TWU negotiations.........what?

[odie01]

In 2003 we took the big cuts and never recovered. Now the company with the help of the TWU is peddling another concessionary package for a duration of six more years without a raise. Do the math people. 15 years without a pay raise. Can any of you put this into perspective? 15 years!! When the vote comes I am going to vote NO. Sorry but we are so far behind and we are the worst bunch of losers for letting our union get away with this. I will take my chances with the judge instead of the TWU. Judges will look at the whole picture including what is average in the industry. The TWU is known for bringing the industry down. Maybe the judge will stop the downfall and create a level playing field. The pilots and flight attendants are leaning toward their day in court to let the judge decide. I'm willing to do the same if only we can be on the same page. Remember 15 years and no relief in sight.

15 years.
15 years.
15 years.
15 years......................

Didn't you say in another thread that you are against signing a card for another union? If that's your lodgic then I say you have no room to ####. Just like 80% of TUL

 

[odie01]

In 2003 we took the big cuts and never recovered. Now the company with the help of the TWU is peddling another concessionary package for a duration of six more years without a raise. Do the math people. 15 years without a pay raise. Can any of you put this into perspective? 15 years!! When the vote comes I am going to vote NO. Sorry but we are so far behind and we are the worst bunch of losers for letting our union get away with this. I will take my chances with the judge instead of the TWU. Judges will look at the whole picture including what is average in the industry. The TWU is known for bringing the industry down. Maybe the judge will stop the downfall and create a level playing field. The pilots and flight attendants are leaning toward their day in court to let the judge decide. I'm willing to do the same if only we can be on the same page. Remember 15 years and no relief in sight.

15 years.
15 years.
15 years.
15 years......................

Didn't you say in another thread that you are against signing a card for another union? If that's your logic then I say you have no room to ####. Just like 80% of TUL

 

[1AA]

Didn't you say in another thread that you are against signing a card for another union? If that's your lodgic then I say you have no room to ####. Just like 80% of TUL

If you are referencing the thread about another drive....
My opinion at this time is not to start a drive until this mess is settled.
I have over 20 years with AA. I started card drives within months of my employment
with AA. Numerous AMFA drives and the current AMP drive.
I am not going to go off topic here.
If you have a problem with me send a PM. Stop assuming!

 

[Overspeed]

What exactly are you saying? Throw Bob off the committee and what - bring Ed Kosiatek Back? Tell you what, why don't you donate some more pay and whats left of the benefits to preserve headcount (dues payers).

Bob is right about the international - they are parasitic posers, he is right about the NMB - that last AMFA drive proved that with the NMB accepting cards from dead and/or retired workers , and ineligible work groups, and you name it. He is also right about the RLA!

Why would Bob advocate civil disobedience and the like? You better not go tell on him! What were you, the hall monitor back in elementary school?

I hope and pray someone on the negotiating committee grows a pair soon. McCormick, Rojas, or Peterson need to step up. Ed is probably enjoying his retirement now.

Uh, $37 an hour is more than $33 an hour and yes also preserved headcount and that is bad why? The BK path is leading us to $33 and hour and over 4,000 jobs lost. Sounds like the TWU preserving dues payers idea is not happening. Jim Little should have taken control of the negotiating process a long time ago if the conspiracy theorists were right.

Let's assume Bob is right (fantasy) but let's do the hypothetical anyway. If the deck is stacked against you and you know it why would you submit a plan that you know will fail just to prove you are right? That's like saying I want to test a gun so I will point it at someone's head and pull the trigger to see if it will really kill. So Bob is right in your opinion, how does that save 4,000 jobs and get us more money? I'm just asking...

I don't need to tell on Bob, he posts his strategy daily.

Hall monitor...now that's funny!

 

[Overspeed]

overspeed

How do you overcome the TWU being labeled as "the leading concessionary union"? Why would anyone want to be organized by us? what do we bring to the table to brag about? Delta management mocks us regularly saying "why would you join a union when they give back more than us? please help me out here and give me my arguments for this as i don't know what to tell them in response.
I really don't!

I thought Bob said US Airways led the concession train in 2002?

The TWU did represent the largest overhaul bases in the US. Did...voting no was awesome advice! Where's that last best offer? Nice video Chuck but the production values are lacking and the sound effects...not so hot. The beginning sounds like a Tom and Jerry cartoon is starting.

Delta cut their wages and outsourced all their airframe overhaul with no vote and no consultation with their employees. If AA had that ability we wouldn't have TUL, AFW, DWH, or MCIE for as long as we did. In fact if we were Delta and non-union only PALM and TAESL would still be around at AA. That TWU scope language sure sucks! Delta is telling their employees one thing and doing another.

Chuck, giving bad advice and not having a well thought out plan isn't helping anyone. We as members got screwed and we are paying a steep price for a grave miscalculation by the committee members who ran all over the system spreading false hope and bravado.

 

[Overspeed]

And where does he work? I've got a couple of friends working D looking for a guy with two pocket protectors, six red pens, and a Batman utility belt with Leatherman, and LED mag. International trash at best

I had that get up when I was in QA.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

I thought Bob said US Airways led the concession train in 2002?

The TWU did represent the largest overhaul bases in the US. Did...voting no was awesome advice! Where's that last best offer? Nice video Chuck but the production values are lacking and the sound effects...not so hot. The beginning sounds like a Tom and Jerry cartoon is starting.

Delta cut their wages and outsourced all their airframe overhaul with no vote and no consultation with their employees. If AA had that ability we wouldn't have TUL, AFW, DWH, or MCIE for as long as we did. In fact if we were Delta and non-union only PALM and TAESL would still be around at AA. That TWU scope language sure sucks! Delta is telling their employees one thing and doing another.

Chuck, giving bad advice and not having a well thought out plan isn't helping anyone. We as members got screwed and we are paying a steep price for a grave miscalculation by the committee members who ran all over the system spreading false hope and bravado.

Overspeed
what good advice or well thought out plan have any of us recieved from the TWU/ATD/AFL/CIO/ TTD ? oh yeah, concessions for the company! We should not hide behind a wall of confidentiality and let the members have a voice during negotiations not after.
I have long advocated for observers at negotiations so the members can see how we are fighting for them and include them in the process but this falls short everytime by the committee. Bob Owens like it or not says what he means and backs what he says. He is forward thinking and wants us to stand up for ourselves instead of cowering to concessions every contract. When does it end?
the company "ask" is basically a non-union contract and our counter concession proposals do not help at all.
i will vote "NO" for a concessionary, non-union ,TA
The only false hope being spread around the system is that we have done our best representing the members in negotiations!

 

[strikeforce]

Overspeed
what good advice or well thought out plan have any of us recieved from the TWU/ATD/AFL/CIO/ TTD ? oh yeah, concessions for the company! We should not hide behind a wall of confidentiality and let the members have a voice during negotiations not after.
I have long advocated for observers at negotiations so the members can see how we are fighting for them and include them in the process but this falls short everytime by the committee. Bob Owens like it or not says what he means and backs what he says. He is forward thinking and wants us to stand up for ourselves instead of cowering to concessions every contract. When does it end?
the company "ask" is basically a non-union contract and our counter concession proposals do not help at all.
i will vote "NO" for a concessionary, non-union ,TA
The only false hope being spread around the system is that we have done our best representing the members in negotiations!

you're certainly including the local maintenance presidents when you say, "what good advice or thought out plan have we recieved from the TWU"? right?

who is formulating these union counter proposals.......lcl presidents or INTL?

I believe Chuck, you have to point some of the blame to Bob Owens' "witness" list, such as RJ, Pike, Cirri, Owens, Gilboy, Luis, and others for our failure with negotiations at the table. Are these guys not AMT's like you and me?? So, why aren't these guys looking out for our best interest at the table and rejecting anything that is concessionary??

 

[Chuck Schalk]

you're certainly including the local maintenance presidents when you say, "what good advice or thought out plan have we recieved from the TWU"? right?

who is formulating these union counter proposals.......lcl presidents or INTL?

I believe Chuck, you have to point some of the blame to Bob Owens' "witness" list, such as RJ, Pike, Cirri, Owens, Gilboy, Luis, and others for our failure with negotiations at the table. Are these guys not AMT's like you and me?? So, why aren't these guys looking out for our best interest at the table and rejecting anything that is concessionary??

The committee as a whole is voting and the minority like Bob are out voted. This is why we need observers to see where the committee is lacking and not after the tA is done

 

[strikeforce]

The committee as a whole is voting and the minority like Bob are out voted. This is why we need observers to see where the committee is lacking and not after the tA is done

so, while WE blame the INTL for most of our failures, blame squarely falls on the shoulders of the committee. The witnesses, as Bob Owens calls them. The contract, although owned by the INTL, is negotiated by AMT's like you and I. And, that's really been the focal point on why WE need observers, and professional negotiators. Why would the committee be against having observers?? unless, they don't want US watching the circus atmosphere, cherades and non-sense. If WE can all be flies on the wall in Flagship U......we would see the real circus.

You've got to love it Chuck, our own guys at the table accept inferior T/A's, come on floor and blame the INTL, won't recommend voting for something THEY passed, and then, tell us it's the best your gonna get. Why accept it in the first place???

While I blame the company for mis-managing AA, it's the local maintenance presidents that have continually accepted concessionary contracts. They have placed US at the bottom of the airline industry.

And, this is exactly what I told Bob Owens in one of my very first posts on this forum last year.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, do you think the 4,300 that will probably get RIF'd due to BK give a damn about you getting MRP? Really? Again, it's all about Bob.

I havent had to work midnights in years, wouldnt do it for $1.09 an hour, wouldnt do it for $1.50 an hour. Nice attempt at spinning.

Bob, sacrificing thousands of overhaul jobs and working at below AA rates since 2003 is now made up for by what at UAL? Do you know that UAL has NO cap on utility people who work what AA uses AMTs on now and under the TA? Better ask the UAL/IBT reps. The language has no cap. AA would love that.

Bob, lies again. The wage opener would allow the TWU to reopen the contract instead of waiting years like we did under the 1995 agreement.

We are in BK, so forget the TA, we would still be in BK if we had TAd that turd, look at every other carrier that went through it. If they really want to get rid of those jobs, and everyone else already has, its pointless to try and stop it. Save the wage so they have something good to come back to if they dont find something better. If I were 25 years old with little seniority I would, and did, expect the same. If I knew now what I didnt know then I never would have come back. I tell all the young guys, "Get out", because it just keeps getting worse (because of guys like you)I told them flat out my position was cut heads not compensation, not one dissagreed, why would you? You already said you wont be affected, why are you so willing to lower the wages again? Obviously you do not have to live under them.

How would you know whats in the "reopener"? Is it TA'd? In 1995 we were told that we could reopen negotiations if the pilots or any other work group got more than we did, they did, the contract was not opened. In 2003 we had the 2006 reopeners, only Dispatch opened the contract and they are still in negotiations. A "reopener" is just that, reopen, its worthless unless it mandates that a new agreement it met within a certain timeframe.

You talk a good line but the reality is we are about to get shafted. You won't be satisfied until YOU get top pay. Outsource whatever as long as you keep working. 4,300 will be sacrificed and we will now be at the lowest pay in the industry. You say just vote no again. For what? The promise that you and the rest of TWU reps will negotiate a better deal. This negotiating team has shown that they deserve about as much respect and trust as AA management.

Time for the negotiating committee to call grow a pair and vote you off the island. Think about it, here is someone who blames the NMB, the Int'l, AA management, Wall Street, the RLA, and a multitude of others for why his delusions of grandeur have not come to fruition. Now he is advocating to disobey the court, civil disobedience, and illegal job actions if we don't get what at least what UA/CO IBT got. But we had that under the TA and more.

Bob your are nothing more than a wanna be Mike Collins sacrificing thousands of members while backstopping your livelihood with seniority that keep you very much insulated from your own job loss. Nice Bob, your a real union bad a**!

Is there a question in there? A lot of accusations, like I brought up before, from behind an alias, what does that make you?

We had what UA/CO has and more in the TA? Really? Where? Are you speaking from a company perspective or a Union perspective?
Holidays? No
Vacation? No
Sick Time? No
Wages? No
Pension? No
$75000 early out? No
Equity in the company-No
Doubletime? No
Convertible Notes? No
Contractual CS language?- No
IOD Time?-No
Tool allowance?-No
Rapid reaccrual of Sick time for catastrophic event? No
401K match on all earnings? No
Sick time to buy retiree medical at 11 hours per month of 12 day per year bank?-No

You claim we will lose 4300 jobs. Well we already lost 5000 and we have nobody on the recall list. We have 20+ year guys whose primary concern is how long will they have to wait for the Stand In Stead and some sort of a buyout. Even if the company does decide to outsource 4300 jobs they wont do it overnight, it would take months or years to find places to do the work. Capacity is tight and getting tighter. Each year around 500 attrit out, so even if they did reach 4300, 3000 would have attrited out by then. Look at the last four years of negotiations, every fall they announced a layoff, they even closed MCIE but yet they were hiring peopel off the streets last year, and had a hard time filling spots in places like JFK (despite the claim of 800 applicants).

Keep spinning, keep trying to cause a panic, more and more could care less if the place liquidates.

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed
what good advice or well thought out plan have any of us recieved from the TWU/ATD/AFL/CIO/ TTD ? oh yeah, concessions for the company! We should not hide behind a wall of confidentiality and let the members have a voice during negotiations not after.
I have long advocated for observers at negotiations so the members can see how we are fighting for them and include them in the process but this falls short everytime by the committee. Bob Owens like it or not says what he means and backs what he says. He is forward thinking and wants us to stand up for ourselves instead of cowering to concessions every contract. When does it end?
the company "ask" is basically a non-union contract and our counter concession proposals do not help at all.
i will vote "NO" for a concessionary, non-union ,TA
The only false hope being spread around the system is that we have done our best representing the members in negotiations!

Vote no? Okay. You like getting losing and blaming others, I get it.

Bob is forward thinking, uh each deal takes us progressively backwards if you haven't noticed.

When does it end? I guess we will find out because if we get a deal before the hearings it will be bad and we will lose jobs and if we don't accept or get a deal it will be worse and we won't have a choice. So it will end when there is enough bodies on the floor.

Keep using buzz words that are your attempt to rally the troops but for what? To go over the top and get mowed down by the thousands while you and Bob sit high enough up the seniority list that you have nothing to fear...yet.

Still waiting for my full retro and geo pay.

 

[Overspeed]

The committee as a whole is voting and the minority like Bob are out voted. This is why we need observers to see where the committee is lacking and not after the tA is done

Out voted, and that's called democracy. Bob loses his arguments so he spreads hate and discontent on the internet. Sounds like a spoiled child who didn't get it his way. Maybe Jim needs to finally put little Bobby over his knee and spank him.

 

[Bob Owens]

Out voted, and that's called democracy. Bob loses his arguments so he spreads hate and discontent on the internet. Sounds like a spoiled child who didn't get it his way. Maybe Jim needs to finally put little Bobby over his knee and spank him.

Democracy is one man one vote, Democracy also has the element of free speech.

 

[Overspeed]

I havent had to work midnights in years, wouldnt do it for $1.09 an hour, wouldnt do it for $1.50 an hour. Nice attempt at spinning.



We are in BK, so forget the TA, we would still be in BK if we had TAd that turd, look at every other carrier that went through it. If they really want to get rid of those jobs, and everyone else already has, its pointless to try and stop it. Save the wage so they have something good to come back to if they dont find something better. If I were 25 years old with little seniority I would, and did, expect the same. If I knew now what I didnt know then I never would have come back. I tell all the young guys, "Get out", because it just keeps getting worse (because of guys like you)I told them flat out my position was cut heads not compensation, not one dissagreed, why would you? You already said you wont be affected, why are you so willing to lower the wages again? Obviously you do not have to live under them.

How would you know whats in the "reopener"? Is it TA'd? In 1995 we were told that we could reopen negotiations if the pilots or any other work group got more than we did, they did, the contract was not opened. In 2003 we had the 2006 reopeners, only Dispatch opened the contract and they are still in negotiations. A "reopener" is just that, reopen, its worthless unless it mandates that a new agreement it met within a certain timeframe.





Is there a question in there? A lot of accusations, like I brought up before, from behind an alias, what does that make you?

We had what UA/CO has and more in the TA? Really? Where? Are you speaking from a company perspective or a Union perspective?
Holidays? No
Vacation? No
Sick Time? No
Wages? No
Pension? No
$75000 early out? No
Equity in the company-No
Doubletime? No
Convertible Notes? No
Contractual CS language?- No
IOD Time?-No
Tool allowance?-No
Rapid reaccrual of Sick time for catastrophic event? No
401K match on all earnings? No
Sick time to buy retiree medical at 11 hours per month of 12 day per year bank?-No

You claim we will lose 4300 jobs. Well we already lost 5000 and we have nobody on the recall list. We have 20+ year guys whose primary concern is how long will they have to wait for the Stand In Stead and some sort of a buyout. Even if the company does decide to outsource 4300 jobs they wont do it overnight, it would take months or years to find places to do the work. Capacity is tight and getting tighter. Each year around 500 attrit out, so even if they did reach 4300, 3000 would have attrited out by then. Look at the last four years of negotiations, every fall they announced a layoff, they even closed MCIE but yet they were hiring peopel off the streets last year, and had a hard time filling spots in places like JFK (despite the claim of 800 applicants).

Keep spinning, keep trying to cause a panic, more and more could care less if the place liquidates.

I'm sorry, I forgot you are a big bad union president and don't work midnights anymore.

Forget the TA?!?! But voting it down is a big reason we are in the mess we are in. Would it have stopped BK no but it has been said time and time again that we would have had close to $20K more in our pockets, $37 and hour, full pay sick pay, and more holidays. You would have been working from a higher level of pay than now and as referenced MCTs aren't being asked to give up wages.

Bob, UA and CO have thousands less mechanics. They outsource to China and now we will too it seems. You can pick out all the things you like about their contract but their are thousands who don't have jobs as a result. Now we will have inferior to UA/CO and the outsourcing. Awesome Bob, big win.

Really, you are trying to argue away that 4,300 will probably lose their jobs? Really? When you park close to 300 aircraft you don't need that many mechanics Bob. You know that but you cherry pick data once again.

Bob, the new language will allow AA to just outsource the BC and other work at JFK. Who cares about filing spots in JFK as far as management is concerned. The BC, CFP, and other checks are not pre-ordained to be in JFK and with the new outsourcing language, AA can send that BC over to outside vendor. You are so smart Bob, that old scope clause prevented the BC's from being outsourced. I bet you want it back now don't you.