TWU negotiations.........what?

[Bob Owens]

Nobody is crying before the punch. But since you used the fight analogy, most of us rational people feel like Bob ran out of the BK Bar and said, "We can take this AMR guy inside there and kick his butt and take his money. So we walked in to the BK Bar and we see all these mechanic guys wearing NWA, UAL, US, and DL hats laying all over the floor with their wallets emptied. At the bar is the AMR guy surrounded by some other guys called UA/CO, DL/NW, and US/HP and they look at us up and down sizing us up. Bob keeps yelling in the back, "We can take him! Those other guys didn't know how to fight like I do! Ignore them! Take a swing at AMR guy." Now we are in the BK Bar and we realize we are going to get our butts handed to us and Bob is still out in the parking lot saying,"You can take him!!!"

It's more like we saw the USAIRWAYS guy cough up a few bucks, then the UAL guys cough up a few bucks and we turned around and gave them our wallets and emptied our pockets, that was back in 2003, now nine years later we are giving them our pants! You forget that we already emptied our wallets when we gave up more in pay and benefits than anyone else did even through BK. We are dead last in the industry, even USAIRWAYs gets more than we do.

 

[TWU informer]

It's more like we saw the USAIRWAYS guy cough up a few bucks, then the UAL guys cough up a few bucks and we turned around and gave them our wallets and emptied our pockets, that was back in 2003, now nine years later we are giving them our pants! You forget that we already emptied our wallets when we gave up more in pay and benefits than anyone else did even through BK. We are dead last in the industry, even USAIRWAYs gets more than we do.

Once again I agree with you.

Once again I ask what is your plan? Do have the weapons and manpower to execute your plan?

I think I can read between lines what your plan is, but there appears to be no manpower or available weapons to excecute such a plan. SO then what?

It appears to me that AA still has a belief that with a $1 Billion cost advantage coming out of Chapter 11 that we will paid big on their profit sharing plan so we should not be concerned that we are last in pay. This is old and tired thinking and has been tried at least 3 times (1983, 1995, 2003). All that happens is the other carriers have to match our concessions and/or make another trip to BK to make it even. They are not going to sit back and let AA have that kind of advantage. Then the fare wars begin once again profits are zero or losses accumulate, no profit sharing, no winner strategy, and then the vicious cycle repeats itself again.

What is the short term and long term plan for the union worker/AMT?

Hint, there is no plan. And that is why I keep complaining about the rhetoric regarding a fight. To do battle like you are speaking of Bob, the army must be large enough, the army must well trained on the mission, and the army have superior weapons to that of the opponent. I cannot see where we have any of these yet you want to call us into the fight anyway.

The term Kamikaze comes to my mind when I think about this idea.

Even if you destroy AA as was your hopeful thinking post earlier, the others you would go to work for will continue to play the game the same way. Nothing changes. Just grief, destruction, and disaster.

5 Kamikaze Pilots with a Puppy.
They are dead now.

 

[john john]

It's more like we saw the USAIRWAYS guy cough up a few bucks, then the UAL guys cough up a few bucks and we turned around and gave them our wallets and emptied our pockets, that was back in 2003, now nine years later we are giving them our pants! You forget that we already emptied our wallets when we gave up more in pay and benefits than anyone else did even through BK. We are dead last in the industry, even USAIRWAYs gets more than we do.

Tell the membership the term sheet is the final offer(if that is the case) and take a strike vote to authorize a strike or other lawful job action in the event that management imposes concessions through the bankruptcy process without a vote of the employees. See what kind of bargaining power the union has. There might be something in the lurks and a strong support for a strike might upset the apple cart. It is all about Bargaining power at the table
But ….your group might not want to take the risk. Sharon Levine has spend substantial amount of time in bankruptcy court

 

[Duke787]

Bob Owens does not speak alone as some of you appear to think. Many members agree with Bob's philosophy on achieving bargaining from a position of strength. Some of you have your priorities as self serving or unwilling to put yourself out in any attempt to try and make it right. There are no quarantees with anything but just to sign your life away again is so submissive and typical. We as a union have never fought for anything that required effort and personal sacrifice. Just when we are faced with our biggest challenge to date, we want to fold and hope for the best again. We deserve everything we dont get as we are a weak union with members who want to blame everyone else for our shortfalls. Only we allow us to be manipulated and played for fools.
Knock Bob Owens if you must but he has alot more respect from the floor than most on this forum. He speaks with conviction,supports what he says, and does not fold just because it is not popular. Local 562 Board fully supports Bob Owens and Steve Gukelberger.

Some rant about the membership voting down the contract. Anything good that was in there would have been gone anyway and anything bad would have stayed voluntarily and then we would have went into bankruptcy. So stop with the what we gave up.

"to speak and do nothing is like crying before you get hit""

That's a great speech, but with your restore and more rhetoric, You have given your members an unrealistic expectation, and have cost every mechanic $15k in cash alone. That is money we will NEVER be able to make up. Do you expect AA to give us a $15k retro check. How much power do you think we have in BK? Your trying to hit a home run instead of getting on base, but what you did is strike out. I like Owen's ideas as much as anybody else, but I'm more realistic in what we can achieve in these tough times.

 

[enough already]

That's a great speech, but with your restore and more rhetoric, You have given your members an unrealistic expectation, and have cost every mechanic $15k in cash alone. That is money we will NEVER be able to make up. Do you expect AA to give us a $15k retro check. How much power do you think we have in BK? Your trying to hit a home run instead of getting on base, but what you did is strike out. I like Owen's ideas as much as anybody else, but I'm more realistic in what we can achieve in these tough times.

What he said.

 

[Buck]

Tell the membership the term sheet is the final offer(if that is the case) and take a strike vote to authorize a strike or other lawful job action in the event that management imposes concessions through the bankruptcy process without a vote of the employees. See what kind of bargaining power the union has. There might be something in the lurks and a strong support for a strike might upset the apple cart. It is all about Bargaining power at the table
But ….your group might not want to take the risk. Sharon Levine has spend substantial amount of time in bankruptcy court

What great idea, however keeping the results secret from the company would be difficult and that would be the key to effectively positioning ourselves for negotiations. However my feelings are that the Term Sheet with minor modifications is a starting point for future negotiations. Let's get there first.

 

[737823]

If all the planes were sitting on the ground the case would be heard, and if that was the case the result would likely be different. Its time for Unions to act like Unions. I said back in 2002 that we all needed to get together and shut it down if they use BK to screw us. I said that it may be USAIR now but all the rest of us would be next. AA would only complete the first cycle. Hostess just filed with the intent of only going after labor contracts. BK has become the new way to get around collective bargaining. In our case the company exploited the RLA for four years then jumped into BK with over $4 billion in cash, by no means broke, bankrupt, by the liberal definition sure, morally as well. If AA is successful then why would UAL or any other carrier ever negotiate? Why wouldnt UAL drag talks out and file for BK? If AA can get away with filing with $4 billion then why couldnt UAL do the same after several years of profits? Show profits and hold off on writing stuff off till the year before you file.

It's easy to now say you should have "gotten together" to fight the inevitable or as you say the concessions train. Your fellow union leaders at the IBEW have been touting "let's get together" for years now and you see how far that got them in negotiations with Verizon. As a union leader what are you prepared to do going forward to achieve the best deal possible for your members? Clearly the past tactics have not been fruitful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7cB2hVCEfA

Josh

 

[Buck]

Josh what are you doing? Why are you even here?

You must have quite a bit of surfing to come up with the video.

The only problem the union people in the TWU have is the separation brought about by the distance of ideas. The Northeast coast unionism is of a historical form, while the rest of the country has other ideas. You are jumping between the division and pushing us apart. Again what is your purpose in doing so?

 

[700UW]

It's easy to now say you should have "gotten together" to fight the inevitable or as you say the concessions train. Your fellow union leaders at the IBEW have been touting "let's get together" for years now and you see how far that got them in negotiations with Verizon. As a union leader what are you prepared to do going forward to achieve the best deal possible for your members? Clearly the past tactics have not been fruitful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7cB2hVCEfA

Josh

This is about the TWU, not the IBEW.

Now dont you have some old lady to kick out of her house today?

 

[737823]

Josh what are you doing? Why are you even here?

You must have quite a bit of surfing to come up with the video.

The only problem the union people in the TWU have is the separation brought about by the distance of ideas. The Northeast coast unionism is of a historical form, while the rest of the country has other ideas. You are jumping between the division and pushing us apart. Again what is your purpose in doing so?

Not trying to push anyone apart, just interested in labor relations with AA given the amount I fly AA and interest in a smooth operation with courteous and professional employees. It didn't take long to find the YouTube video, it even came up as a related video from Bob's summer 2010 TA video.

Josh

 

[Deleted member 14439]

Heads up http://twu514.org/blog/2012/03/14/heads-up-scam/

 

[Buck]

Not trying to push anyone apart, just interested in labor relations with AA given the amount I fly AA and interest in a smooth operation would courteous and professional employees. It didn't take long to find the YouTube video, it even came up as a related video from Bob's summer 2010 TA video.

Josh

Ok Josh, I work Avionics and I am going to assume that you are an Advantage Super Secret, Decoder Ring required, customer. I am performing maintenance and find a bare wire for your positional seat. I should fix it, but I have been reading your posts and decide screw it. During your trip you are shocked a few times and want to be moved, but First Class is full and as I assume, you will piss and moan about being forced to fly coach, then I am going to assume( alot of assuming ) that coach is full. The attendant now must deactivate the electronics for First Class and you are pissed and First Class is pissed. Me, I don't give a sh*t, because it is labors way of relations with a customer who does not give a sh*t about labor.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

That's a great speech, but with your restore and more rhetoric, You have given your members an unrealistic expectation, and have cost every mechanic $15k in cash alone. That is money we will NEVER be able to make up. Do you expect AA to give us a $15k retro check.


Who says you ever would have recieved that 15K, it was contingent on all groups passing as they say now with the pension freeze. The 15K was only a promise and would have been wiped out. Its like declaring a loss before you buy something.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Why is it that if I don't agree with you it means that my priorities are self-serving and that I'm being manipulated and foolish? You have your priorities and that's fine. But are they not YOUR priorities? Who are they serving? Are you not being manipulative by trying to browbeat others into your way of thinking?

Don't forget there's still money on the table and retro is on the way!

We are being manipulated by the company and maybe some of our own into thinking to be submissive and just take what they are willing to offer, not you personally. History has demonstrated that the way the TWU negotiates is concessionary and submissive. We need to try another approach thats what I believe. Nothing comes easy dealing with corporate america and the government. Like Bob Owens has said in the past " it takes 10lbs of effort to get 1lb of gain". We are offering zero pound of effort which produces zero amount of gain! We say we are a union but we act like a local club. We are a membership of 12,000 in M&R nationwide and we lay dormant waiting for the slaughter. I dont get that? there is no reason we all should not be on the same page with this.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Why is it that if I don't agree with you it means that my priorities are self-serving and that I'm being manipulated and foolish? You have your priorities and that's fine. But are they not YOUR priorities? Who are they serving? Are you not being manipulative by trying to browbeat others into your way of thinking?

Don't forget there's still money on the table and retro is on the way!

do you realize that the PBGC was instrumental in pressuring AA to keep pension? The PBGC placed lien of 91 million dollars against assets of american airlines in south america. I repeat assets in south america, if they could place a lien of 91 million dollars against assets, how much is actually down there and abroad? Maybe there is money on the table, just not the negotiating table!