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TWU negotiations.........what?

We are all free to walk across the ramp and find new employment.
This is what I will do when the time comes.
But I will find and secure employment first ,before I go.

"what you are asking is unreasonable and enough is enough, if you need this to stay in business then perhaps you should not be in business"?

So that we are clear,are you saying that we should wildcat and put them out of business?
How exactly would we tell them they should not be in business?

You have to realize here I am not disagreeing with you on the analysis of the situation, I just fail to see the logic in the path you are proposing.


Define secure employment. Do you have it now?

The company is claiming that everything that is in the ask is necessary in order for them to reorganize, this is not supposed to be regular pattern bargaining, this should no be a Wish List. Read 1113, it states that the modifications in the ASK must be "necessary to permit the reorganization of the debtor" and "assurs that all creditors and all affected parties are treated fairly and equitably".

AA is claiming that they need for us to accept a wage that is way below industry average in order to reorganize, not only is it below industry average its below industry bottom, they are claiming that we must also accept inferior benefits as well, in other words they are saying that we must subsidize their inefficiencies by agreeing to sell our product way below market rates. We are already at the bottom and they say that in order for them to successfully reorganize we have to go even lower, 20% lower. They claim that this is fair and equitable beacuse they pegged everyone at 20% but fail to acknowledge that we have gone four years without any pay increases while their Non-union workers have recieved at least two pay increases in that time and I dont believe any of them are at the bottom of the industry.

The ASK also includes many things for which the company placed ZERO value on, if it has no economic value then its not needed. Other changes in workrules that they seek are unprecidented in the industy.

Now before Overspeed goes off on how much OH we do in house keep in mind that under the ask we would outsource more than United and have fewer mechanics in both OH and the line per airplane than UAL does. AA's ASK is saying they need to outsource even more than UAL and pay us much much less than UAL in order to survive.

AA has taken the position that they need a 20% cost reduction from 2011 levels despite the fact that even without any changes they will achieve a large percentage of that as older aircraft are retired. They pumped up the numbers in 2011 by adding hundreds of heads, drastically increasing the workload paying record amounts of Overtime and outsourcing on top of that, took that pumped up number and said "we need to chop off 20%". In reality they will see much more than a 20% cost reduction from maintenance just like in 2003 when the got more than 25%.

AA is saying to the court that they need all this or they will not be able to successfully reorganize, the Judge will grant this on the basis that they give the companies whatever they want, Bankruptcy court is a business and if you want more business you give the customer(debtors) what they want. He will spin it that the workers would be better off if the company reorganized than if the company liquidated. For those us us who disagree he will say "you can quit", in other words acknowledging his bias against workers rights to collectively bargain. As a unionized mechanic I feel that over the term proposed we would be better off collectively, by 2018 to see the company liquidate than accept what they say is necessary to survive. AAs survival under these terms would put downward pressure on wages across the industry and drive other potentail employers (customers for our skillsets) into bankruptcy so seek similar labor cost advantages, the vicious cycle would continue. We gave 25% in 2003, Industry leading concessions that we still live under, now they are saying they need more concessions on top of that, our peers gave less than what AA is asking for and their employers are showing profits while AA is not, why should we agree that giving more than anyone else, once again, will have a different result?

So, if AA should get our contract abrogated I'm saying that we should engage in what every other unionized worker who has his/her contract abrogated can legally do, engage in self help, even though for Airline workers, and Airline workers alone, this would be considered illegal by the courts. I say I will not sit at the back of the bus simply because I work for an airline, if the courts will not grant us equality then we must demand it through civil disobedience, screw the courts, let them lock me up for doing what every other unionized worker can do if they abrogate our contract.

The courts have put us in an extremely unfair situation. They claim that despite the fact that we are under the RLA, our contracts can be abrogated (actually annulled) just like any contract under the NLRA, yet they claim that we can not strike like every other worker whose contract is abrogated because the public is dependant on the services we provide, our peers in the Railroad industry have the same limitations on self help as we do, for the same reason, however our peers in the railroad industry have protections in Bankruptcy that we do not have for no reason at all other than they work for a railroad and we work for an Airline. Its discrimation, plain and simple. It would be no different than saying Jews cant strike but Christians can. Sure the industry we chose was our choice but so is our faith. I still have yet to hear a legal rationale for this, FWAAA, care to chime in yet?
 
Maybe it's time I swallow my pride and "restructure". Seems to be OK the right thing to do for corporate America. My family is my corporation and for the them to succeed I must start slashing. I think I will start with the "unsecured creditors". <_<
Unfortnately you cant do that, legal persons who are human can not be trusted to file for C-11 without proving they cant live up to their commitments because the courts assume that human persons have no self esteem or ethics and dont care about the stigma attached to not living up to their committments, they assume people will abuse the system so you would have to prove that you are indeed unable to live up to those committments in order to get out of them, the courts however do feel that legal persons who are corporations have more pride and ethics than people do, that corporations would not risk the social stigma of Bankruptcy even if it was profitable to do so, so there is no means test for corporations to file for C-11. Look at AA they have $24 billion a year in income, $4 billion in the bank and the largest order for new aircraft in history and the courts are entertaining them. The courts assume that businesses will not abuse the system so they get special treament and consideration.

Its like in animal farm, "some persons are more equal than others".
 
I think someone is smoking crack if he thinks C7 is the best option. Its a fools errand to shoot and kill the cow that provides the milk. The NO Contingent led by BO already cost me at least 17k and counting. And all you guys that speculate they would have filed anyway? Well how about I speculate they wouldn’t have. In which case my pension would still be accruing. How about the quintessential TWU mantra, "dude if you don't like it, go elsewhere" quit trying to "save the profession", me and my family are OK without your help!!! Call me a stooge if you want but at least I’m not an idiot.
If we would have only volutarily took it in the REAR again, The F/As clean the A/C. and service lavs ,and Pilots agree to turbo prop wages everything would be ok.Pure Fantasy
 
You did not lose 17K, it was only a promise that never would have came to be..........bankruptcy was their destiny, no other way to break all contracts.
You are absolutely correct, the $17000 was only a promise. Just like the B-Scale and all of the reductive pay scales the TWU has brought before the membership.
 
Whats taking place is really just as much a civil rights issue as it is an economic issue. Crony Capitalism keeps nipping away at our rights, one bill, one court decision at a time. Some come here and say we should just take it, that we should be glad we have a job, well the fact is you may have a job but you lost the job you once had, and you will lose the one you have now, even though you may still get paid by the same employer and do the same tasks. We had jobs that paid well, provided us with security, paid holidays, vacation, sick time, benefits a pension and Retiree medical. Bit by bit its all being taken away. We are being subjected to disadvantageous rules that only apply to airline workers. Its discrimitory and unjustified and the longer we tolerate it the worse things will get for us . Will it be painless? No. Are we guarnateed success? No but I'm sure there were African Americans in 1955 who felt that sitting in the back of the bus wasnt all that bad, better than having to walk. People with a mindset like Overspeed, who would say "Boycott the bus? How am I getting to work, I got bills to pay" or "Look how bad black people have it in Africa, at least we aint starving" that fighting was useless and that those who did fight would be worse off than just accepting what their betters dictated. We need to stop this now, its gone on too long and we have lost too much. We also need to convince our peers at other carriers that this is their fight as well, because if we lower the bar again its only a matter of time before their employer jumps into C-11 again to get the same thing from them. If we are to suffer the restrictions of the RLA then we must enjoy the protections, we should demand that all workers subject to the RLA are included in sect 1167. We should threaten industrwide actions to raise public awareness to our demand of equal treatment under the law.

In 1983 Lorenzo took a company that was not broke into BK for the sole purpose of busting labor contracts, he did, they struck, which is what he wanted so the courts allowed it, labor reacted and they inserted 1113. Over the years the courts have gradually ignored most of the content, saying "well they really dont have to prove they need it", They really dont have to be fair, the contract really doesnt have to be onerous, they just have to follow the steps. In 2005 NWA went into C-11 with over $1billion in cash to get their labor contracts abrogated, the court complied with their customers request, then to make things even worse another court declared, in order to get around the status quo provisions of the RLA, that airline contracts arent really abrogated they are annulled, they never existed, so airline workers could no longer strike upon unilateral changes in pay and or working conditions in BK because there is no status quo in BK. In 2011 American Airlines took a company with $24 billion in annual revenue, $4 billion in cash and the largest order for aircraft in history in C-11, will we just let this keep getting worse and worse? When will we say "Enough is Enough"? I can tolerate the fact that if we chose this profession that some of our rights are compromised, if there is justification for it, such as random drug and alchohol testing. But the NWA vs AFA decision has gone way too far. It strips us of the right to collectively defend our interests. By making what is legal for everyone else not legal for us they have left us no option other than to go illegal or be AAnnihilated.
 
If we would have only volutarily took it in the REAR again, The F/As clean the A/C. and service lavs ,and Pilots agree to turbo prop wages everything would be ok.Pure Fantasy
What do the Southwest employees do to make themselves successful?
 
You did not lose 17K, it was only a promise that never would have came to be..........bankruptcy was their destiny, no other way to break all contracts.

I dont know about that Chuck.

I figure your crystal ball is better than mine but I went ahead and checked mine again this morning.

Mine speculates that had we ratiifed our T/A, the other work groups would have quickly followed and I would have had the money.

Point is, you have no idea if your claim is true or not. Nothing more than a cop out after the facts clearly show we had a better chance at that $17K than we had a chance at an industry leading contract or getting a release, or even executing a job action if release was granted. Advocating going into a fight with this union, this economy, or this fractured membership was and still is a stupid thing to do! Industry Wide action Yes. Us with the TWU, forget it.
 
Whats taking place is really just as much a civil rights issue as it is an economic issue. Crony Capitalism keeps nipping away at our rights, one bill, one court decision at a time. Some come here and say we should just take it, that we should be glad we have a job, well the fact is you may have a job but you lost the job you once had, and you will lose the one you have now, even though you may still get paid by the same employer and do the same tasks. We had jobs that paid well, provided us with security, paid holidays, vacation, sick time, benefits a pension and Retiree medical. Bit by bit its all being taken away. We are being subjected to disadvantageous rules that only apply to airline workers. Its discrimitory and unjustified and the longer we tolerate it the worse things will get for us . Will it be painless? No. Are we guarnateed success? No but I'm sure there were African Americans in 1955 who felt that sitting in the back of the bus wasnt all that bad, better than having to walk. People with a mindset like Overspeed, who would say "Boycott the bus? How am I getting to work, I got bills to pay" or "Look how bad black people have it in Africa, at least we aint starving" that fighting was useless and that those who did fight would be worse off than just accepting what their betters dictated. We need to stop this now, its gone on too long and we have lost too much. We also need to convince our peers at other carriers that this is their fight as well, because if we lower the bar again its only a matter of time before their employer jumps into C-11 again to get the same thing from them. If we are to suffer the restrictions of the RLA then we must enjoy the protections, we should demand that all workers subject to the RLA are included in sect 1167. We should threaten industrwide actions to raise public awareness to our demand of equal treatment under the law.

In 1983 Lorenzo took a company that was not broke into BK for the sole purpose of busting labor contracts, he did, they struck, which is what he wanted so the courts allowed it, labor reacted and they inserted 1113. Over the years the courts have gradually ignored most of the content, saying "well they really dont have to prove they need it", They really dont have to be fair, the contract really doesnt have to be onerous, they just have to follow the steps. In 2005 NWA went into C-11 with over $1billion in cash to get their labor contracts abrogated, the court complied with their customers request, then to make things even worse another court declared, in order to get around the status quo provisions of the RLA, that airline contracts arent really abrogated they are annulled, they never existed, so airline workers could no longer strike upon unilateral changes in pay and or working conditions in BK because there is no status quo in BK. In 2011 American Airlines took a company with $24 billion in annual revenue, $4 billion in cash and the largest order for aircraft in history in C-11, will we just let this keep getting worse and worse? When will we say "Enough is Enough"? I can tolerate the fact that if we chose this profession that some of our rights are compromised, if there is justification for it, such as random drug and alchohol testing. But the NWA vs AFA decision has gone way too far. It strips us of the right to collectively defend our interests. By making what is legal for everyone else not legal for us they have left us no option other than to go illegal or be AAnnihilated.
Bob, we all belong to organizations that were paid quite handsomely to make sure those laws were fair and equal. Instead labor keeps stealing our money and allows companies like AA to write their own laws. The disadvantages of the RLA towards labor just didn't happen overnight. it's been compounding over several decades, and with each strike, airlines lobby congress to make the laws that much tougher. Labor winked when airlines lobbied congress to change the RLA because big labor talks tough, but they too don't like strikes. It's too costly and labor has also figured out that it's a lose-lose proposition.
This fight is way above our heads, striking only hurts the middle-class worker....businesses go away and open up a different name. You're right, AA will cease today and become joe schmo airline tomorrow. Bob, you alone are fighting corporate america, big labor is sitting right with the enemy figuring out how to prevent rebellions and strikes. Do you think Jim Little will place his $250K salary at risk because Bob Owens wants to strike???
I agree with your arguements, but you will not convince the sheep to strike without some face of big labor standing side-by-side on the picket line. Jim Little needs to call the strike, pick up a sign, and start walking at Centrepork, and LEAD the sheep down a destructive path. He will not like the scene, put down the sign, and walk right into Centrpork and help AA change the laws so he doesn't have to look like fool to his constituents on capital hill.
In this country, when you go on strike.....you alone go on strike, and there are some other A&P, maybe from TIMCO, waiting to take your job. In Europe, when someone goes on strike, they shutdown the country....there are no scabs, therefore, big business has no alternative but to negotiate. When you're able to shutdown the airline industry by going on strike, let me know I'll be right there with you. If workers know they risk having some other idiot mechanic taking their job by striking, they will not strike. The landscape changed when NWA replaced the striking AMFA mechanics with scabs. Big Labor screwed the rest of the A&P mechanics by sitting on their arse and watching our UNION brothers get hosed. If AMFA would have had support from Labor, and been able to shutdown NWA, most would be right there with you calling a strike......Labor contributed to our demise by doing nothing to help the AMFA mechanics. They did nothing to challenge BK vs. RLA, and they've done NOTHING to change the RLA to make it more fair and equal for the workers. You really need to blame Labor for doing NOTHING! The sheep are stupid for keeping the TWU, but we're not that stupid to realize the cards are stacked against us.
 
Bob, to add to my earlier comments:

Things like Occupy Wall Street, civil unrest, and strikes are viewed as bad things in the media. To me, those movements represent a fight against oppression. The housing mess showed how big banks, wall street and the gov't set up the middle-class for failure, made tons of money on the backs of the middle-class, and then screwed the middle-class with TARP, and the housing bubble. But, in a sense, the middle-class fought back by walking away from the american dream. I don't believe the gov't and wall street ever believed it would happen, but it did.
It's unfortunate that the little guy has to resort to wildcat strikes, civil unrest and marches to get our message across, but that is the only way to fight Big Business, Big Oil, Big Gov't and the political system. The whole system is rigged and until 200M people rise against this oppression, they win!
 
You cannot hide behind an alias and ask someone to break theirs.....

First of all Buck. If you would have looked at the sentence there was no question mark at the end of it. So if there was no question mark I would have to guess that this was a statement. If I were to call someone out about there alias and expect them to reveal who they are I would first reveal who I am before I asked who they were. Is that simple english or do I need to put a question mark behind it?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
 
First of all Buck. If you would have looked at the sentence there was no question mark at the end of it. So if there was no question mark I would have to guess that this was a statement. If I were to call someone out about there alias and expect them to reveal who they are I would first reveal who I am before I asked who they were. Is that simple english or do I need to put a question mark behind it?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Simple enough, hold the anger, did not mean to make you mad.
 
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