TWU negotiations.........what?

[Overspeed]

a little misleading, the decision said that we must go to section 6 procedures, well we were already there, for several years, what excuse would the NMB put forward after four years of talks,abrogation under bk , imposition of new terms as a reason to hope that a delay may produce a contract?

If we were in that position I feel that we would really be morally justified to resort to what the courts may consider to be illegal job actions. When judges cherry pick parts of laws to strip workers of their rights we must fight back. In this case airline workers are subject to a disadvantage that no other workers face, rail union contracts can not be voided, workers under the NLRA are free to strike upon abrogation and government workers usually automatically go to arbitration. They have crafted an injustice so I would have no problem telling the courts to go pound salt and shut the place down. So they put me in jail, then they get to feed me and my family. Under such conditions there can be no future in this industry anyway.

Maybe it could be a wake up call for labor, we saw how civil disobedience worked in Egypt and Libya , even China started raising workers wages because they were concerned about labor unrest. Things will only get worse if we follow rules that are rigged.

I don't recall if you ever answered my question on your opinion of the ruling other than to say "it is what it is". I'm not a lawyer but those whom Ive spoken to, who are on the other side, indicate that they think it was a very flawed ruling, in fact wasn't there dissent on the ruling? Sure he could abrogate an airline contract, but can he really declare it annulled, which is pretty much what he said, "as if it never existed",when the company wasnt claiming that the contract was put in place under false pretenses?


You and I have gone back and forth over labor costs for many years now, AA has gone on record as saying that they have an $800 million dollar cost disadvantage, which we have debated, yet in BK they say they need $1. 25 billion in savings from labor. Well if the disadvantage is $800 million how is it they need $1.25 billion from labor?

The recent flip flop on terminating he pensions has me thinking that the company did not want to take on the PBGC. AA could have put the program in deep trouble and the program has the backing of the government, if AA had gotten away with sinking the PBGC then started posting record profits there's a chance that the whole C-11 scam could come under public scrutiny. Just as proponents of bk reform for people were able to rewrite the law to stop individual scammers such a scandal could endanger the scam for other corporations who may really need it down the road.

On being released to self help you answered your own question. The NMB has the control, if they don't release you then you cannot legally strike regardless if you disagree with the NMB.

When you orchestrate the illegal job action I hope you are ready for the TRO and to get personally fined by the courts like the APA and Officers were. I hope you transferred your assets to out of your name. Flashback to 1999 from Judge Kendall, In a blatant threat to break the union if it continued the sick-out, he added, " if the activity and consequent damages continue ... all the assets of the union, including their strike war chest, will be capable of being safely stored in the overhead bin of a Piper Cub." In addition, he ordered APA President LaVoy and Vice President Mayhew pay $10,000 and $5,000 fines, respectively. Get your checkbook ready unless Local 562 will help you out. Hopefully the judge gives you a receipt. Why would the court have to pay to feed your family? You made the decision to do something illegal. Are you accountable for anything Bob?

Do you really think the other non-union people are really going to shutdown the country like Egypt? For us? Most of the anti-union press has already poisoned the public's mind. Most people think pensions are a luxury. Sad but true. Should have thought this out Bob.

Call Chap 11 a scam but face the fact. You said this was a threat and now that you are mired in it you want to shutdown AA and then the country.

 

[Duke787]

a little misleading, the decision said that we must go to section 6 procedures, well we were already there, for several years, what excuse would the NMB put forward after four years of talks,abrogation under bk , imposition of new terms as a reason to hope that a delay may produce a contract?

If we were in that position I feel that we would really be morally justified to resort to what the courts may consider to be illegal job actions. When judges cherry pick parts of laws to strip workers of their rights we must fight back. In this case airline workers are subject to a disadvantage that no other workers face, rail union contracts can not be voided, workers under the NLRA are free to strike upon abrogation and government workers usually automatically go to arbitration. They have crafted an injustice so I would have no problem telling the courts to go pound salt and shut the place down. So they put me in jail, then they get to feed me and my family. Under such conditions there can be no future in this industry anyway.

Maybe it could be a wake up call for labor, we saw how civil disobedience worked in Egypt and Libya , even China started raising workers wages because they were concerned about labor unrest. Things will only get worse if we follow rules that are rigged.

I don't recall if you ever answered my question on your opinion of the ruling other than to say "it is what it is". I'm not a lawyer but those whom Ive spoken to, who are on the other side, indicate that they think it was a very flawed ruling, in fact wasn't there dissent on the ruling? Sure he could abrogate an airline contract, but can he really declare it annulled, which is pretty much what he said, "as if it never existed",when the company wasnt claiming that the contract was put in place under false pretenses?


You and I have gone back and forth over labor costs for many years now, AA has gone on record as saying that they have an $800 million dollar cost disadvantage, which we have debated, yet in BK they say they need $1. 25 billion in savings from labor. Well if the disadvantage is $800 million how is it they need $1.25 billion from labor?

The recent flip flop on terminating he pensions has me thinking that the company did not want to take on the PBGC. AA could have put the program in deep trouble and the program has the backing of the government, if AA had gotten away with sinking the PBGC then started posting record profits there's a chance that the whole C-11 scam could come under public scrutiny. Just as proponents of bk reform for people were able to rewrite the law to stop individual scammers such a scandal could endanger the scam for other corporations who may really need it down the road.

You should concentrate on getting us the best deal possible, not doing illegal work actions. You are big on theory, but short on reality.

 

[AANOTOK]

What do you have to lose? A job with an airline that wants to give you less sick time than any other airline, union or nonunion, wants you to pay more for your medical than any other airline, give you less iod time should you get hurt trying to make them money, less holidays, less vacation, the worst pension, the worst work rules and the lowest hourly wage, that's what you have to lose, now go out there and make them number one!

Uh-Oh, sounds like to me the negotiations aren't going to well, or at all. Hello Term Sheet!! <_<

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

What do you have to lose? A job with an airline that wants to give you less sick time than any other airline, union or nonunion, wants you to pay more for your medical than any other airline, give you less iod time should you get hurt trying to make them money, less holidays, less vacation, the worst pension, the worst work rules and the lowest hourly wage, that's what you have to lose, now go out there and make them number one!

They will work for food and give anything back so long as they have a job. That is the mentality of people who feel they have more to give. Must be the yes voters who are still pissed at the majority who turned down the last TA...

 

[Mr Red]

That sounds like something Bob would do. He knows everything and is accountable for nothing. The Teflon President.

A Rif to NY would change your attitude,About all people like you do is convince the rest of us that the best thing we can do is separate totally from tule !

 

[Buck]

A Rif to NY would change your attitude,About all people like you do is convince the rest of us that the best thing we can do is separate totally from tule !

How does one RIF to NY?

If the company can achieve it's goal of a one time virtual bump, there will be little movement.

Another possibility would be to "RED CIRCLE" the system. The company could keep it's experience in place, especially on the line.

 

[Frank Szabo]

The bottom line seems more like the company expected the Term Sheet to be dealt over, sweetening it a tad with the offer to not dump the pensions, but all the many fingers in the pie just couldn't help poisoning the water a bit more than had already been done over the course of many years.

Now - who exactly is responsible for that - who, exactly, stands to benefit the least from change and is therefore raising hell? That's the only question we need answer.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Bob Owens does not speak alone as some of you appear to think. Many members agree with Bob's philosophy on achieving bargaining from a position of strength. Some of you have your priorities as self serving or unwilling to put yourself out in any attempt to try and make it right. There are no quarantees with anything but just to sign your life away again is so submissive and typical. We as a union have never fought for anything that required effort and personal sacrifice. Just when we are faced with our biggest challenge to date, we want to fold and hope for the best again. We deserve everything we dont get as we are a weak union with members who want to blame everyone else for our shortfalls. Only we allow us to be manipulated and played for fools.
Knock Bob Owens if you must but he has alot more respect from the floor than most on this forum. He speaks with conviction,supports what he says, and does not fold just because it is not popular. Local 562 Board fully supports Bob Owens and Steve Gukelberger.

Some rant about the membership voting down the contract. Anything good that was in there would have been gone anyway and anything bad would have stayed voluntarily and then we would have went into bankruptcy. So stop with the what we gave up.

"to speak and do nothing is like crying before you get hit""

 

[Overspeed]

Bob Owens does not speak alone as some of you appear to think. Many members agree with Bob's philosophy on achieving bargaining from a position of strength. Some of you have your priorities as self serving or unwilling to put yourself out in any attempt to try and make it right. There are no quarantees with anything but just to sign your life away again is so submissive and typical. We as a union have never fought for anything that required effort and personal sacrifice. Just when we are faced with our biggest challenge to date, we want to fold and hope for the best again. We deserve everything we dont get as we are a weak union with members who want to blame everyone else for our shortfalls. Only we allow us to be manipulated and played for fools.
Knock Bob Owens if you must but he has alot more respect from the floor than most on this forum. He speaks with conviction,supports what he says, and does not fold just because it is not popular. Local 562 Board fully supports Bob Owens and Steve Gukelberger.

Some rant about the membership voting down the contract. Anything good that was in there would have been gone anyway and anything bad would have stayed voluntarily and then we would have went into bankruptcy. So stop with the what we gave up.

"to speak and do nothing is like crying before you get hit""

Nobody is crying before the punch. But since you used the fight analogy, most of us rational people feel like Bob ran out of the BK Bar and said, "We can take this AMR guy inside there and kick his butt and take his money. So we walked in to the BK Bar and we see all these mechanic guys wearing NWA, UAL, US, and DL hats laying all over the floor with their wallets emptied. At the bar is the AMR guy surrounded by some other guys called UA/CO, DL/NW, and US/HP and they look at us up and down sizing us up. Bob keeps yelling in the back, "We can take him! Those other guys didn't know how to fight like I do! Ignore them! Take a swing at AMR guy." Now we are in the BK Bar and we realize we are going to get our butts handed to us and Bob is still out in the parking lot saying,"You can take him!!!"

 

[Overspeed]

A Rif to NY would change your attitude,About all people like you do is convince the rest of us that the best thing we can do is separate totally from tule !

I don't work in TULE or any other overhaul base. I do however have many friends that do and they are just as capable as most of us of doing line work. The majority of overnight work is off of work cards. You know that and had to start somewhere. During the 1992/93 RIFs many sharp structure mechanics came out to the line and they were and asset. We probably called fewer TULE F/Ts because these guys could read the DC10 SRM like it was written in English (that was a little bit of humor).

If base guys do get RIF'd, and they will, I will help my fellow union brother or sister get up to speed because that's what union people do. Time to stop talking like we line guys are immortal or some kind of maintenance demigods. We are all good in our own right.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Nobody is crying before the punch. But since you used the fight analogy, most of us rational people feel like Bob ran out of the BK Bar and said, "We can take this AMR guy inside there and kick his butt and take his money. So we walked in to the BK Bar and we see all these mechanic guys wearing NWA, UAL, US, and DL hats laying all over the floor with their wallets emptied. At the bar is the AMR guy surrounded by some other guys called UA/CO, DL/NW, and US/HP and they look at us up and down sizing us up. Bob keeps yelling in the back, "We can take him! Those other guys didn't know how to fight like I do! Ignore them! Take a swing at AMR guy." Now we are in the BK Bar and we realize we are going to get our butts handed to us and Bob is still out in the parking lot saying,"You can take him!!!"

Oh I get it, We never should try and fight anything or anyone that is destroying our careers and our families. One thing for sure is not doing anything will definitly get us nothing. Men sacrificed their blood and unslefishly did what ever to fight for work rules, conditions, and benefits that we have enjoyed. here you are saying just give it away, no fight to keep anything. some of us believe we should do what ever it takes to try and keep what other men sacrificed to get us. It isn 't like Corporate America is going to lose theirs! It is your thinking that is bringing down the working man and embarrassing our past union workers. You are the type to say; no on else has a pension, so how can we keep it? some of us feel we should help them fight to keep their pension so we can keep ours. But why would you think of that? maybe your too busy blaming everyone else. there was nothing wrong with the philosophy of our origin union founders or Bob Owens. Mike Quill had he listened to you he never would have stood up to the judge and he would not have been an icon for the TWU. He was a leader and went against the grain to achieve something. He put himself out there. Where are you and your few supporters on this? Hiding behind alias names and spewing logic that is against all principals of any unionism and Mike Quill. Step up and join the party. This is not about the TWU as much as a complete war on labor in many sectors and people like you sit on the sidelines waiting for a miracle that is not coming and mock others who want to try to make it right!


why dont you just take the leap and join corporate america because you have nothing to offer here but lip service and criticism without any suggestions.

 

[Bob Owens]

Now that we are in this situation, do you not believe that the company will be forthcoming in keeping the workforce competitive?

With pension virtually gone and at least the mechanic and related at the bottom in compensation, what other course do they have, to keep mechanics.

Define competitive.
To me it means evenly matched. Otherwise there really isn't a competition.
I am not a proponent of slashing wages and benefits to keep jobs, they take the money then take the jobs anyway and what we are left with is a job that's not worth coming back to.

 

[Bob Owens]

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[enough already]

Some of you have your priorities as self serving or unwilling to put yourself out in any attempt to try and make it right.

Only we allow us to be manipulated and played for fools.

Why is it that if I don't agree with you it means that my priorities are self-serving and that I'm being manipulated and foolish? You have your priorities and that's fine. But are they not YOUR priorities? Who are they serving? Are you not being manipulative by trying to browbeat others into your way of thinking?

Some rant about the membership voting down the contract. Anything good that was in there would have been gone anyway and anything bad would have stayed voluntarily and then we would have went into bankruptcy.

Don't forget there's still money on the table and retro is on the way!

 

[Bob Owens]

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