TWU negotiations.........what?

[Buck]

YOU mean the same money aa took after 9/11 The same money aa took from Ft Worth to build AFW, The same money tulsa gives to keep aa,. the same money from tax breaks to send maintenance overseas
WOW I thought that was what UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE was for. TAX PAYING AMERICANS THAT GET KICKED OUT OF THEIR G/D JOBS .

What is the difference between the 99 weeks and the 26 weeks of the past?

 

[Mr Red]

we are the policeman of the world that holds our best interests, such as....

middle east...oil

europe....bonds and credit default swaps

we are at war with an unknown enemy....one that doesn't wear a uniform....and, one that bankrupted this country. There are lots of contractors that have made billions to protect the oil. yet, you and I pay $5/gal for gas.

GASOLINE happens to be our number 1 export now !

 

[strikeforce]

What is the difference between the 99 weeks and the 26 weeks of the past?

here's my take on the difference:

it took about 26 weeks to find a job back in the 70's and 80's because the U.S. had manufacturing jobs.

today, 99 weeks and then some to find a service job. hot selling apple ipods, ipads & smartphones are made overseas. Cars made overseas, airplanes maintained overseas, call centers overseas.....and so on, and so on!

and, the middle-class (luckily employed, but underpaid ) taxpayer is stuck paying the unemployment bill.

 

[Buck]

here's my take on the difference:

it took about 26 weeks to find a job back in the 70's and 80's because the U.S. had manufacturing jobs.

today, 99 weeks and then some to find a service job. hot selling apple ipods, ipads & smartphones are made overseas. Cars made overseas, airplanes maintained overseas, call centers overseas.....and so on, and so on!

and, the middle-class (luckily employed, but underpaid ) taxpayer is stuck paying the unemployment bill.

It is to bad that this is not this countries economic forum. If it was I would suggest a change in the way we are taxed. But I have deviated almost as long as WT posts, back to topic.

 

[eolesen]

What is the difference between the 99 weeks and the 26 weeks of the past?

It takes 4x as many taxpayers to fund it?...

Fact is that the 99 weeks of unemployment is killing state budgets, since they fund it and only get partial reimbursement from the Feds.

NY, IL, MI, PA, and CA have had to borrow money to cover unemployment over the past couple years, and those states are also amongst the most insolvent due to corruption, pension obligations for public workers, and/or continually shrinking tax bases as they lose more and more manufacturing/working class jobs to states with lower tax burdens....

The Peoples Republic of Illinois and Cook Countistan are a perfect example of what's wrong with the system... Maybe they should consider relocation benefits to states with jobs instead of paying people to sit home & watch Oprah...

 

[Bob Owens]

we are at war with an unknown enemy....one that doesn't wear a uniform....and, one that bankrupted this country.

Sure they do, either suits and ties or Black robes.

 

[Bob Owens]

I agree with your arguements, but you will not convince the sheep to strike without some face of big labor standing side-by-side on the picket line. Jim Little needs to call the strike, pick up a sign, and start walking at Centrepork, and LEAD the sheep down a destructive path. He will not like the scene, put down the sign, and walk right into Centrpork and help AA change the laws so he doesn't have to look like fool to his constituents on capital hill.
In this country, when you go on strike.....you alone go on strike, and there are some other A&P, maybe from TIMCO, waiting to take your job. In Europe, when someone goes on strike, they shutdown the country....there are no scabs, therefore, big business has no alternative but to negotiate. When you're able to shutdown the airline industry by going on strike, let me know I'll be right there with you. If workers know they risk having some other idiot mechanic taking their job by striking, they will not strike. The landscape changed when NWA replaced the striking AMFA mechanics with scabs. Big Labor screwed the rest of the A&P mechanics by sitting on their arse and watching our UNION brothers get hosed. If AMFA would have had support from Labor, and been able to shutdown NWA, most would be right there with you calling a strike......Labor contributed to our demise by doing nothing to help the AMFA mechanics. They did nothing to challenge BK vs. RLA, and they've done NOTHING to change the RLA to make it more fair and equal for the workers. You really need to blame Labor for doing NOTHING! The sheep are stupid for keeping the TWU, but we're not that stupid to realize the cards are stacked against us.

When NWA struck there was a huge surpluss of mechanics, now there isnt. (one of the reasons I was so pissed that the International pushed signing off on a LOA eliminating the experience requirement for line maintenance-Gilboy and I were on the same page for that). Time stands still for no man. Half the A&P schools in the country have closed since 9-11. As old people leave there are not enough coming in to replace them. Look at the OT across the system, across the industry. While we typically see OT increase as we go into negotiations, one to make the troops happy and two so the company can lock in concessions and maximize savings that current workers are usually willing to pass on to new hires(example was in our TA New Hires would go to a 401K and not get retiree medical).

Most guys at places like TIMCO are not going to quit, move their families to places like New York to scab, they are making around $28 an hour and can live better in the Carolinas at that wage than they could at the Max rate in New York or Chicago.

As far as Union leadership I agree that their salaries make them too comfortable to risk it on us, sure they will work hard within the system to try and get some laws changed but they will never take the lead and have us do anything that puts them at risk, the only way you get leaders like that is if the members elect them directly. They rationaize their behavior by faulting the members themselves, they dont call the members sheep because sheep are herd animals and easily lead, then the blame would be theirs, they call the members cats, independant animals that do thier own thing, they will say that trying to get the members to do something is "Like herding cats". They will cite low attendance at meetings and low turnouts at demonstrations as justification for their position. Sure there is some truth in it but the duty of leaders is to find a way to get buy in from the people they claim they lead. This situation allows leaders to justify bringing back crappy deals because they can claim that if they lead the members in a fight that they would find themselves alone, the crappy contracts make the members lose faith in the leaders and the blame goes round and round. I feel that ultimately its the leaders job to take the risk and assume the members will be willing to fight for themselves, the fact is that this Union has never given the members the opportunity to fail, they have always gone on the assumption they would.

As far as needing 200million people to rise up for change if that was the case there would never be a Revolution anywhere. It simply doesnt happen, what happens is a huge majority become disalusioned but a minority rise up. No Revolution, no strike, no job action has ever had 100% buy in, would be nice, but it isnt needed to get results. What is needed is to make keeping the status quo (or their demands) more costly than meeting the needs of those participating in the Rebellion, strike, Job action etc.

 

[strikeforce]

When NWA struck there was a huge surpluss of mechanics, now there isnt. (one of the reasons I was so pissed that the International pushed signing off on a LOA eliminating the experience requirement for line maintenance-Gilboy and I were on the same page for that). Time stands still for no man. Half the A&P schools in the country have closed since 9-11. As old people leave there are not enough coming in to replace them. Look at the OT across the system, across the industry. While we typically see OT increase as we go into negotiations, one to make the troops happy and two so the company can lock in concessions and maximize savings that current workers are usually willing to pass on to new hires(example was in our TA New Hires would go to a 401K and not get retiree medical).

Most guys at places like TIMCO are not going to quit, move their families to places like New York to scab, they are making around $28 an hour and can live better in the Carolinas at that wage than they could at the Max rate in New York or Chicago.

As far as Union leadership I agree that their salaries make them too comfortable to risk it on us, sure they will work hard within the system to try and get some laws changed but they will never take the lead and have us do anything that puts them at risk, the only way you get leaders like that is if the members elect them directly. They rationaize their behavior by faulting the members themselves, they dont call the members sheep because sheep are herd animals and easily lead, then the blame would be theirs, they call the members cats, independant animals that do thier own thing, they will say that trying to get the members to do something is "Like herding cats". They will cite low attendance at meetings and low turnouts at demonstrations as justification for their position. Sure there is some truth in it but the duty of leaders is to find a way to get buy in from the people they claim they lead. This situation allows leaders to justify bringing back crappy deals because they can claim that if they lead the members in a fight that they would find themselves alone, the crappy contracts make the members lose faith in the leaders and the blame goes round and round. I feel that ultimately its the leaders job to take the risk and assume the members will be willing to fight for themselves, the fact is that this Union has never given the members the opportunity to fail, they have always gone on the assumption they would.

As far as needing 200million people to rise up for change if that was the case there would never be a Revolution anywhere. It simply doesnt happen, what happens is a huge majority become disalusioned but a minority rise up. No Revolution, no strike, no job action has ever had 100% buy in, would be nice, but it isnt needed to get results. What is needed is to make keeping the status quo (or their demands) more costly than meeting the needs of those participating in the Rebellion, strike, Job action etc.

so, as mechanics, our only immediate solution to our problems is to replace the TWU! The structure of the organization will not change. the members faith in the union will only get worse, and we'll continue to get crappy deals in the future.

the members have bought into the fact that having a job, no matter what it pays, is more important than preserving the profession. The TWU has done a great job at showing the membership that they have the power to save jobs, but at what cost to the profession? I'm absolutely sure AA will not layoff 4300 AMT's come next week....the union will look great when those numbers shrink by 1K or 2K. Little will look like a hero to the people that won't lose their job. This is how the TWU saves face with membership.

 

[TWU informer]

When NWA struck there was a huge surpluss of mechanics, now there isnt. (one of the reasons I was so pissed that the International pushed signing off on a LOA eliminating the experience requirement for line maintenance-Gilboy and I were on the same page for that). Time stands still for no man. Half the A&P schools in the country have closed since 9-11. As old people leave there are not enough coming in to replace them. Look at the OT across the system, across the industry. While we typically see OT increase as we go into negotiations, one to make the troops happy and two so the company can lock in concessions and maximize savings that current workers are usually willing to pass on to new hires(example was in our TA New Hires would go to a 401K and not get retiree medical).

Most guys at places like TIMCO are not going to quit, move their families to places like New York to scab, they are making around $28 an hour and can live better in the Carolinas at that wage than they could at the Max rate in New York or Chicago.

As far as Union leadership I agree that their salaries make them too comfortable to risk it on us, sure they will work hard within the system to try and get some laws changed but they will never take the lead and have us do anything that puts them at risk, the only way you get leaders like that is if the members elect them directly. They rationaize their behavior by faulting the members themselves, they dont call the members sheep because sheep are herd animals and easily lead, then the blame would be theirs, they call the members cats, independant animals that do thier own thing, they will say that trying to get the members to do something is "Like herding cats". They will cite low attendance at meetings and low turnouts at demonstrations as justification for their position. Sure there is some truth in it but the duty of leaders is to find a way to get buy in from the people they claim they lead. This situation allows leaders to justify bringing back crappy deals because they can claim that if they lead the members in a fight that they would find themselves alone, the crappy contracts make the members lose faith in the leaders and the blame goes round and round. I feel that ultimately its the leaders job to take the risk and assume the members will be willing to fight for themselves, the fact is that this Union has never given the members the opportunity to fail, they have always gone on the assumption they would.

As far as needing 200million people to rise up for change if that was the case there would never be a Revolution anywhere. It simply doesnt happen, what happens is a huge majority become disalusioned but a minority rise up. No Revolution, no strike, no job action has ever had 100% buy in, would be nice, but it isnt needed to get results. What is needed is to make keeping the status quo (or their demands) more costly than meeting the needs of those participating in the Rebellion, strike, Job action etc.

What is the plan? Does anyone have a plan?
Pissing and moaning about what is wrong is preaching to those that already know what you mean.
Explaining your feelings is getting us nowhere fast! Your advocating with a video has lead us here, now what shall we do?

 

[strikeforce]

What is the plan? Does anyone have a plan.
Pissing and moaning about what is wrong is preaching to those that already know what you mean.
Explaining your feelings is getting us nowhere fast!

when a company is absolutely determined to use the courts to shread the CBA, what plan could you possibly have outside of "strike"??

the other day I received a text from a mechanic in TUL.......it read something to the effect " TWU close to having a 4 year deal. 1200 to 1600 going to the street, but company still wants $210M in savings". AA has already indicated that in order to achieve $210M in savings it requires the closing of AFW, 2100 amts gone in TUL, and approx. 450 amts gone on the line. Now, the TWU is telling me that they somehow saved 2700 amt jobs. That's a lot of jobs. So, what is the union giving up to save those jobs??? one can only imagine!

any truth to this text, Bob Owens?

 

[Overspeed]

When NWA struck there was a huge surpluss of mechanics, now there isnt. (one of the reasons I was so pissed that the International pushed signing off on a LOA eliminating the experience requirement for line maintenance-Gilboy and I were on the same page for that). Time stands still for no man. Half the A&P schools in the country have closed since 9-11. As old people leave there are not enough coming in to replace them. Look at the OT across the system, across the industry. While we typically see OT increase as we go into negotiations, one to make the troops happy and two so the company can lock in concessions and maximize savings that current workers are usually willing to pass on to new hires(example was in our TA New Hires would go to a 401K and not get retiree medical).

Most guys at places like TIMCO are not going to quit, move their families to places like New York to scab, they are making around $28 an hour and can live better in the Carolinas at that wage than they could at the Max rate in New York or Chicago.

As far as Union leadership I agree that their salaries make them too comfortable to risk it on us, sure they will work hard within the system to try and get some laws changed but they will never take the lead and have us do anything that puts them at risk, the only way you get leaders like that is if the members elect them directly. They rationaize their behavior by faulting the members themselves, they dont call the members sheep because sheep are herd animals and easily lead, then the blame would be theirs, they call the members cats, independant animals that do thier own thing, they will say that trying to get the members to do something is "Like herding cats". They will cite low attendance at meetings and low turnouts at demonstrations as justification for their position. Sure there is some truth in it but the duty of leaders is to find a way to get buy in from the people they claim they lead. This situation allows leaders to justify bringing back crappy deals because they can claim that if they lead the members in a fight that they would find themselves alone, the crappy contracts make the members lose faith in the leaders and the blame goes round and round. I feel that ultimately its the leaders job to take the risk and assume the members will be willing to fight for themselves, the fact is that this Union has never given the members the opportunity to fail, they have always gone on the assumption they would.

As far as needing 200million people to rise up for change if that was the case there would never be a Revolution anywhere. It simply doesnt happen, what happens is a huge majority become disalusioned but a minority rise up. No Revolution, no strike, no job action has ever had 100% buy in, would be nice, but it isnt needed to get results. What is needed is to make keeping the status quo (or their demands) more costly than meeting the needs of those participating in the Rebellion, strike, Job action etc.

Thank you professor for that interesting but inaccurate lecture on How Bob See's the World.

You are ignoring the fact the FAR's dictate the minimum requirements for working on aircraft. All the applicants need are an A&P and a 40 hour course regardless of what you think. AA under the "ask" will move to have the judge allow them to outsource up 40% of all maintenance spend including on the line. Didn't they "ask" to outsource the line Bob? They could offload the JFK work down to a gas and go and outsource many of the checks to a third party station somewhere low cost couldn't they under that new language. Again, you have been outmaneuvered before you even thought of it. So some may move but others may not have too. You would know this if you actually read and understood the term sheet instead of just complained about it.

It's not the members fault, it's the leaders and you are one of them. You write on blog about your strategies, manifestos, and break with the organization. You undermine the ability to have any kind of solidarity. If you can't work within the framework to change or make the existing one better than you should leave and advocate for another. Instead you fence ride and complain.

Never 100%, you have a group that is angry but not enough to risk their jobs and you are talking just one airline. The other guys would love to see your burn it down approach work. The competitors would soak up the pieces and the other union AMTs would see new employees get added to the seniority lists AFTER their own people get recalled. If that happens, we will be all going to Disneyland...for a job.

 

[strikeforce]

Thank you professor for that interesting but inaccurate lecture on How Bob See's the World.

You are ignoring the fact the FAR's dictate the minimum requirements for working on aircraft. All the applicants need our an A&P and a 40 hour course regardless of what you think. AA under the "ask" will move to have the judge allow them to outsource up 40% of all maintenance spend including on the line. Didn't they "ask" to outsource the line Bob? They could offload the JFK work down to a gas and go and outsource many of the checks to a third party station somewhere low cost couldn't they under that new language. Again, you have been outmaneuvered before you even thought of it. So some may move but others may not have too. You would know this if you actually read and understood the term sheet instead of just complained about it.

It's not the members fault, it's the leaders and you are one of them. You write on blog about your strategies, manifestos, and break with the organization. You undermine the ability to have any kind of solidarity. If you can't work within the framework to change or make the existing one better than you should leave and advocate for another. Instead you fence ride and complain.

Never 100%, you have a group that is angry but not enough to risk their jobs and you are talking just one airline. The other guys would love to see your burn it down approach work. The competitors would soak up the pieces and the other union AMTs would see new employees get added to the seniority lists AFTER their own people get recalled. If that happens, we will be all going to Disneyland...for a job.

I don't recall which topic contained one of my posts where I said, "let the company outsource whatever they want, but when the MRO can't figure out on how to fix it and the company needs a field trip......the membership should give management the bird and let the plane sit". That's what I would convey and make perfectly clear across the table. The tech crew chiefs that went to greensboro and helped TIMCO with our 757 should be thrown out of the union.

The company has indicated outsourcing the "B checks" on the line. Good! But, don't expect ORD or any other station to bail you out when AAR has problems fixing something. The local presidents should make that perfectly clear to management.

There have been recent posts indicating that UA, DL, WN, and others are bringing more work in-house. There can only be one reason why that's happening.....MRO don't know the airplanes as good as in-house mechanics.

AA wants to eliminate avionics....have at it!
AA wants to outsource OH......have at it!
AA wants to outsource B checks....great!

AA will learn the hard way that MRO's, while being more competitive and saving the airline money initially, will be more costly in the long term. When AA closed MSP and DTW......Local563 instructed the mechanics NOT to go on field trips.....and WE obliged, but were undercut by other stations. Same goes for not taking OT, only to find out other stations were taking unlimited OT. WE ARE THE PROBLEM.....and AA uses our internal failures to their advantage. WE don't have to strike! WE NEED TO STICK TOGETHER!

 

[Overspeed]

when a company is absolutely determined to use the courts to shread the CBA, what plan could you possibly have outside of "strike"??

the other day I received a text from a mechanic in TUL.......it read something to the effect " TWU close to having a 4 year deal. 1200 to 1600 going to the street, but company still wants $210M in savings". AA has already indicated that in order to achieve $210M in savings it requires the closing of AFW, 2100 amts gone in TUL, and approx. 450 amts gone on the line. Now, the TWU is telling me that they somehow saved 2700 amt jobs. That's a lot of jobs. So, what is the union giving up to save those jobs??? one can only imagine!

any truth to this text, Bob Owens?

He was too busy riding the Dumbo Flying Elephants. How would he know?

 

[cf6mech]

I don't recall which topic contained one of my posts where I said, "let the company outsource whatever they want, but when the MRO can't figure out on how to fix it and the company needs a field trip......the membership should give management the bird and let the plane sit". That's what I would convey and make perfectly clear across the table. The tech crew chiefs that went to greensboro and helped TIMCO with our 757 should be thrown out of the union.

The company has indicated outsourcing the "B checks" on the line. Good! But, don't expect ORD or any other station to bail you out when AAR has problems fixing something. The local presidents should make that perfectly clear to management.

There have been recent posts indicating that UA, DL, WN, and others are bringing more work in-house. There can only be one reason why that's happening.....MRO don't know the airplanes as good as in-house mechanics.

AA wants to eliminate avionics....have at it!
AA wants to outsource OH......have at it!
AA wants to outsource B checks....great!

AA will learn the hard way that MRO's, while being more competitive and saving the airline money initially, will be more costly in the long term. When AA closed MSP and DTW......Local563 instructed the mechanics NOT to go on field trips.....and WE obliged, but were undercut by other stations. Same goes for not taking OT, only to find out other stations were taking unlimited OT. WE ARE THE PROBLEM.....and AA uses our internal failures to their advantage. WE don't have to strike! WE NEED TO STICK TOGETHER!

BINGO ! Give this man a cigar !......weak non accountable pro co. unions provide weak non-accountable pro co. representation. There are to many of us scared of our own shadows and afraid to make a stand.....when will enough be enough?......" OH but I need to provide for ME and mine"......this self serving attitude and selfishness is going to destroy our proffesion.....its a disgrace!

 

[Buck]

Ok where do you draw the line. Insubordination or having the union walk if the Tech C/C refuses and gets walked out. Please tell me the union is going to back someone who pays them for representation.