TWU negotiations.........what?

[Overspeed]

forget about your math class. WN and AA run different maintenance programs. AA has extensive IFE systems that take up countless hours of manpower. Plus, the BOW differ between fleet types. I'm sure that WN amt's are very proficient on the 737, while AA amt's are somewhat proficient on 5 fleet types. Does anyone know the manhours dedicated to WN's 737 overall maintenance program compared to AA's 737?? Plus, ECO's??? Then, add in how many hours the 757, 767, 777 & MD-80 take up throughout the year. There's a valid reason why AA has 10K amt's on payroll, and that's because they need that many to satisfy their maintenance needs.

IFE? Seriously? RCI does most of the 777 IFE and video on all the other fleets. MD80s don't have IFE and the remainder of the avionics work is working changing out DPCUs for broken audio jacks. MUX systems are another story and aren't that hard to fix once you locate which under seat decoder had the cord kicked out by the passenger. Maintenance programs are dictated by the MRB and AA adds a bunch of stuff to theirs. I did add in additional HC for the 757s, 767s, and 777s. And I was only taking about the line. If WN had 90% of their work in-house they would probably have a lot more AMTs but not making $40/hour. WN outsources all their engines, components, and landing gear. They do limited airframe overhaul in PHX and DAL so back to the point.

It's not just an overhaul issue. Line has some water to carry in this BK process as well.

 

[Overspeed]

Have you ever successfully negotiated a CBA......that wasn't concessionary?

Not much to brag about if you have!!

No I can definitely say I have never negotiated a concessionary agreement.

 

[strikeforce]

IFE? Seriously? RCI does most of the 777 IFE and video on all the other fleets. MD80s don't have IFE and the remainder of the avionics work is working changing out DPCUs for broken audio jacks. MUX systems are another story and aren't that hard to fix once you locate which under seat decoder had the cord kicked out by the passenger. Maintenance programs are dictated by the MRB and AA adds a bunch of stuff to theirs. I did add in additional HC for the 757s, 767s, and 777s. And I was only taking about the line. If WN had 90% of their work in-house they would probably have a lot more AMTs but not making $40/hour. WN outsources all their engines, components, and landing gear. They do limited airframe overhaul in PHX and DAL so back to the point.

It's not just an overhaul issue. Line has some water to carry in this BK process as well.

The IFE systems I'm talking about are the MUX & powerports on the line. On any given night avionics is dealing with cabin audio issues or powerports. OH happens to be the target by AA to either compete against the MRO's or farm it out. They're just streamlining some jobs on the line.

Why would the union entertain binding arbitration if they know most carriers outsource more than the 40% AA wants to outsource??? Why place additional jobs at risk?? Probably the only good thing about BA is that there's a good chance most will see a pay raise, more holidays at 2x, sick time at full pay, and maybe some pay related goodies. And, that's only going to happen if the arbitration panel rules strictly on industry standards, which they most likely won't with a carrier in bankruptcy. I don't believe the NMB will stick there neck out and reward the unions with some gains, while harming the company. No different than the BK judge ruling in favor of the unions while killing the golden goose. I just don't see the benefit of BA.

 

[Bob Owens]

Uh no I have not worked for AAR. Have you ever successfully negotiated a CBA?

The 2X wage was to illustrate the point that a topped out AMT at AA working straight time could have either two AAR AMTs or one working double time and still not make what an AMT does at AA. Remember, most of AA's AMTs are topped out.

Your right, it is not what AAR pays but what AA would pay for the work. So if the AA rate is about $100/hour with no profit margin (what AA charges itself) or $55/hour with a profit margin for the work at AAR which is cheaper?

I have worked for AAR and look at Article 47 to see who negotiates the contract.

I still do not see your point. A topped out mechanic at AA makes around 40% more than a starting mechanic but I didnt include OSMs, many of whom have their licenses, they start at just $9.58.

Cheaper is not always cheaper. Sure you can pay $55/hr but if you have to do it twice to get it right then you paid $110, plus lost the use of the aircraft in the meantime. tell us, how much do you figure AA saved with Timco? Dont bother try to spin it off as a learning curve, the systems in a delta 757 are pretty much the same as an AA 757.

 

[Bob Owens]

What do you do and what do WN AMTs do? There are about 1500 WN AMTs working on about 600 airplanes making $40/hour. I know they are not doing everything we do in-house. But they do have a base in PHX and DAL so at least 500 of them are working base type work.

So we would need to RIF 635 AMTs on the line and do the same amount of work to be like WN. That gets you about $55M but will the guys that stay really do the same work as WN? Hmmm...

Ok so we can put you on record as saying that WN has 500 mechanics in Overhaul?

WN makes over $40, more like $46, plus all the VC, Holidays, sick etc . AA is looking to cut heads on the line, over 400, take away another week of VC, take away the MRT and pay just $32.77. More than $10/hr less.

How about doing the math comparing the company ASK to a legacy carrier that went through BK such as UA? This Summer they top out at $38.08, we would be getting $32.77, base guys even less. They also have Double Time, 10 Holidays at 2.5X, more vacation, more than double the sick time, yes they get charged for a whole day even though they get paid 75% but AA wants us to get charged a whole day for 60% pay but UAL gets 12 days a year and we only get 5.

The fact is when you add it all in we are already dead last, and the company wants to sink us even further down. We already lag industry average (which we drag down) by around $8/hr counting HW and VC. Using the same assumptions the company uses by 2018 that gap would increase to around $11/hr.

If the only way that AA can survive is by paying us $11/hr below "industry" average (or around $20/hr less than industry leading) then perhaps over the longer term its in our best interests that AA not survive.

There is no doubt that should AA liquidate it would be a traumatic event for most of us, however if this is what we can expect from AA as a future then in reality the survival of AA could in fact be the worst case scenario, especially for those of us in high cost areas. If AA gets what they want and survives not only would we be making much less than we are now in real dollars but we would drag down the industry, thus limiting prospects outside of AA within the industry.Competitors will poiint across the ramp and say "how can I compete when they pay their workers $11/hr less?" As we have seen with EAL and other carriers when one carrier ceases to exist and vacates the market, others expand, and when they do they pick up the workers from the defunct carrier. All those people that get jamed onto AA planes arent going to just stay home and the owners arent going to let their assett sit idle. Does anyone think that NY, MIA and LAX thrive because of AA or that if AA ceases to exist those facilities wil go unused? By 2018 those of us who stay in the industry would be back at top pay but instead of getting at the most $34.89, which is what AA ios offering, we could expect at least $42.60/hr. Of course we would need for AA to liquidate so the others could rapidly expand. Some may say to just quit and go now, and some may do that, but in order to create enough openings AA would have to cease operations, otherwise AA would have a cost advantage that would simply drag other carriers, and their workers down.

Of course the older you are the harder it would be to recover but even at 50 you could make out better if AA liquidated vs accepting what they are proposing. At around a $23,000 year difference if you got in 10 years at top pay you would make around $230,000 more. Of course if you were lucky enough to land at WN or UPS it could be much more than that.

What the company is proposing is a job but the end of any hopes of looking at this as a career. We keep our tools on wheels for a reason, we may need to roll them out the door if we want to still have any hopes of having a career in this industry.

 

[Bob Owens]

No I can definitely say I have never negotiated a concessionary agreement.

No you just promote them.

 

[strikeforce]

Ok so we can put you on record as saying that WN has 500 mechanics in Overhaul?

WN makes over $40, more like $46, plus all the VC, Holidays, sick etc . AA is looking to cut heads on the line, over 400, take away another week of VC, take away the MRT and pay just $32.77. More than $10/hr less.

How about doing the math comparing the company ASK to a legacy carrier that went through BK such as UA? This Summer they top out at $38.08, we would be getting $32.77, base guys even less. They also have Double Time, 10 Holidays at 2.5X, more vacation, more than double the sick time, yes they get charged for a whole day even though they get paid 75% but AA wants us to get charged a whole day for 60% pay but UAL gets 12 days a year and we only get 5.

The fact is when you add it all in we are already dead last, and the company wants to sink us even further down. We already lag industry average (which we drag down) by around $8/hr counting HW and VC. Using the same assumptions the company uses by 2018 that gap would increase to around $11/hr.

If the only way that AA can survive is by paying us $11/hr below "industry" average (or around $20/hr less than industry leading) then perhaps over the longer term its in our best interests that AA not survive.

There is no doubt that should AA liquidate it would be a traumatic event for most of us, however if this is what we can expect from AA as a future then in reality the survival of AA could in fact be the worst case scenario, especially for those of us in high cost areas. If AA gets what they want and survives not only would we be making much less than we are now in real dollars but we would drag down the industry, thus limiting prospects outside of AA within the industry.Competitors will poiint across the ramp and say "how can I compete when they pay their workers $11/hr less?" As we have seen with EAL and other carriers when one carrier ceases to exist and vacates the market, others expand, and when they do they pick up the workers from the defunct carrier. All those people that get jamed onto AA planes arent going to just stay home and the owners arent going to let their assett sit idle. Does anyone think that NY, MIA and LAX thrive because of AA or that if AA ceases to exist those facilities wil go unused? By 2018 those of us who stay in the industry would be back at top pay but instead of getting at the most $34.89, which is what AA ios offering, we could expect at least $42.60/hr. Of course we would need for AA to liquidate so the others could rapidly expand. Some may say to just quit and go now, and some may do that, but in order to create enough openings AA would have to cease operations, otherwise AA would have a cost advantage that would simply drag other carriers, and their workers down.

Of course the older you are the harder it would be to recover but even at 50 you could make out better if AA liquidated vs accepting what they are proposing. At around a $23,000 year difference if you got in 10 years at top pay you would make around $230,000 more. Of course if you were lucky enough to land at WN or UPS it could be much more than that.

What the company is proposing is a job but the end of any hopes of looking at this as a career. We keep our tools on wheels for a reason, we may need to roll them out the door if we want to still have any hopes of having a career in this industry.

The problem with you're theory is that the TWU will never allow our amt's to be the highest paid in the industry at the expense of losing thousands of JOBS! For the TWU, it's JOBS, JOBS, JOBS.....and for guys that care about the profession it's PAY, PAY, PAY! Unfortunately for us you're only a witness at these negotiations, and jobs will trump pay. And, that's what you get when you belong to an industrialized union instead of a craft union.

 

[Bob Owens]

The IFE systems I'm talking about are the MUX & powerports on the line. On any given night avionics is dealing with cabin audio issues or powerports. OH happens to be the target by AA to either compete against the MRO's or farm it out. They're just streamlining some jobs on the line.

OH is the target because thats where the most workers(votes) are. The company may say they want to outsource 50% but I think they want the ability to outsource 50%. Sometimes having the ability to do something can get you better results than actually doing it. I beleive they will outsouce the stuff thats not economical but what they really want is to be able to use the threat of outsourcing to increase in house productivity.

 

[strikeforce]

OH is the target because thats where the most workers(votes) are. The company may say they want to outsource 50% but I think they want the ability to outsource 50%. Sometimes having the ability to do something can get you better results than actually doing it. I beleive they will outsouce the stuff thats not economical but what they really want is to be able to use the threat of outsourcing to increase in house productivity.

Yes it's a threat to increase productivity, but I also believe it's to muscle the union into lowering the overall wages in OH. And, at the same time keep the line pay much lower than other carriers. A win-win for the company. This will no doubt put lots of pressure on other carriers to lower their costs in the future. I was saying this in an earlier thread that if I was a WN mechanic I wouldn't be too happy with this outcome for AA mechanics because they're next!

I also believe AA will get more than the 40% ability to outsource in binding arbitration. Say they get 60% or 70%, what's the union willing to give up to save those additional jobs that AA will THREATEN to layoff. No doubt PAY will be given up. That's my opinion.

 

[eolesen]

To Bob's point that "cheaper isn't always cheaper" you also have to consider that more expensive isn't always better.

Ok so we can put you on record as saying that WN has 500 mechanics in Overhaul?
/quote]

Love Field is also a fairly busy station, so is that 500 mechanic figure just for the hangars, or is it split between line and base?? How many line mechanics would they staff for a 200 flight operation?

Knowing WN, they probably don't even separate the two as widely as AA seems to... Need someone over on the line to deal with something? Steal someone from the hangars... Good luck trying that at DFW. You'd have a line at the grievance office.

 

[Duke787]

It's not on their wish list because it's rubbish. A WN mechanic doing the same thing I do on a 737 is making over $40 an hour. The only ones bleeding this compAAny are the ones running it.

SWA has about a total of 1500 mechs, there's about 3900 in TUL alone, and they work a 24/7 schedule.

 

[Mr Red]

SWA has about a total of 1500 mechs, there's about 3900 in TUL alone, and they work a 24/7 schedule.

Southwest and Airtran Mechanics total 2000

 

[Rogallo]

No I can definitely say I have never negotiated a concessionary agreement.

So your not a negotiater. What is your title within the TWU?

 

[FWAAA]

SWA has about a total of 1500 mechs, there's about 3900 in TUL alone, and they work a 24/7 schedule.

WN had 2,464 maintenance personnel as of 12/31/10 (not counting Airtran). As of 12/31/11, WN had 3,135 maintenance personnel (including Airtran). At 12/31/11, WN had 698 airplanes (737s and 717s).

Many posters have mentioned the "three lines" that WN maintains at DAL, but are they really performing D checks? WN has consistently told the world the answer is "no." From the Southwest 10-K:

The cost of scheduled inspections and repairs and routine maintenance costs for all aircraft and engines are
charged to Maintenance materials and repairs expense as incurred. The Company has “power-by-the-hour”
agreements related to virtually all of its aircraft engines with an external service provider. Under these
agreements, which the Company has determined effectively transfer the risk associated with the maintenance on
such engines to the counterparty, expense is recorded commensurate with each hour flown on an engine.

So no engine overhauls - outside vendors do all that work. What about heavy airframe overhaul? Here's what WN says:

The Company performs substantially all line maintenance on its aircraft and provides ground support services at most of the airports it serves. However, the Company has arrangements with certain aircraft maintenance firms for major component inspections and repairs for its airframes and engines, which comprise the majority of the Company’s annual aircraft maintenance costs.

So WN performs "substantially all line maintenance" in-house, but "major compenent inspections and repairs for its airframes" looks to me like the D checks are outsourced. A, B and C checks may be "line maintenance" but a D check (what AA calls a Heavy C check) would likely be "major component inspections and repairs for airframes."

 

[Overspeed]

The IFE systems I'm talking about are the MUX & powerports on the line. On any given night avionics is dealing with cabin audio issues or powerports. OH happens to be the target by AA to either compete against the MRO's or farm it out. They're just streamlining some jobs on the line.

Why would the union entertain binding arbitration if they know most carriers outsource more than the 40% AA wants to outsource??? Why place additional jobs at risk?? Probably the only good thing about BA is that there's a good chance most will see a pay raise, more holidays at 2x, sick time at full pay, and maybe some pay related goodies. And, that's only going to happen if the arbitration panel rules strictly on industry standards, which they most likely won't with a carrier in bankruptcy. I don't believe the NMB will stick there neck out and reward the unions with some gains, while harming the company. No different than the BK judge ruling in favor of the unions while killing the golden goose. I just don't see the benefit of BA.

Most power port problems also have to do with the crappy wiring connectors under the seat. 99% of the problems have to do with the connector becoming unplugged. The rest are the power supply.

Why would the union entertain binding arbitration? Arbitration is more informal and takes the creditors committee out of the process. My bet is that binding arbitration won't happen. Too late for that in my opinion. The creditors and Wall Street want a big cost cutting number. In their view, binding arbitration is not going to be brutal enough.