im still not convinced...
But keep blaming Bob for all of the twu failures and I just might start to believe you.
20 years of concessions and you blame Owens where were you all this time and what is your plan other than vote YES

Like I have said before, if you are okay with a much smaller group getting top pay and outsourcing everyone else's job have at it. I know I will get it with my time but I am not ready to shove people off a cliff to get a big pay raise. I could've settled for something in the middle like $37 an hour. Now we will get $32 instead and lose the jobs.

It's not all Bob's fault but he is posting here so it is not picking on him.

 

[Buck]

So tell us, Buck, how much do you think ALL mechanics should take in a straight pay cut to save TULSA jobs?

I'm sure you have a number in mind.

Did you stop to think that at some point, mechanics that move to OSM will making less than the Title II grpup?

Yes I have thought about the differences in pay across all mechanic Titles. I never suggested that I would be in favor of such a move. The Term Sheet was clear on wages for mechanics and the number of OSM's. If any changes are to made they will be negotiated. I do not believe there should be any pay cuts to save Tulsa jobs. Tulsa as well as the rest of the mechanics (and possibly the other work groups) have been taking pay cuts since I walked in the door. I believe that there has been a commitment by the company to keep Tulsa open, however at what cost, that is where the OSM comes in. Now how many OSM's are needed to save Tulsa?

Title II, they were literally on the chopping block and now it appears that a possible solution is to trade dollars for jobs. Are indicating that I am in favor of pay cuts and or layoffs???? I have heard a rumor that some Title II pay adjustments are going to be made? But that is all hearsay.

What I am going to look for is how many OSM's there will be when this is over and at what cost and where will they go to get them. The company can barely keep up with the training in my group now, I wonder how long and at what cost it is going to take to maintain the mechanics for the areas the company intends to keep.

 

[Bob Owens]

The biggest concession is coming in the form of 40% outsourcing. The members rejected it because they were assured they would get better. We all know how that's turning out. 2/3rds vote no now on the TA, doubtful.

Maybe you are right, maybe the vote would be different now than it was then, but it would be because of what Informer says and not because of what you say. Informer would be the one proven to be right, not you. Either way we would still be where we are, the company would still be looking for language that would allow them to eliminate over 4000 more jobs than they can now, still be looking to take away the pension, they already would have taken around half the Retiree Medical so they would have and had to increase their ASK somewhere else to make up for it (another week of VC across the board? -new hires get 0 weeks for the first 5 years, who cares that nobody else in the industry, even non-union gave these concessions right?) Whatever, It would be because the members, as Informer has repeatedly said, that vote YES have no faith that their union will fight for them or lead them into battle, that if they vote NO the Union will help the company punish us by dragging things out even longer and still not take the steps necissary to get a fair deal. Tell me I'm wrong, then tell me why. I still say never let them off the hook for bringing back bad deals by voting YES.

So, you claim that the postion we find ourselves in today is because we voted no, and that now the company can ram whatever they want down our throats because now they are in BK. Well what they can and cant do is up to us. You say that if the Judge rips up our contract the company can impose whatever they want, well they can try, what they get away with is up to us. You say we cant do anything because its illegal, well just because something is illegal it doesnt mean you cant do it. Its illegal to drive faster than the posted speed limit but everytime I get on the highway people are going over 55. Its the guys who go 90 that get bagged. So OT boycotts, sick outs etc all may be "illegal" but with the way the courts have been treating workers should we really concern ourselves with what they have to say? The RLA says that once our contracts are abrogated that we can resort to self help as well. That law was written by the Unions and the industry, do you think that labor ever would have agreed that a company can impose terms but the workers could not defend themselves? Plenty of Rail Roads went BK before the RLA and Sect 1167 of the BK code says that because of the RLA contracts under the RLA can not be abrogated, they follow Section 6. Its obvious the courts are not impartial, the NWA ruling where they essentailly say through BK the company can resort to self help, workers under the NLRA can resort to self help, Railroad workers can resort to self help if the company changes terms and conditions, but airline workers, and airline workers alone, can not resort to self help even if the company changes terms in the contract or abrogates it, with no rational reasonable reason for the exception has put us in a position thats uniquely unfair, uniquely punitive, uniquely inequitable in its treatement of Aiorline workers as compared to all other creditors and workers. What the courts are doing is allowing the company to be released but tying the hands of the Union. We are as justified in disregarding his edicts as Rosa Parks was to sit in the front of the bus. Rosa Parks voilated the law, but the law was morally corrupt, just as the NWA -APA ruling is. (I still have not seen FWAAAs response on this) What will the courts do to you, the individual member? Will they fine your Union? Yes. Will they imprison or fine me for writing this? Possibly, if thats what this country has come to. Will they come to your house and haul you off to jail if you all decide to call in sick in Mothers Day, Fathers Day, Memorial Day or any other Holiday? Will they force you to volunteer for OT? Will they make you use equipment thats defective or not follow every safety policy? I doubt it. IMO the reason why things have gotten as bad as they are is because those Judges and those politicians and the Airlines themselves were confident that we would let them get away with it, and they will not stop until we stop them and we must do so regardless of what some appelate Judge decrees. Am I blaming them? No I'm blaming us collectively.

 

[DNTULSA]

[It's not all Bob's fault but he is posting here so it is not picking on him.
[/quote]

I don't know Bob, but he has only one vote. The present AA bankrupcy is NOT Bob's fault.

How many TWU officials are feeding you the stuff you continue to spew?

 

[DallasConehead]

Bob and his vote no coalition burned down the house, took thousands upon thousands out of members pockets, and will continue to do so now that our pay will be locked at current rates for the next 6 years. Excluding those that get their pay cut. All of it was done based on half truths and ill thought out plans. He is a poor leader and has led all the sheep off the cliff and now won't cop to any of it but instead balmes everyone and everything except himself. Pretty weak.

 

[Duke787]

Bob and his vote no coalition burned down the house, took thousands upon thousands out of members pockets, and will continue to do so now that our pay will be locked at current rates for the next 6 years. Excluding those that get their pay cut. All of it was done based on half truths and ill thought out plans. He is a poor leader and has led all the sheep off the cliff and now won't cop to any of it but instead balmes everyone and everything except himself. Pretty weak.

But now he is being outvoted by the other negotiators and they are all wrong, or Little is riding rough shot over everything and the negotiators have no say. Bob played into everyone's dreams (restore and more, full retro, more on the table, TUL shouldn't have to work weekends) which are stuff we all wanted, but the realities aren't there for this to happen. At least a third of us realized this. Hopefully the $15k bet that everyone lost on will open some eyes to the rhetoric coming from the vote no coalition. They talk a great game but will not be able to deliver. I wish they could deliver I just have my eyes open to the situation we are ALL in.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob and his vote no coalition burned down the house, took thousands upon thousands out of members pockets, and will continue to do so now that our pay will be locked at current rates for the next 6 years.

We will only be stuck with it if enough guys like you vote yes

 

[Vortilon]

But now he is being outvoted by the other negotiators and they are all wrong, or Little is riding rough shot over everything and the negotiators have no say. Bob played into everyone's dreams (restore and more, full retro, more on the table, TUL shouldn't have to work weekends) which are stuff we all wanted, but the realities aren't there for this to happen. At least a third of us realized this. Hopefully the $15k bet that everyone lost on will open some eyes to the rhetoric coming from the vote no coalition. They talk a great game but will not be able to deliver. I wish they could deliver I just have my eyes open to the situation we are ALL in.

I don't know about you, but I along with everybody I have spoken with - will vote "NO" on anything the TWU comes back with. The thought is - we would sooner take our chances with Judge Lane than the TWU. We have gone this long without - why give in now? I mean "in for a penny, in for a pound". Then; next on the agenda, seeing to it the TWU is ousted - at least from supposedly representing mechanics and related at AA.

 

[Bob Owens]

But now he is being outvoted by the other negotiators and they are all wrong, or Little is riding rough shot over everything and the negotiators have no say. Bob played into everyone's dreams (restore and more, full retro, more on the table, TUL shouldn't have to work weekends) which are stuff we all wanted, but the realities aren't there for this to happen. At least a third of us realized this. Hopefully the $15k bet that everyone lost on will open some eyes to the rhetoric coming from the vote no coalition. They talk a great game but will not be able to deliver. I wish they could deliver I just have my eyes open to the situation we are ALL in.

When we gave the concessions in 2003 we were told by sonny hall that we would get it all back in 2006 iirc he said he would not rest until we got it all back. Unlike Sonny I never made any promises, I urged everyone to vote no till we get a fair deal, and I still say that. Keep voting no till we get it right.