TWU negotiations.........what?

[Bob Owens]

In the APA PEB the peer group for comparisons was for comparable airlines. Even though we work on the same planes, the companies provide different services and therefore different business models. It has nothing to do with the work.

That PEB was under Clinton, in the AMTRAK PEB the company tried to say that the frieght rails should be excludede but the Bush PEB includede them anyway citing that historically the contracts followed each other.

The fact is it is the work, not the business model. We sell A&P labor on heavy turbine aircraft, Does Exxon alter the price oif fuel based upon the business model or profitability of the consumer?

 

[737823]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2613758815486

any comments?

"We've got to get together!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7cB2hVCEfA

Josh

 

[Chuck Schalk]

I still say anything short of indsutry wide actions that get the attention of the entire Public and all Branches of Government is a waste of time.

Just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion

 

[Bob Owens]

Things may have changed, but initially, AA was seeking to kill the pension and the retiree medical from all groups, including those who ratified their contract. IIRC, AA was not seeking any additional paycuts or workrule changes from those two workgroups. In that way, they may be doing slightly better than the no-voters.

Wrong, you have to remember that the deal they got was "cost Neutral", they are seeking bigger work rule concessions from them to make up for the fact that they already got their Prefunding.

IMO the company backed off on the pension because the big boys didnt want their shares watered down by having to share them with the PBGC.

 

[TWU informer]

"We've got to get together!"

Josh

Well another rather emotional cheer leader on that video.

My questions

WHO - is supposed to get us together?
WHEN - are we supposed to get together?
WHAT - are we going to demand once we get together?

And were they talking about getting together in more Political Rallies, or in defiance and in the streets?

I mean these great "labor leaders" seem to know what it is going to take, but do they think we are suppose organize and fund the effort from the bottom-up?

In my opinion they should stop living in their labor leader funded plush homes and cars and begin a non-partison, no politics involved change and start a nation wide roadshow, create videos and a website that declares a change of strategy. NO PANDERING POLITICS, NO PANDERING POLITICIANS, just pure raw education of how real labor gains were made in the past while preparing for a massive march on Washinton D.C. at the end of the nationwide campaign in conjunction with a nation wide strike for those that cannot get to Washington. Prepare a video CD and have the AFL-CIO put one in every members mailbox at the start of the campaign and within a week of action day.

First mention of a Congressman or Senator showing up to campaign/lie anywhere along on this movement and I am back on the sidelines. This should a membership drive for action, no more political broken promises.

 

[FWAAA]

The fact is it is the work, not the business model. We sell A&P labor on heavy turbine aircraft, Does Exxon alter the price oif fuel based upon the business model or profitability of the consumer?

Good point - with some very minor variations, the price of jet fuel, on any given day, is the same no matter where in the world it is purchased. Nevertheless, you aren't arguing that all holders of A&P tickets be paid the same, no matter their employer or where they live, are you? That's basically the problem at AA right now - and that leads to higher pay in some parts of the country and ridiculously lower pay in other parts, like where you live. AA's current $33.28/hr (or whatever the actual number is - I used AA's number) is about 10% lower than jetBlue's top rate, and that makes no sense.

There have been a lot of news articles lately that gasoline prices are not uniform across the US. In fact, they're significantly cheaper right now in OK and TX than they are in CA or NYC (where current prices are very high). There are several reasons for that - including the transportation costs to move gasoline from the areas where it's refined to the areas where many more people live (the Northeast and the west coast). We all know that real estate prices are higher in many parts of the country that are not OK or TX. Auto insurance and real property taxes tend to be low in those two states. Lots of things tend to be cheaper in those two states.

So should every A&P holder employed by AA make the same money no matter where they live? I'd argue that the correct answer is "no," as those who like living in the low-cost areas (OK and TX) are willing to work for less money. Not because they have no self-respect or are lousy union men and women, but because even the current pay affords them a superior lifestyle in their region of the US. Of course, there's no argument that the exact same wage (paid to the NYC AMTs) affords them an inferior standard of living in NYC, where prices are very high compared to OK and TX. Same thing in BOS or CHI or MIA or PHL or WAS or SAN or SFO or other higher-cost parts of the country.

Yes, you all sell labor on heavy turbine aircraft. But as we've discussed, some of your coworkers face competition from ultra-low-cost providers. That would be your coworkers in OK and TX, many of whom perform scheduled maintenance that, because of the mobile nature of the airplanes, can be performed virtually anywhere in the world with runways and hangar space and a workforce that possesses some wrenches and manuals. For good or bad, that competition is located in places where men and women are willing to work for a mere fraction of what you're willing to accept. That's the nature of C checks and heavy C checks. Those can be performed almost anywhere in the world.

The work that AA's AMTs perform in NYC generally must be performed in NYC, so the plane can be airworthy the next morning or in 30 minutes or less or ASAP. Same story in all the other big cities. That's the nature of line maintenance. It has to done in the big cities where the airplanes are. There is no option to fly the plane to SAL or HKG or SIN to perform line maintenance. You in NYC don't really provide the same exact same service to AA as most of the guys in OK or TX.

The bottom line is that most of the AMTs in OK and TX do not provide the same service to AA that the line mechanics do. They tend to perform routine, scheduled maintenance and those on the line perform as-needed maintenance (plus the routine checks that are more economical to perform at the line stations).

So how to solve the problem? Get released, go on strike until AA raises the top pay for A&P ticket holders to $45/hr or more? I don't see that happening as long as everyone in OK and TX gets to tag along for the ride. AA ain't going to pay those in OK or TX that kind of money when AA knows that many in OK or TX will do what they do for $10/hr to $15/hr less than $45/hr. Thing is, except for WN and UPS (the outliers), every other big commercial airline's A&Ps currently make between almost $33/hr (UA) and $36.65/hr (B6) with CO close behind B6. Everyone is within an approximate 10% band. That's a smaller price variation than the domestic gasoline situation, where prices vary by almost a dollar right now depending on location. That's a much smaller variation that the disparity between pilot and flight attendant pay - where those near the top (AA) currently get more than 25% more than those near the bottom (US).

I don't know how you will solve that dilemma. I know how UA, NW and DL did it.

 

[TWU informer]

And then AA Management would reduce head count to minimum at the line, and launch rotating field trips from the overhaul stations with a living per-diem for the travelers. The overhaul rates plus travel expense will be cheaper than keeping Bob around. Then the next step will be a field trip group of one or two certificated Crew Chief AMT's and or Inspectors for RII items, with a larger group of non-licensed OSM's and the work will get done, and the certificate holder will release the aircraft back to service. This is one reason why the cost outs on the 1113c motion are too low.

Once Bob and Line price themselves so far above the Overhaul Rates, AA will have teams of Overhaul Based employees going on weekly or monthly field trips. Those employees will still live in dreaded lower cost of living but just travel to do the function that Line AMT's claim Overhaul AMT's cannot do. Or they will just reduce the restrictions to even keep line maintenance in NY and outsource those jobs to a third party.

And once the pay is so much higher for the Line AMT in NY, the overhaul AMT will have envy and will not support any effort to prevent the outsource of those jobs all together. Similar to what Line AMT's say about Overhaul now.

The answer is not to further divide this union, the answer is to quit complaining that someone else or something is your problem and stick together.

No matter who you are or where you live, there is someone that will do your job for less once you price yourself out of the market.

Even the lawn care companies here in the dreaded low cost of living area have been ran out of business by harder working lower cost hispanic owned lawn care companies as the others priced themselves right into non-exisitence. Just as the customer will gravitate towards the cheaper ticket, so will management gravitate towards lower cost regardless of how they get it.

 

[Buck]

Perhaps if the overhaul rate becomes low enough, no one will sign up to go on field trips. With 40% of those eligible being paid much less than the other 60%.

Are OSM's even eligible to go on field trips?

 

[787nightmare]

Enter "Geo pay". This is absolutely the solution.
This is LONG overdue in this industry. And should be to the tune of at least $10-15/hr difference than southern stations.
EG....JFK, BOS, ORD, LAX, SFO, SEA etc. Versus DFW, TUL, PHX, MIA(higher than most southern city's)etc.

After 23 yrs and several carriers, I've lived or been to about every corner of this nation. And it is ludicrous that there's not a substantial geo pay scale in this business.

 

[TWU informer]

Perhaps if the overhaul rate becomes low enough, no one will sign up to go on field trips. With 40% of those eligible being paid much less than the other 60%.

Are OSM's even eligible to go on field trips?

Are you serious? The lower the pay the more overtime and field trip work will be taken not refused.

Is a license required to do work at a Line Station per F.A.R.'s? Or is the Q.A.M. the only restriction.

When we are discussing and/or speculating about the future, current language is irrelevant.

I was talking about the future, not current status i.e. OSM's

 

[Bob Owens]

Good point - with some very minor variations, the price of jet fuel, on any given day, is the same no matter where in the world it is purchased. Nevertheless, you aren't arguing that all holders of A&P tickets be paid the same, no matter their employer or where they live, are you? That's basically the problem at AA right now - and that leads to higher pay in some parts of the country and ridiculously lower pay in other parts, like where you live. AA's current $33.28/hr (or whatever the actual number is - I used AA's number) is about 10% lower than jetBlue's top rate, and that makes no sense.

There have been a lot of news articles lately that gasoline prices are not uniform across the US. In fact, they're significantly cheaper right now in OK and TX than they are in CA or NYC (where current prices are very high). There are several reasons for that - including the transportation costs to move gasoline from the areas where it's refined to the areas where many more people live (the Northeast and the west coast). We all know that real estate prices are higher in many parts of the country that are not OK or TX. Auto insurance and real property taxes tend to be low in those two states. Lots of things tend to be cheaper in those two states.

So should every A&P holder employed by AA make the same money no matter where they live? I'd argue that the correct answer is "no," as those who like living in the low-cost areas (OK and TX) are willing to work for less money. Not because they have no self-respect or are lousy union men and women, but because even the current pay affords them a superior lifestyle in their region of the US. Of course, there's no argument that the exact same wage (paid to the NYC AMTs) affords them an inferior standard of living in NYC, where prices are very high compared to OK and TX. Same thing in BOS or CHI or MIA or PHL or WAS or SAN or SFO or other higher-cost parts of the country.

Yes, you all sell labor on heavy turbine aircraft. But as we've discussed, some of your coworkers face competition from ultra-low-cost providers. That would be your coworkers in OK and TX, many of whom perform scheduled maintenance that, because of the mobile nature of the airplanes, can be performed virtually anywhere in the world with runways and hangar space and a workforce that possesses some wrenches and manuals. For good or bad, that competition is located in places where men and women are willing to work for a mere fraction of what you're willing to accept. That's the nature of C checks and heavy C checks. Those can be performed almost anywhere in the world.

The work that AA's AMTs perform in NYC generally must be performed in NYC, so the plane can be airworthy the next morning or in 30 minutes or less or ASAP. Same story in all the other big cities. That's the nature of line maintenance. It has to done in the big cities where the airplanes are. There is no option to fly the plane to SAL or HKG or SIN to perform line maintenance. You in NYC don't really provide the same exact same service to AA as most of the guys in OK or TX.

The bottom line is that most of the AMTs in OK and TX do not provide the same service to AA that the line mechanics do. They tend to perform routine, scheduled maintenance and those on the line perform as-needed maintenance (plus the routine checks that are more economical to perform at the line stations).

So how to solve the problem? Get released, go on strike until AA raises the top pay for A&P ticket holders to $45/hr or more? I don't see that happening as long as everyone in OK and TX gets to tag along for the ride. AA ain't going to pay those in OK or TX that kind of money when AA knows that many in OK or TX will do what they do for $10/hr to $15/hr less than $45/hr. Thing is, except for WN and UPS (the outliers), every other big commercial airline's A&Ps currently make between almost $33/hr (UA) and $36.65/hr (B6) with CO close behind B6. Everyone is within an approximate 10% band. That's a smaller price variation than the domestic gasoline situation, where prices vary by almost a dollar right now depending on location. That's a much smaller variation that the disparity between pilot and flight attendant pay - where those near the top (AA) currently get more than 25% more than those near the bottom (US).

I don't know how you will solve that dilemma. I know how UA, NW and DL did it.

Geo pay was proposed by the Union in negotiations, the company rejected it. Said they had zero interest in it, maybe its because all the company negotiators live in either Texas or Oklahoma.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Geo pay was proposed by the Union in negotiations, the company rejected it. Said they had zero interest in it, maybe its because all the company negotiators live in either Texas or Oklahoma.

Back when we voted on the 2010 TA I voted"Yes" giving you a $2.00 an hour raise and you rejected it...

You had it and blew it with your "Vote NO" campaign.... :blink:

 

[1AA]

Heard today that a proposal will be coming our way to vote on. Some local presidents and others expressed discontent on the proposal which is way too concessionary. But its coming our way because Mr. Little said so and thats that.

Sounds to me that if for some reason we do vote on a proposal and it gets voted down Little will sign off on it anyway.

 

[Buck]

Are you serious? The lower the pay the more overtime and field trip work will be taken not refused.

Is a license required to do work at a Line Station per F.A.R.'s? Or is the Q.A.M. the only restriction.

When we are discussing and/or speculating about the future, current language is irrelevant.

I was talking about the future, not current status i.e. OSM's

I agree, the more overtime will be worked. Field trips on the other are being refused today because the company makes the mechanic pay his way and then reimburses them, but only at the rate the company feels is adequate.

If a trip is in the logbook, I believe you have to be licensed. The question is why doesn't the mechanic at the station perform the work?

The QAM which in the future will be fully under the company's control is going to go a long way toward the OSM classification.

Maybe in the future, an OSM earning $10 less an hr can go on a field trip especially if he has his license.

I would like to know if the AMT's that do not work directly on the aircraft, will be subject to the OSM ratio?

 

[Bob Owens]

Are you serious? The lower the pay the more overtime and field trip work will be taken not refused.

Is a license required to do work at a Line Station per F.A.R.'s? Or is the Q.A.M. the only restriction.

When we are discussing and/or speculating about the future, current language is irrelevant.

I was talking about the future, not current status i.e. OSM's

A lot of guys in NY are not on the FT list because they have second jobs. Since we only get 1.5x there isnt as much opportunity to make much money anymore so why screw up a second job to bail out the company? While an OSM would be better off financially than a NY AMT my guess is that second jobs among OSMs will become more common, assuming jobs are available.