TWU negotiations.........what?

[Buck]

Most power port problems also have to do with the crappy wiring connectors under the seat. 99% of the problems have to do with the connector becoming unplugged. The rest are the power supply.

Why would the union entertain binding arbitration? Arbitration is more informal and takes the creditors committee out of the process. My bet is that binding arbitration won't happen. Too late for that in my opinion. The creditors and Wall Street want a big cost cutting number. In their view, binding arbitration is not going to be brutal enough.

Binding Arbitration also removes the direct vote from the membership.

 

[Overspeed]

I have worked for AAR and look at Article 47 to see who negotiates the contract.

I still do not see your point. A topped out mechanic at AA makes around 40% more than a starting mechanic but I didnt include OSMs, many of whom have their licenses, they start at just $9.58.

Cheaper is not always cheaper. Sure you can pay $55/hr but if you have to do it twice to get it right then you paid $110, plus lost the use of the aircraft in the meantime. tell us, how much do you figure AA saved with Timco? Dont bother try to spin it off as a learning curve, the systems in a delta 757 are pretty much the same as an AA 757.

And you are on the committee. If you are not relevant then why are you wasting your members money to show up? And the AAR you worked for didn't have the IND ex-UAL maintenance base. They have some good facilities there and technology now. You should call Danny Martinez for a tour.

The point was clear, a OSS can hire two for the price or one.

Not going to spin anything. I have stated in my earlier post that I hope that the TIMCO debacle opens AA's eyes. Take it easy bro!

 

[Overspeed]

Ok so we can put you on record as saying that WN has 500 mechanics in Overhaul?

WN makes over $40, more like $46, plus all the VC, Holidays, sick etc . AA is looking to cut heads on the line, over 400, take away another week of VC, take away the MRT and pay just $32.77. More than $10/hr less.

How about doing the math comparing the company ASK to a legacy carrier that went through BK such as UA? This Summer they top out at $38.08, we would be getting $32.77, base guys even less. They also have Double Time, 10 Holidays at 2.5X, more vacation, more than double the sick time, yes they get charged for a whole day even though they get paid 75% but AA wants us to get charged a whole day for 60% pay but UAL gets 12 days a year and we only get 5.

The fact is when you add it all in we are already dead last, and the company wants to sink us even further down. We already lag industry average (which we drag down) by around $8/hr counting HW and VC. Using the same assumptions the company uses by 2018 that gap would increase to around $11/hr.

If the only way that AA can survive is by paying us $11/hr below "industry" average (or around $20/hr less than industry leading) then perhaps over the longer term its in our best interests that AA not survive.

There is no doubt that should AA liquidate it would be a traumatic event for most of us, however if this is what we can expect from AA as a future then in reality the survival of AA could in fact be the worst case scenario, especially for those of us in high cost areas. If AA gets what they want and survives not only would we be making much less than we are now in real dollars but we would drag down the industry, thus limiting prospects outside of AA within the industry.Competitors will poiint across the ramp and say "how can I compete when they pay their workers $11/hr less?" As we have seen with EAL and other carriers when one carrier ceases to exist and vacates the market, others expand, and when they do they pick up the workers from the defunct carrier. All those people that get jamed onto AA planes arent going to just stay home and the owners arent going to let their assett sit idle. Does anyone think that NY, MIA and LAX thrive because of AA or that if AA ceases to exist those facilities wil go unused? By 2018 those of us who stay in the industry would be back at top pay but instead of getting at the most $34.89, which is what AA ios offering, we could expect at least $42.60/hr. Of course we would need for AA to liquidate so the others could rapidly expand. Some may say to just quit and go now, and some may do that, but in order to create enough openings AA would have to cease operations, otherwise AA would have a cost advantage that would simply drag other carriers, and their workers down.

Of course the older you are the harder it would be to recover but even at 50 you could make out better if AA liquidated vs accepting what they are proposing. At around a $23,000 year difference if you got in 10 years at top pay you would make around $230,000 more. Of course if you were lucky enough to land at WN or UPS it could be much more than that.

What the company is proposing is a job but the end of any hopes of looking at this as a career. We keep our tools on wheels for a reason, we may need to roll them out the door if we want to still have any hopes of having a career in this industry.

You seriously want to latch on to 500? Go ahead. The point was that WN has 500 (estimate) working overhaul type work. They do no engines or components. If you are saying they do have overhaul and they are like AA, hardly. If you are saying that WN overhaul makes $40/hour so that AA can pay that...then that's weak. That is flawed logic. 5000 making $40 and 500 making $40 is a BIG difference.

You neglected to point out that the BK airlines offloaded all (NW) to 50% of their overhaul in BK. Look at the total cost of the contract. Try your cherry picking approach in arbitration or court and the Company will bring it back to total cost of contract. Also, you are in BK now, parity means nothing now.

Your last diatribe sounds defeatist. We only have to wait until 2018 to get top pay. Well that softens the blow.

 

[FWAAA]

Why would the union entertain binding arbitration? Arbitration is more informal and takes the creditors committee out of the process. My bet is that binding arbitration won't happen. Too late for that in my opinion. The creditors and Wall Street want a big cost cutting number. In their view, binding arbitration is not going to be brutal enough.

I'm not sure I agree. The bankruptcy judge and creditors would still have to approve the arbitrated result. The result would be binding on the employees and the company once the creditors and court approve. The union wants binding arbitration because its leaders realize that they have no real bargaining power and arbitration offers them a way to avoid taking the blame (so they think) for the substantial cuts to benefits, work rules and way of life. A face-saving way to make someone else the scapegoat ("don't blame us - blame the arbitrator").

 

[strikeforce]

I'm not sure I agree. The bankruptcy judge and creditors would still have to approve the arbitrated result. The result would be binding on the employees and the company once the creditors and court approve. The union wants binding arbitration because its leaders realize that they have no real bargaining power and arbitration offers them a way to avoid taking the blame (so they think) for the substantial cuts to benefits, work rules and way of life. A face-saving way to make someone else the scapegoat ("don't blame us - blame the arbitrator").

The TWU leadership asked the NMB for binding arbitration, right?? Then, the TWU WILL take the blame for this if BA turns out to be more disastrous than the term sheet....trust me!

 

[Overspeed]

To Bob's point that "cheaper isn't always cheaper" you also have to consider that more expensive isn't always better.

Love Field is also a fairly busy station, so is that 500 mechanic figure just for the hangars, or is it split between line and base?? How many line mechanics would they staff for a 200 flight operation?

Knowing WN, they probably don't even separate the two as widely as AA seems to... Need someone over on the line to deal with something? Steal someone from the hangars... Good luck trying that at DFW. You'd have a line at the grievance office.

The 500 figure was an estimate. Both PHX and DAL do overhaul type work however not like AA. WN phases their LC work in with what AA calls a BC so the line/overhaul line is blurred at WN in large part. Not sure AA could replicate this with our WB fleet.

As far as line PHX, DAL, MDW, and BWI are big stations however they use a different line philosophy. Many of their small outstations have a very small AMT staff on days and afternoons only. The priority is to get the fleet back to the big stations where permanent repairs can be performed on the overnight.

DFW for AA has a lot of issues but taking HC from the hangar is a struggle if you want to do it quickly. The distance between the hangar and the terminal is huge. The division between avionics and generals is an issue though. I think that's why the company wants to change that.

 

[Overspeed]

No you just promote them.

Promote? No educate people.

Your "all or nothing" approach is working so well.

Let's look at what you have said, BK is a threat, there is more money on the table, vote no we can get a better deal, don't settle until CO and UA, and the only way we can get a better deal is under threat of strike.

Now we are in BK, there is no money on the table because the secured creditors get first claim, anything we get now will be worse than the July 2010 TA, CO and UA have settled and for not much more than they had before, and a strike is a near impossibility so BK took away your hammer. Based on the facts, you don't have much credibility do you? In fact now you are saying, "Hey guys, at the worst we will all be back at top pay by 2018." Sounds like another way of saying, "We'll get'em next time brother."

 

[TulsaTurd]

Promote? No educate people.

Your "all or nothing" approach is working so well.

You guys instead of squabbling over trivial numbers should concentrate on how we're gonna stop the IAM from stapling all the TWU members to the bottom of thier seniority list after US Air buys AA.

 

[Overspeed]

You guys instead of squabbling over trivial numbers should concentrate on how we're gonna stop the IAM from stapling all the TWU members to the bottom of thier seniority list after US Air buys AA.

We screwed ourselves. When we refused to dovetail or workout some other type of agreement other than going to arbitration, we set the standard. The AA/TWU members wanted to protect themselves and since we could not workout an agreement we got the awesomeness of the Kasher Award.

Karma, it's a mutha! Maybe I will be able to hold Tues/Wed on swings if a merger happens.

 

[Overspeed]

I'm not sure I agree. The bankruptcy judge and creditors would still have to approve the arbitrated result. The result would be binding on the employees and the company once the creditors and court approve. The union wants binding arbitration because its leaders realize that they have no real bargaining power and arbitration offers them a way to avoid taking the blame (so they think) for the substantial cuts to benefits, work rules and way of life. A face-saving way to make someone else the scapegoat ("don't blame us - blame the arbitrator").

That makes a lot of sense. I agree with your assessment.

 

[texasreb]

You guys instead of squabbling over trivial numbers should concentrate on how we're gonna stop the IAM from stapling all the TWU members to the bottom of thier seniority list after US Air buys AA.

Who says it is USAir as the surviving airline?

 

[john john]

I'm not sure I agree. The bankruptcy judge and creditors would still have to approve the arbitrated result. The result would be binding on the employees and the company once the creditors and court approve. The union wants binding arbitration because its leaders realize that they have no real bargaining power and arbitration offers them a way to avoid taking the blame (so they think) for the substantial cuts to benefits, work rules and way of life. A face-saving way to make someone else the scapegoat ("don't blame us - blame the arbitrator").

So it’s not really binding to all parties the arbitration results can be change

 

[FWAAA]

So it’s not really binding to all parties the arbitrated result can be change

Bankrupt companies and their employee unions have no power to remove the creditors and bankruptcy judge from the decision-making process. They can agree to arbitrate, and if the creditors and court accept the result, then you have a binding agreement. There's no rocket science involved - it's pretty basic bankruptcy law.

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

Which begs the question of precedent,has a bankrupt entity ever agreed to binding arbitration and obtained judicial approval?

You're absolutely right Jim "Fight like hell" Little doesn't want to be the one holding the bag.

 

[Overspeed]

Bankrupt companies and their employee unions have no power to remove the creditors and bankruptcy judge from the decision-making process. They can agree to arbitrate, and if the creditors and court accept the result, then you have a binding agreement. There's no rocket science involved - it's pretty basic bankruptcy law.

But if the newly restructured contracts do not sufficiently lower costs in the eyes of the creditors committee under BK law don't they have the right to object and have the judge impose their plan?