TWU negotiations.........what?

[FWAAA]

In the link below, AA outsourced 15% in 2001 but just 12% in 2009, according to the TWU:

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/02/04/3711880/american-airlines-may-outsource.html

 

[FWAAA]

So AA owes $32.3 billion in total. Is it due right this instant? How much of that obligation isnt due for years down the road? AA also has $24 billion a year in revenue and the people who extended AA all that credit dont seem too concerned about AA's ability to pay.How much of that $32.3 billion is related to the deal they cut last summer to buy 500 airplanes? Wont nearly all that additional liability dissapear once AA cuts those deals where they sell the planes they just bought to a lessor?

My post was a response to Mr Red's post (I've included it below). He (like many others here) focuses on the amount of cash in the bank, ignoring the many billions of debt. His post implied that $4.6 billion of cash proves that nothing is wrong with AA's finances.

How much of the $32 billion is related to the order for 500 airplanes? None. Zero. Nada. The total debt, liabilities and other obligations relate to debt and leases for airplanes already on the property plus travel owed to those who bought tickets in advance plus pension and retiree health costs. The billions of dollars of new airplanes in the orders haven't yet showed up on AA's balance sheet.

Its a beautiful thing isn't it 4.6 BIL IN BANK And you plead POVERTY !!
Only in America

 

[WorldTraveler]

In the link below, AA outsourced 15% in 2001 but just 12% in 2009, according to the TWU:

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/02/04/3711880/american-airlines-may-outsource.html

and yet AA in its BK documents says it outsourced more than 20% in recent years.

 

[Buck]

and yet AA in its BK documents says it outsourced more than 20% in recent years.

The deviation on outsourcing is impacted by the unions abilities to bring work back in house. While the company claims an outsourcing percentage, they have yet to make any clarification as whether this is an airframe/engine vs component issue. I do not know the numbers, but there has been a lot of work brought back in house, proven to be cheaper either in dollars or just ROI.

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

Theres a dose of reality for you no vote goof balls.... Well put Overspeed....

Thats what happens when you are the minority. Better get your soap box and start swaying those NO voters

 

[Buck]

Thats what happens when you are the minority. Better get your soap box and start swaying those NO voters

Just as the T/A passed by a large percentage, the "contract" out of bankruptcy will pass.

 

[Overspeed]

Once again Overspeed is putting the company spin on the offer.

What the company did was offer to increase the premium for working nights to $1.50 an hour and the company shortened the window where the Night shift premium called MRP would apply so they could arrange schedules to that nobody actually recieved it. It would have been a paper rate only.

They also excluded GEO premiums that other carriers offered from the formula.

Effectively it gave the company a $1.50hr "cushion" before other carriers would drag wages up at AA.

So lets look at how this would have worked.

Lets say we have a mechanic working from 2059 to 0429 and his pay with everything comes out to 35.50. The paper rate would be $37.00 for comparasion.

So in other words even if $35.50 was in fact the bottom of the industry the guys at AA would not see their pay adjusted because on paper the top rate is $37, even if nobody actually got MRP. The company could still have 24 hour coverage without paying anybody the MRP.

The fact is the spread between what base AMTs would have been making and the figure used for comparasion would have been around $4/hr.

So a base AMT could actually be getting around $5.50 an hour less than lets say a base guy at UAL but according the the formula we may still be number 2 according to Overspeed, some in the International and the Company.

Historically the top rates are normally within a very narrow range, pennies, that agreement would have given the company a $1.50/hr cushion plus the average wage would have been much much lower than number two, more than likely bottom of the industry.

Bob, do you think the 4,300 that will probably get RIF'd due to BK give a damn about you getting MRP? Really? Again, it's all about Bob.

Bob, sacrificing thousands of overhaul jobs and working at below AA rates since 2003 is now made up for by what at UAL? Do you know that UAL has NO cap on utility people who work what AA uses AMTs on now and under the TA? Better ask the UAL/IBT reps. The language has no cap. AA would love that.

Bob, lies again. The wage opener would allow the TWU to reopen the contract instead of waiting years like we did under the 1995 agreement.

Bob face it, you keep grasping at straws and twisting facts and name calling to distract attention from your statements. BK was a threat, our jobs couldn't be outsourced, and there is money on the table.

You talk a good line but the reality is we are about to get shafted. You won't be satisfied until YOU get top pay. Outsource whatever as long as you keep working. 4,300 will be sacrificed and we will now be at the lowest pay in the industry. You say just vote no again. For what? The promise that you and the rest of TWU reps will negotiate a better deal. This negotiating team has shown that they deserve about as much respect and trust as AA management.

Time for the negotiating committee to call grow a pair and vote you off the island. Think about it, here is someone who blames the NMB, the Int'l, AA management, Wall Street, the RLA, and a multitude of others for why his delusions of grandeur have not come to fruition. Now he is advocating to disobey the court, civil disobedience, and illegal job actions if we don't get what at least what UA/CO IBT got. But we had that under the TA and more.

Bob your are nothing more than a wanna be Mike Collins sacrificing thousands of members while backstopping your livelihood with seniority that keep you very much insulated from your own job loss. Nice Bob, your a real union bad a**!

 

[TWU informer]

Bob and Overspeed,

You both have some valid points, although most based on speculation.

At some point you two are going to have to agree to disagree because there is not a chance in hell that either of you will win the debate and neither of you will ever convince the other to change their views.

It just proves that these are difficult issues and we have inferior representation at the bargaining table. That is one thing that both of you are proving to me with your arguements.

It basically comes down to two different work groups, one can be outsourced the other cannot.
Bob's view would be different is he was threaten by outsourcing, and Overspeeds view would be different if he had no fear of outsource.

TWU membership is made up of both types of members, and both pay union dues for representation. I just don't see how one group can be elminated to insure the other gets theirs. And I just dont see how one can continue to remain underpaid to keep the others working.

You both have valid points and serious concerns that will never be solved by sitting around typing opinions on this forum.

When do you think the AFL-CIO will actually succeed in getting some helpful legislation? Instead of stealing our dues and partying with politicians and zero helpful results? Or better yet, will the AFL-CIO ever figure out that politics is not the correct agenda for success to begin with?

 

[Overspeed]

and yet AA in its BK documents says it outsourced more than 20% in recent years.

WT the F41 is not always accurate. AA is in a joint venture with Rolls Royce on RR engines (TAESL). The RB211 and the Trent engine - 757 and 777 respectively - are listed as outsourced maintenance expense since AA outsources the work to TAESL which is staffed with TWU AMTs on the AA/TWU seniority list. Since TWU AMTs do the work on the AA 757 and 777 engines, internally the TWU counts that work as "in-sourced. The TAESL JV has actually demonstrated that AA can make money with higher wage rates if they have a good business plan.

 

[Overspeed]

Bob and Overspeed,

You both have some valid points, although most based on speculation.

At some point you two are going to have to agree to disagree because there is not a chance in hell that either of you will win the debate and neither of you will ever convince the other to change their views.

It just proves that these are difficult issues and we have inferior representation at the bargaining table. That is one thing that both of you are proving to me with your arguements.

It basically comes down to two different work groups, one can be outsourced the other cannot.
Bob's view would be different is he was threaten by outsourcing, and Overspeeds view would be different if he had no fear of outsource.

TWU membership is made up of both types of members, and both pay union dues for representation. I just don't see how one group can be elminated to insure the other gets theirs. And I just dont see how one can continue to remain underpaid to keep the others working.

You both have valid points and serious concerns that will never be solved by sitting around typing opinions on this forum.

When do you think the AFL-CIO will actually succeed in getting some helpful legislation? Instead of stealing our dues and partying with politicians and zero helpful results? Or better yet, will the AFL-CIO ever figure out that politics is not the correct agenda for success to begin with?

Got it.

This is Easter Sunday, the argument could return from the dead though.

 

[Vortilon]

Bob, do you think the 4,300 that will probably get RIF'd due to BK give a damn about you getting MRP? Really? Again, it's all about Bob.

Bob, sacrificing thousands of overhaul jobs and working at below AA rates since 2003 is now made up for by what at UAL? Do you know that UAL has NO cap on utility people who work what AA uses AMTs on now and under the TA? Better ask the UAL/IBT reps. The language has no cap. AA would love that.

Bob, lies again. The wage opener would allow the TWU to reopen the contract instead of waiting years like we did under the 1995 agreement.

Bob face it, you keep grasping at straws and twisting facts and name calling to distract attention from your statements. BK was a threat, our jobs couldn't be outsourced, and there is money on the table.

You talk a good line but the reality is we are about to get shafted. You won't be satisfied until YOU get top pay. Outsource whatever as long as you keep working. 4,300 will be sacrificed and we will now be at the lowest pay in the industry. You say just vote no again. For what? The promise that you and the rest of TWU reps will negotiate a better deal. This negotiating team has shown that they deserve about as much respect and trust as AA management.

Time for the negotiating committee to call grow a pair and vote you off the island. Think about it, here is someone who blames the NMB, the Int'l, AA management, Wall Street, the RLA, and a multitude of others for why his delusions of grandeur have not come to fruition. Now he is advocating to disobey the court, civil disobedience, and illegal job actions if we don't get what at least what UA/CO IBT got. But we had that under the TA and more.

Bob your are nothing more than a wanna be Mike Collins sacrificing thousands of members while backstopping your livelihood with seniority that keep you very much insulated from your own job loss. Nice Bob, your a real union bad a**!

What exactly are you saying? Throw Bob off the committee and what - bring Ed Kosiatek Back? Tell you what, why don't you donate some more pay and whats left of the benefits to preserve headcount (dues payers).

Bob is right about the international - they are parasitic posers, he is right about the NMB - that last AMFA drive proved that with the NMB accepting cards from dead and/or retired workers , and ineligible work groups, and you name it. He is also right about the RLA!

Why would Bob advocate civil disobedience and the like? You better not go tell on him! What were you, the hall monitor back in elementary school?

 

[Tex-Mech]

Bob your are nothing more than a wanna be Mike Collins sacrificing thousands of members while backstopping your livelihood with seniority that keep you very much insulated from your own job loss. Nice Bob, your a real union bad a**!

Overspeed,

So what do you do to help our profession, other than complain about Bob? Have you brought your great knowledge to your local by running for office? Are you at least a shop steward so you can help the members at your local? I've gotten involved with 567, what do you do?

 

[odie01]

Overspeed,

So what do you do to help our profession, other than complain about Bob? Have you brought your great knowledge to your local by running for office? Are you at least a shop steward so you can help the members at your local? I've gotten involved with 567, what do you do?

And where does he work? I've got a couple of friends working D looking for a guy with two pocket protectors, six red pens, and a Batman utility belt with Leatherman, and LED mag. International trash at best

 

[Chuck Schalk]

overspeed

How do you overcome the TWU being labeled as "the leading concessionary union"? Why would anyone want to be organized by us? what do we bring to the table to brag about? Delta management mocks us regularly saying "why would you join a union when they give back more than us? please help me out here and give me my arguments for this as i don't know what to tell them in response.
I really don't!

 

[1AA]

In 2003 we took the big cuts and never recovered. Now the company with the help of the TWU is peddling another concessionary package for a duration of six more years without a raise. Do the math people. 15 years without a pay raise. Can any of you put this into perspective? 15 years!! When the vote comes I am going to vote NO. Sorry but we are so far behind and we are the worst bunch of losers for letting our union get away with this. I will take my chances with the judge instead of the TWU. Judges will look at the whole picture including what is average in the industry. The TWU is known for bringing the industry down. Maybe the judge will stop the downfall and create a level playing field. The pilots and flight attendants are leaning toward their day in court to let the judge decide. I'm willing to do the same if only we can be on the same page. Remember 15 years and no relief in sight.

15 years.
15 years.
15 years.
15 years......................