TWU negotiations.........what?

[700UW]

Why should AA supply union officials confirmed travel? If its union business the union should pay for it. AFA cried foul and interference when DL offered confirmed tickets on Deltanet for FAs to protest in DC against the changes to representational election rules. Wasn't there an AA FA on YouTube calling out management for using confirmed first class space (since they care so much about the passengers their members serve)? Absolutely outrageous. So union officials smear AA management yet free ride on company aircraft?

Josh

You truly have no clue, Positive Space travel is a negotiated item and it is costed out against the CBA. If the company calls for negotiations before Section 6 is required, they should allow travel. All the officers, directors and managers fly for Company business, as the union does the same.

 

[Vortilon]

Guess you didn't see how AMFA failed at NW?

At least at US we were in bankruptcy, cant say the same about you, the TWU at AA in 2003, can you?

Why was AMFA voted out at UA?

Why hasn't AMFA been able to negotiate a new CBA at WN and just keep extending the former IBT CBA?

I've probably forgot more about what happened with AMFA at NWA then you will ever know. Spare me your weak argument on that subject.

AMFA being voted out at UA, take a poll over there - most would want to rethink that mistake.

AMFA at SWA, I'm sure a deal will be worked out that is fair as possible to all.

TWU at AA in 2003 what's your point? That's on Jim Little and his "fight like hell committee"!

TWU at AA in 2001, now that contract was courtesy of the AMFA at NWA.

 

[Overspeed]

Meaningful discussions? Gimme a break, I haven't met one guy on the floor that wouldn't love to throttle Jim Little and his fellow international parasites. Did you even read the TA? Some raise...right - at what cost? I haven't forgot what your heros at the TWU have done for us. Forget the recent TA. How did Jim Little get so badly outsmarted in 2003? Our benefits concessions our second to none - now that the pensions are all but gone! What about the chief slug Ed Kosiatek? Remember the 95 contract? That one was classic TWU. How low are you willing to go? Most of us are tired of giving up pay and benefits to preserve the TWUs headcount of dues paying workers!

As much as you want to try, you will never convince anybody that Bob Owens is to blame. I could walk through any breakroom here at DFW with AMFA authorization cards and get pretty close to 100% signed in short order. What does that say about anybody's confidence in the TWU? Bod didn't create that hatred.

As far as the BK process goes, it will end up in Sean Lane's hands. In regard to the OT question, it is my day off, and I'm at home. The amount I work did not change.

It's really doesn't matter much what card a person signs at this point. As you already know, the judge will be making the call now. Never said Bob was to blame, just noting that he hasn't been right on much of anything regarding negotiations. We are in BK, we are losing retiree medical and matching funds no matter how hard he complains about it, we will be lower paid when we come out of Chap 11 then we would have got on the TA, where is the money that is still on the table (its going in the creditors pockets, the pension as we know it is gone, and his belief that AA can't outsource because of a mechanic shortage isn't going to stop 40% outsourcing. It's not his fault, he was and is still wrong.

You won't be giving up pay, it will be taken away through the Chap 11 that Bob said was a threat.

 

[tech2101]

I think that was stated already but here we go. The TA was going to have us at number 2 in airline AMT pay

Really?

#2 in pay? What about the rest of the package?

I was going to win the lottery if only I had chosen 2 numbers differently.

 

[TWU informer]

It's really doesn't matter much what card a person signs at this point. As you already know, the judge will be making the call now. Never said Bob was to blame, just noting that he hasn't been right on much of anything regarding negotiations. We are in BK, we are losing retiree medical and matching funds no matter how hard he complains about it, we will be lower paid when we come out of Chap 11 then we would have got on the TA, where is the money that is still on the table (its going in the creditors pockets, the pension as we know it is gone, and his belief that AA can't outsource because of a mechanic shortage isn't going to stop 40% outsourcing. It's not his fault, he was and is still wrong.

You won't be giving up pay, it will be taken away through the Chap 11 that Bob said was a threat.

Of course signing cards will not stop or change the outcome of this Bankruptcy.

The point is about what do we have going forward. When a very large percentage of members have enough ill will towards the TWU to even consider signing cards, this should be a notification to the TWU that things should change. To be more specific, stop the secrecy, stop the dicatorship control of the direction of the Union, stop the waste of dues money on politics and sports tickets and use those funds to engage your members via internet, cell phones, and social media. And I dont mean the continued use of those sources to tell how it is going to be or what you have decided for the membership. Proper membership engagement requires two-way communication not one-way notification or excuses of where we are at today.

As long as the TWU refuses to hear the complaints of the large member group that is fed up with this representation, as long as the TWU refuses to change the direction of this organization, then the TWU is actually conducting a strong lack of proper representation. In other words continuation of that which weakens the support of the organization is not fair representation, not adequate representation, and will never be successful representation.

Why is it so damn hard for the TWU to just admit their mistakes while announcing plans to change the direction of the organization? Failing to do so weakens not strenghtens the Union. It is not rocket science, it is proper representation. It is not hard either, would actually be one easy transition if was actually a serious attempt, and not just another TWU Charade.

The TWU can keep pretending there is not massive discord within the membership if they choose, but doing so just leads to weaker and weaker standing, and therefore more failures.

 

[Buck]

Guess you didn't see how AMFA failed at NW?

At least at US we were in bankruptcy, cant say the same about you, the TWU at AA in 2003, can you?

Why was AMFA voted out at UA?

Why hasn't AMFA been able to negotiate a new CBA at WN and just keep extending the former IBT CBA?

I do not know why the TWU defenders continually roll on about any time period after 1983. Those who have been paying the international salaries have had nothing but reduction in their purchasing power since then. 1983, 2001, 2003 or now, it has been the same. Reversal after reversal.

 

[Overspeed]

I do not know why the TWU defenders continually roll on about any time period after 1983. Those who have been paying the international salaries have had nothing but reduction in their purchasing power since then. 1983, 2001, 2003 or now, it has been the same. Reversal after reversal.

Buck 700UW is IAM/US Airways

 

[Overspeed]

Really?

#2 in pay? What about the rest of the package?

I was going to win the lottery if only I had chosen 2 numbers differently.

TA would have given us lowest in outsourcing in the industry, an intact pension for all incumbent members, and maintain retiree medical for those over 50 with SK time funding plan for those under 50 (like WN and CO) for a few. No we did not hit the mega but we got 5 numbers.

Now we have no numbers because the vote no coalition said we need to buy a ticket later. Nothing like number 8 in pay, a frozen pension, no retire medical, and statement from Bob that if we vote no one more time we will go back to negotiations with no end in sight and 40% of our work outsourced. The damage has been done. Will we keep voting no until what? We get top pay, our pension back, retiree medical back, and all the work brought back in-house?

 

[Buck]

Buck 700UW is IAM/US Airways

Yes I realize that. There are many on here that point to 2001 as a victory for the TWU. I have been here sine 1984 and every contract has been concessionary in some form or another.

 

[lineguy43]

Yes I realize that. There are many on here that point to 2001 as a victory for the TWU. I have been here sine 1984 and every contract has been concessionary in some form or another.

Well anyone who has been paying attention would know that the claimed "victory" by the twu in 2001 was won by AMFA at NWA and not the twu or the iam. Any industrial union acheivements in that timeframe were riding the coattails of the AMFA 2001 contract at NWA.

 

[DallasConehead]

TA would have given us lowest in outsourcing in the industry, an intact pension for all incumbent members, and maintain retiree medical for those over 50 with SK time funding plan for those under 50 (like WN and CO) for a few. No we did not hit the mega but we got 5 numbers.

Now we have no numbers because the vote no coalition said we need to buy a ticket later. Nothing like number 8 in pay, a frozen pension, no retire medical, and statement from Bob that if we vote no one more time we will go back to negotiations with no end in sight and 40% of our work outsourced. The damage has been done. Will we keep voting no until what? We get top pay, our pension back, retiree medical back, and all the work brought back in-house?

Theres a dose of reality for you no vote goof balls.... Well put Overspeed....

 

[737823]

Buck 700UW is IAM/US Airways

And despite the industry lagging agreements they've produced at US Air and other carriers he still vigorously defends their leadership and negotiation tactics. Isn't this the same union that stripped its very own members of their seniority protection, started "the concessions train" at US Air in 2002 (according to Bob) and apparently didn't do a great job marketing itself to Delta employees when 70% of ACS voted no for representation, then squandered membership resources fighting the election results claiming interference.

Josh

 

[Bob Owens]

Really?

#2 in pay? What about the rest of the package?

I was going to win the lottery if only I had chosen 2 numbers differently.

Once again Overspeed is putting the company spin on the offer.

What the company did was offer to increase the premium for working nights to $1.50 an hour and the company shortened the window where the Night shift premium called MRP would apply so they could arrange schedules to that nobody actually recieved it. It would have been a paper rate only.

They also excluded GEO premiums that other carriers offered from the formula.

Effectively it gave the company a $1.50hr "cushion" before other carriers would drag wages up at AA.

So lets look at how this would have worked.

Lets say we have a mechanic working from 2059 to 0429 and his pay with everything comes out to 35.50. The paper rate would be $37.00 for comparasion.

So in other words even if $35.50 was in fact the bottom of the industry the guys at AA would not see their pay adjusted because on paper the top rate is $37, even if nobody actually got MRP. The company could still have 24 hour coverage without paying anybody the MRP.

The fact is the spread between what base AMTs would have been making and the figure used for comparasion would have been around $4/hr.

So a base AMT could actually be getting around $5.50 an hour less than lets say a base guy at UAL but according the the formula we may still be number 2 according to Overspeed, some in the International and the Company.

Historically the top rates are normally within a very narrow range, pennies, that agreement would have given the company a $1.50/hr cushion plus the average wage would have been much much lower than number two, more than likely bottom of the industry.

 

[Bob Owens]

TA would have given us lowest in outsourcing in the industry, an intact pension for all incumbent members, and maintain retiree medical for those over 50 with SK time funding plan for those under 50 (like WN and CO) for a few. No we did not hit the mega but we got 5 numbers.

Now we have no numbers because the vote no coalition said we need to buy a ticket later. Nothing like number 8 in pay, a frozen pension, no retire medical, and statement from Bob that if we vote no one more time we will go back to negotiations with no end in sight and 40% of our work outsourced. The damage has been done. Will we keep voting no until what? We get top pay, our pension back, retiree medical back, and all the work brought back in-house?

Lowest outsourcing? Well lets look at those numbers.

Currently its advertised as just under 10%, however when you factor in Taesl its just over 20%.

Now our language only considers stuff outsourced if its done by non-AA employees, even if those AA employees are overseas and not TWU members its condidered "in house". I believe we are unique in that most of our peers consider anything not done by members under the agreement to be outsourced.

So not only does all the work done for AA overseas count as insourced but all the 3P work also gets counted as insourced. In other words for every dollar AA earns doing 3P work overseas by non-TWU members they can outsource a dollars worth of our work and the percentage would stay the same, even though we lost work. They do more 3P work overseas than we do in the US.

What you also leave out is that right now we still have all the things you just listed except the concession of using sick pay to buy retiree medical. We all are still under the DB (no different than those who ratified their deals) but it will be frozen on DOS and possibly terminated before we leave BK, we all still have Prefunding and Retiree medical although its likely that we will lose that before we exit BK, no we do not have the Sk bank funded medical that was "conceptually similar " to what WN and CO had. I say conceptually similar because thats even how the company described it, you left out the fact that while WN's plan was for 11hrs to buy a month of coverage, and they give them 96 hours per year to use or bank the AA plan was for 20 hours, which they could increase after three years, and they were only going to give us 64 hours to bank a year.In other words at WN you would need to bank 1320 hours, you could bank that in less than 14 years to provide you retiree medical for the 10 years from 55 to 65, at AA, at the beginning, you would have to bank 2400 hours for the same coverage but because we would only get 8 days it would take us just under 38 years of perfect attendance to pay for it.

Overspeed, the MCT's voted yes did they not? Are they keeping their pensions? Are they keeping their retiree medical? Atr they staying number 2 in the industry and if so where were they before they ratified their deal?

You make it sound as if we had ratified our deal that we would not be in the same place we are now. The fact is that the company is demanding 20% from everyone, even the MCTs. So why are you so insistant on spreading disinformation ? Here you are throwing all your lies, which are easily revealed for what they are as you hide behind an alias, now plenty of people use aliases here, most to protect themselves from retaliation from the company, you do it to make personal attacks, so what does that make you?

 

[Overspeed]

Lowest outsourcing? Well lets look at those numbers.

Currently its advertised as just under 10%, however when you factor in Taesl its just over 20%.

Now our language only considers stuff outsourced if its done by non-AA employees, even if those AA employees are overseas and not TWU members its condidered "in house". I believe we are unique in that most of our peers consider anything not done by members under the agreement to be outsourced.

So not only does all the work done for AA overseas count as insourced but all the 3P work also gets counted as insourced. In other words for every dollar AA earns doing 3P work overseas by non-TWU members they can outsource a dollars worth of our work and the percentage would stay the same, even though we lost work. They do more 3P work overseas than we do in the US.

What you also leave out is that right now we still have all the things you just listed except the concession of using sick pay to buy retiree medical. We all are still under the DB (no different than those who ratified their deals) but it will be frozen on DOS and possibly terminated before we leave BK, we all still have Prefunding and Retiree medical although its likely that we will lose that before we exit BK, no we do not have the Sk bank funded medical that was "conceptually similar " to what WN and CO had. I say conceptually similar because thats even how the company described it, you left out the fact that while WN's plan was for 11hrs to buy a month of coverage, and they give them 96 hours per year to use or bank the AA plan was for 20 hours, which they could increase after three years, and they were only going to give us 64 hours to bank a year.In other words at WN you would need to bank 1320 hours, you could bank that in less than 14 years to provide you retiree medical for the 10 years from 55 to 65, at AA, at the beginning, you would have to bank 2400 hours for the same coverage but because we would only get 8 days it would take us just under 38 years of perfect attendance to pay for it.

Overspeed, the MCT's voted yes did they not? Are they keeping their pensions? Are they keeping their retiree medical? Atr they staying number 2 in the industry and if so where were they before they ratified their deal?

You make it sound as if we had ratified our deal that we would not be in the same place we are now. The fact is that the company is demanding 20% from everyone, even the MCTs. So why are you so insistant on spreading disinformation ? Here you are throwing all your lies, which are easily revealed for what they are as you hide behind an alias, now plenty of people use aliases here, most to protect themselves from retaliation from the company, you do it to make personal attacks, so what does that make you?

TAESL employs TWU does it not? Enough about counting TAESL as outsourced.

We work for a company that flies around the world. The amount of work done by our foreign based workers was minimal. Thanks to us going to BK, this amount of work is no longer capped by LOA. Now AA could have BC's done in CCS or EZE now. Yeah Bob, the TWU language was sooooo bad before. So glad we voted no.

Outsourced work is not counted the way you state. All labor and materials used is shown as credits in the P&L (i.e. it is backed out of our M&E costs before calculating the percentage). Revenue is added back in and counted against burden in the P&L. So 3P is not counted against us as you constantly say. You have been shown this time and again yet you must be playing airline mogul on your laptop or blogging instead of paying attention.

Pension still the same? You ate too many Peeps this morning. The TA had incumbent employees keep accrue pensionable time, freezing stops that. Man are you lost in your own lies. I know everybody sees still accruing pension time better than having it frozen. Yes the BK is changing that. Never said the retiree medical deal in the TA was better than what we had but is way better than what we will get in BK for sure.

Yes the MCTs did vote yes. The point is they are better off overall. They are keeping their rate of pay per the term sheet so they are better off than us. They are keeping their pay raise. Remember Bob, number 8 or liquidate. I would rather have had number two personally.

I am telling the truth. The 20% is from the starting point of the existing CBA. Guess what, we are working from a 2003 CBA, not a 2010 DOS CBA that was at a higher starting rate than now. I posted all your lies back and flip flops over the last 7 to 8 years. Yo never responded did you. Why? Because you constantly lie and can't keep track of your own lies. Maybe you should start a chart Bob.

Personal attacks are you and your supporters forte. You want names so you can resort to thug tactics. The words speak for themselves so when someone expresses a dissenting opinion you accuse them of hiding. Get over it Bob, your tactics failed.