TWU negotiations.........what?

[Hopeful]

.Bob, the new language will allow AA to just outsource the BC and other work at JFK. Who cares about filing spots in JFK as far as management is concerned. The BC, CFP, and other checks are not pre-ordained to be in JFK and with the new outsourcing language, AA can send that BC over to outside vendor. You are so smart Bob, that old scope clause prevented the BC's from being outsourced. I bet you want it back now don't you.

Personally I don't see B checks being outsourced. I believe the Heavy C's are the ones. I think the remaining Class I stations will continue to do B checks and maybe,,,,a light C....

But the twist will be OSMs will do those checks at the line stations.

 

[Overspeed]

Democracy is one man one vote, Democracy also has the element of free speech.

Yes it does. You are now on par with Sarah Palin. "I can see Wall Street from my house that is why you should listen to me."

 

[787nightmare]

American has no choice but to get it's maintenace budget leveled with it's competition. Or this BK will be squandered(in this respect-other debt, contractual issues will be achieved). Now, how they(and the TWU)go about that is the question.
I strongly suspect the TWU(as do most of you)will wiggle & squirm in front of the company(and creditors/Judge Lane)to preserve as many heads as possible-to go into damage control mode to preserve there cash cow. Hence the expansion of OSMs working the docks, in leui of AMTs. Although IMO, that's a dicey proposition for maintaining aircraft on the dock. Some will pick it up, some shouldn't even be allowed to touch an aircraft(kinda like now)...

The time has come for the day of reckoning at American. They must compete. Therefore they must level the playing field.
I believe in give and take in negotiations. I believe in being reasonable with the company & I also believe the company is truthful when saying they have get there TWU/APA/APFA budgets in line with there peers(although they definitely seemed to be wanting to get a leg up in the "ask" letter to us).
My position has always been....if the company is making money, we're going to make money. Doesn't mean it'll come easy, you'll definitely have to negotiate hard. WN doesn't sit down with it's unions and open the check book and ask "how much?"
I'll say it again....a unions ability to get a decent contract is in direct proportion to the health of that carriers balance sheet.

The company will get close to what they're asking for IMO. The judge will see what the other carriers are outsourcing and grant it to AA/it's creditors. The time is overdue for AA to get in line with the others and compete. This means the unthinkable to some. Outsourcing a negotiated percentage for wages and bene gains. And yes...I am collatoral damage.
I'll have to move on. As I read this forum daily(cheap entertainment), this is hard to swallow by those AAers that have been fortunate to continue on payroll for yrs, if not decades(some even sparred lay-off-which is almost unheard of elsewhere)....by the inevitable decision that had to be made. Arpey, in spite of the hatred conveyed on this board for him-avoided BK for years.
Horton & the board made it.

It's time some accepted this and start to prepare for the next chapter in there lives'. Cause it's coming....................unless, you want to work for peanuts, have mgt shove you around daily.

 

[AA89]

Well Nightmare you said it again but it will be ignored again. See, you can see the whole picture. You can see the other airlines. You can see the BK laws. You can see the TWU protecting heads at the expense of pay/benefits. But instead of ingoring it you accept that there is nothing you can do. To some you are weak and unwilling to fight a fight you can't win but I think you have a pretty good grasp of reality myself.

 

[FWAAA]

American has no choice but to get it's maintenace budget leveled with it's competition. Or this BK will be squandered(in this respect-other debt, contractual issues will be achieved).

I tend to agree with much of your post. I've concluded, however, that Horton has already squandered this bankruptcy by giving in on the pension termination issue. Freezing the APFA or TWU pensions won't mean larger retirement checks for most retirees compared to termination, but will cost AA cash. Cash that won't be available for raises in the future. UA and US terminated all their pensions and rid themselves of all those cash obligations. Immoral? Perhaps. Evil? Maybe. Cost advantage? Certainly.

Yes, the others (DL, NW and CO) froze their plans instead of terminating them (except for DL's pilots' plan, which DL terminated). DL will face fairly high pension cash requirements for many years, but the absence of labor unions (other than the pilots) provides DL with some flexibilities that result in lower costs as an offset. Those flexibilities help make up for the DL/NW pension cash payments. CO? It was very small when it froze its pensions and its cash pension obligations are not large, especially since it merged with UA, which has no residual pension obligations (having terminated all of them). CO's rather small pension costs are relatively affordable for a $38 billion airline. Bottom line: UA and DL have a permanent cost advantage over AA if AA does not terminate its very large, very underfunded pensions.

So far, AA is the only airline to file Ch 11 and not demand large hourly paycuts, instead relying on productivity improvements, relaxed scope, more outsourcing and reduced headcount to achieve its labor cost savings. Off that bat, I thought that was a strategic mistake, but it does give Horton the ability to say "At least I didn't whack your hourly pay the way they did at UA, US, DL, NW or CO when they filed their bankruptcies." Some AA employees (not the typical vocal ones who post here) might give Horton some credit on that score. On the pensions, however, not terminating them doesn't provide more money for most employees, so there's no comparable credit to give him (if one was so inclined).

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm sorry, I forgot you are a big bad union president and don't work midnights anymore.

I was on steady days for years before taking this position. I already had days with weekends off and went home everyday. I enjoy the privilege my peers gave me and I do what I said I'd do and its not as if I fear going back to the floor again. I say what I say and I dont hide behind an alias.

Bob, the new language will allow AA to just outsource the BC and other work at JFK. Who cares about filing spots in JFK as far as management is concerned. The BC, CFP, and other checks are not pre-ordained to be in JFK and with the new outsourcing language, AA can send that BC over to outside vendor. You are so smart Bob, that old scope clause prevented the BC's from being outsourced. I bet you want it back now don't you.

New language? I was unaware anything was TA'd or imposed.You just listed several reasons why we should vote NO, how about listing some reasons we should vote yes?

You complain because you say the company is moving backwards and things are worse than they would have been, well why do you suppose that is?

Do you believe that we really should not expect what mechanics at other carriers get?

 

[787nightmare]

Well Nightmare you said it again but it will be ignored again. See, you can see the whole picture. You can see the other airlines. You can see the BK laws. You can see the TWU protecting heads at the expense of pay/benefits. But instead of ingoring it you accept that there is nothing you can do. To some you are weak and unwilling to fight a fight you can't win but I think you have a pretty good grasp of reality myself.

Hey guy...not looking for applause, but thanks. Just adding to the entertainment-I guess. 😉
I just hope all concerned are "preparing for the worst, and hoping for the best".

I've been out there-a few times, it's not good. Especially in TUL. I let the hope being with the family/wife, "something will turn up" get the best of me. I spent waayy too much time waiting on TUL.
These guys better start searching in Dallas and Houston. TUL is pathetic as far as wages, employment.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I tend to agree with much of your post. I've concluded, however, that Horton has already squandered this bankruptcy by giving in on the pension termination issue. Freezing the APFA or TWU pensions won't mean larger retirement checks for most retirees compared to termination, but will cost AA cash. Cash that won't be available for raises in the future. UA and US terminated all their pensions and rid themselves of all those cash obligations. Immoral? Perhaps. Evil? Maybe.

You have not considered that the PBGC was the first in line to get paid if they terminated the pension. That would have taken most of the cash since it is so under funded. So they freeze it and then tell the judge it shows they are barganing in good faith when they didn't intend to terminate it (yet). IMO Horton and co. did this as a strategic move to garner favor with the judge. They have already said they could go back at a later date and terminate the pensions. So this leaves a carrot for future negotiations. Unless, of course, this BK creates a ripple effect and the rest of the industry files again. This could be the way all of them get around the RLA.

 

[AA89]

[quote name='Bob Owens' timestamp='1333990948' post='888051'

New language? I was unaware anything was TA'd or imposed.You just listed several reasons why we should vote NO, how about listing some reasons we should vote yes?

You complain because you say the company is moving backwards and things are worse than they would have been, well why do you suppose that is?

Do you believe that we really should not expect what mechanics at other carriers get?
[/quote]

Language that is in the ask by the company and that all of us are pretty sure will end up being just about what we end up with. Even you are basing your arguments on the ask.

The company is moving backwards because they can and we can't stop them. Thanks BK laws.

We can absolutely expect what mechanics at other passenger carriers get. All 3 or 4 thousand of us that are left if we in fact have a maintenance department like them. This will never happen. Thanks TWU.

 

[FWAAA]

You have not considered that the PBGC was the first in line to get paid if they terminated the pension. That would have taken most of the cash since it is so under funded.

No, no, no. The PBGC would have been entitled to a large chunk of new stock, but would likely have received no cash. Generally, the unsecured creditors will get stock as the company will usually argue that the cash is necessary for the debtor's plan of reorganization to have any chance of success. None of AA's pre-petition creditors will get much cash. I don't think that the PBGC got cash in the UA, US or DL bankruptcies. Stock and maybe some low-interest notes. Not cash.

Sure, some have said that AA's other unsecured creditors are now happy that the PBGC won't be getting a huge block of stock (leaving more for them, the other creditors), but that doesn't make much sense. As a creditor, wouldn't you be happier if the debtor rid itself of more of its obligations, even if it meant more stock to the PBGC? I certainly would, since fewer remaining obligations increase the chances that AA successfully reorganizes.

So they freeze it and then tell the judge it shows they are barganing in good faith when they didn't intend to terminate it (yet). IMO Horton and co. did this as a strategic move to garner favor with the judge. They have already said they could go back at a later date and terminate the pensions. So this leaves a carrot for future negotiations. Unless, of course, this BK creates a ripple effect and the rest of the industry files again. This could be the way all of them get around the RLA.

Maybe you're right. After it's all said and done, it would be great to hear Horton's rationale for his quick turnabout on the pension termination. IMO, he folded too fast and I don't see the upside for AA for his quick surrender.

 

[dfw gen]

If you look at the stock market run since November it would be tough to terminate the pensions as the pension funding percentage increases as the market rises......

 

[Vortilon]

Yes it does. You are now on par with Sarah Palin. "I can see Wall Street from my house that is why you should listen to me."

Yeah, that's about as funny as your current President when he too misspoke that there were 57 states. At least Sarah was born in the USA.

 

[Overspeed]

I was on steady days for years before taking this position. I already had days with weekends off and went home everyday. I enjoy the privilege my peers gave me and I do what I said I'd do and its not as if I fear going back to the floor again. I say what I say and I dont hide behind an alias.

New language? I was unaware anything was TA'd or imposed.You just listed several reasons why we should vote NO, how about listing some reasons we should vote yes?

You complain because you say the company is moving backwards and things are worse than they would have been, well why do you suppose that is?

Do you believe that we really should not expect what mechanics at other carriers get?

That's great Bob. So glad to hear you will not suffer any pain once the BK deal goes down. You are safe and will suffer no ill from your bad advice.

The term sheet states that AA can outsource any work up to the 40%. Vote no, yes, or go to court and looks like we are dealing with a vastly weaker scope language. At this point TA means nothing now. In court its all on the table.

Oh I expect more however its not what we expect now, its what the creditors expect and they expect no restrictions on outsourcing and the least benefits as possible so they can get higher share value in the reorganized AA. BK did not give us the ability to get more, quite the opposite, we will get less no matter what we expect now.

Bob enjoy day shift with weekends off, hope it felt good not suffering any consequences of your bad advice.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Yes it does. You are now on par with Sarah Palin. "I can see Wall Street from my house that is why you should listen to me."

lmao.....

 

[Birdman]

That's great Bob. So glad to hear you will not suffer any pain once the BK deal goes down. You are safe and will suffer no ill from your bad advice..

There's only one reason why teAAm-overspeed would not direct equal venom towards the internAAtional, who has not only evaded equal suffering, but has prospered abundantly since our demise.