TWU negotiations.........what?

[AA89]

The airplanes being overhauled at AFW may not be disappearing in bankruptcy, but I'd say the equivalent of AFW's capacity has already left or is scheduled to leave the fleet.

Here are a few snapshots in time for you....

Year        2011   2008   2003   2001   1999
AA Fleet     608    626    770    881    697
Eagle Fleet  299    266    271    276    268
                         
Widebody     120    146    153    161    155
Narrowbody   488    480    617    720    542

(I included the Eagle numbers to refute the oft-repeated argument that Eagle grew at AA's expense -- their fleet size has been relatively flat up until the last CR7 order for 20 aircraft)

Overall, from 1999 when AA only had 2 overhaul bases, AA's got 89 fewer aircraft, and 35 fewer widebodies (essentially, the entire A300 fleet).

I haven't tried to map out the deliveries and retirements yet because until the S1110 process is done, there's not much point.

Looking at the current fleet, there are about 200 MD80 + 121 B757 + 15 B762's (total 336) that I'd expect to see retired.

There are firm orders for 135 738's and 130 A320's, which would cover the MD80's and then a mix of the other two fleets. If the company exercises options, they'd be able to retire all three fleets plus growth aircraft, or possibly retiring some of the Y2000 vintage B738's at the end of the program, at which point they'd be close to 20 years old.

All in all, I wouldn't expect to see the AA fleet being mich above 650-700 by the time all is said and done, which again, is getting you to the 1999 fleet.

Assuming that all widebodies are outsourced, that leaves about 550 aircraft to maintain with TUL, which seems entirely doable.
[/quote
The need for AFW was the point in the first place after you stated that the work at AFW wasn't required anymore. Assuming the widebodies are outsourced then this is all meaningless. If not, and the work on existing aircraft and the newer ones would have to be done at AFW or Tulsa. I haven't been to Tulsa in 22 years and I don't know if there is enough widebody capacity there for present needs or future but I don't think so. So it is up to AFW to prove its worth. Thus the ad in Sunday's paper.
Aircraft numbers tell some of the story but so does age and airframe time determine overhaul needs. I think a combination of the 3 would be a better snapshot of what was required in the past, is required now, and what will be required in the future..
I don't have my head in the sand about what we are facing with a new fleet but both bases have had work fluctuaute over the years with fleet changes. If the company wants to follow the other airlines and outsource widebody work they will do it no matter if it makes good business sense or not. I would say they have as much outsourceitis as anyone here as not my stationitis.

 

[TWU informer]

Once three full shifts and 7 day coverage is implemented in Tulsa, there is more than enough capacity. I know everyone wants to feel important and that AA cannot replace them or their work area. But when the facts are laid out on the table, that just simply is not the case.

Now everyone can once again begin calling me names and claiming it's all about me. But that will not alter the facts in the end.

You can thank the Line AMT's for the weekends off in Tulsa complaining for helping us all out by getting this brought to management attention. Tulsa will now be more effecient.

 

[737823]

From what I hear from guys at Delta, and some who left, is that they would like to have a union but they would not pick one that got their members lower pay and less benefits than they have/had.

Delta Gets 7 sick days, 10 holidays at 2x or they can take a Comp day, they get a week more vacation than we do for the first 25 years but they can also cash in unused sick time for an additional week, giving them 80 hours more vacation, and they currently max out at $37.43 and are due a raise this Summer.

Nobody else in the industry only gets 5 holidays and nobody else only gets 1.5x for working, they either get Double or 2.5X, even the non-union ones. Even non-union workers at AA get doubletime or a comp day and 10 Holidays.

The Holiday concession cost line guys 100 hours pay per year compared to what we used to get.

Again, maybe the membership would rather go non-union. As you've posted before, your non-union counterparts at JetBlue and Delta earn more without representation. The overall cost they impose maybe lower through work rules and cross training to maximize productivity,

Josh

 

[dfw gen]

Already there dude, I am a Crew Chief, I weld very little, and meet daily with management to help out anyway I can. I take pride in my job, my skill, and the fact that turntimes are constantly reduced as a result of my actions. What would really stick in your eye would be to know that I am a Crew Chief over 3 A&P licensed AMT's in addition to the welders in my area. Call the shop next week and ask their opinion of me since only someone with an A&P would you believe or trust. PM me I will give you their names and the shop phone number to call.

And in contrast you are such a strong union man, willing to give anything you have to keep your co-workers happy and wealthy, share the wealth is your motto. I bet you are such a sharing and charitable man that there are no poor within a 200 mile radius of your presence. You give so much of what you have to others that charities selldom need more where you live. You worry about others more than yourself.
And that makes you a better man than me, plus you are far more skilled and smarter than me, I am your subordinate, so please tell me or show me the way so I might learn and be more like you. Even though I am not worthy to even post on the same forum as you, please forgive me as I ask for your guidance and wisdom.

I will begin a nightly prayer than I might learn from you as you share with us daily examples of how to give what you have to others so as to not be called an IGM ignorant OKIE welder. Don't hold back now, begin sharing examples of how it should done starting this evening.


i get the picture informer your a saint!

 

[AA89]

Once three full shifts and 7 day coverage is implemented in Tulsa, there is more than enough capacity. I know everyone wants to feel important and that AA cannot replace them or their work area. But when the facts are laid out on the table, that just simply is not the case.

Now everyone can once again begin calling me names and claiming it's all about me. But that will not alter the facts in the end.

You can thank the Line AMT's for the weekends off in Tulsa complaining for helping us all out by getting this brought to management attention. Tulsa will now be more effecient.

I know we can beat this dead horse forever but just for the sake of discussion: Aren't the hangars already working mids? And if so Is there enough widebody space in Tulsa if you just add weekends to the capacity. I know most of the hangar space when I was there was narrowbody except for the new Scarebus hangar.
I don't think the company has laid the facts on the table. They are just playing follow the leader through bankruptcy. And with that kind of thinking we can all be replaced whether we feel important or not.

 

[texasreb]

Once three full shifts and 7 day coverage is implemented in Tulsa, there is more than enough capacity. I know everyone wants to feel important and that AA cannot replace them or their work area. But when the facts are laid out on the table, that just simply is not the case.

Now everyone can once again begin calling me names and claiming it's all about me. But that will not alter the facts in the end.

You can thank the Line AMT's for the weekends off in Tulsa complaining for helping us all out by getting this brought to management attention. Tulsa will now be more effecient.

Tulsa already had their shot with the 777 and failed. This is the reason it was returned to AFW.

 

[Buck]

Tulsa already had their shot with the 777 and failed. This is the reason it was returned to AFW.

Unless your Representative on the creditors committee can convince the company to leave AFW open, then I guess the only way to make the 777 viable is for one of two things to happen.

 

[Overspeed]

Good point. Those that believe that outsourced maintenance is ok for the TUL base or that 40% OSM's is ok, so that the line can get the magic $50/hr , would take advantage of such a situation and against their fellow TWU brothers and sisters.

Wouldn't labor loaning be more agreeable to lowering costs than more OSMs?

 

[Buck]

Wouldn't labor loaning be more agreeable to lowering costs than more OSMs?

Of course, but I believe the vision in TUL is to have all of the narrow body docks full of 737's, at least until; the Airbus aircraft arrive. That is to say that all the hangars full with 40% OSM's.

You have to remember that these decisions to reduce the work force, are not made with the maintaining of aircraft in mind. The decisions are made in a cubicle somewhere by someone who has never seen an aircraft in overhaul. Funny that you mention labor loans. On 1D this last month, the mechanics from 2D were labor loaned to a 7 day coverage dock and stayed on 5/8's. But morale was high.....

 

[Overspeed]

Of course, but I believe the vision in TUL is to have all of the narrow body docks full of 737's, at least until; the Airbus aircraft arrive. That is to say that all the hangars full with 40% OSM's.

You have to remember that these decisions to reduce the work force, are not made with the maintaining of aircraft in mind. The decisions are made in a cubicle somewhere by someone who has never seen an aircraft in overhaul. Funny that you mention labor loans. On 1D this last month, the mechanics from 2D were labor loaned to a 7 day coverage dock and stayed on 5/8's. But morale was high.....

But the labor loan or any other idea would take time right? Even outsourcing would take time so couldn't you attrit out the HC over 12 to 18 months and mitigate with some kind of early out or special severance?

 

[TWU informer]

#1 Significant Early out Retirement Option - Keeping ccurrent retirement medical should be sufficient, with a 15 month window.

#2 Allow currently employees to remain at current payscales and pay premiums

#3 Allow for less license pay/requirement in overhaul for new employees upgrading or hiring into overhaul. Only paying for license required by the Q.A.M.. New or recalled employess only. AA will be able to change Q.A.M. License Requirements, grandfathering current employees into their current status.

#4 New hires will be on new payscale and health plans that wiil allow a transition to MRO payrates/cost for overhaul.

#5 Line pay will then be transitioned to market rates of pay for that work duty.

#6 Hard Freeze the M&R pensions but do not terminate them. All employees transfer to 401K Match.

#7 Allow Overhaul to have an independent profit sharing plan from 3rd party work.

#8 Allow Line to have their own independent profit sharing plan from their 3rd party work.

#9 Both Independent Profit Sharing Plans for 3rd Party Maintenance will be in addition to the new company wide profit sharing plans.

#10 Create an independent review panel to insure proper calculations of 3rd party profits/cost outs.

#11 Recall of RIF's employees will be into new payscales and options, allowing current OSM's to come into full overhaul Maintenance.

#12 Create apprentice type of program to allow all employees without license to get their certificates via experience recognition. Include tuition and license testing reimbursement. This will crreate a new pool of employees that may want to transfer and move to the line stations for the higher pay. Or later advance to Crew Chief/Inspector positions in overhaul.

#13 Allow for full overhaul base 7 day coverage and shift work. Implementing a Bid Shift/Bid Days Off by seniority. This will prevent 20+ year employees from involuntarily being placed in undesireable shift and days off work. New and/or recalled employees will be informed in advance and placed into undesireable shift/days off schedules.


Reasoning, early out will create openings for hire and lower average cost. The more that hired, the more average cost drops.
Line and Overhaul will no longer be on the same payscale, but transfer and seniority list will remain together. Qualifications requires to bump, upgrade, or transfer. As older employees retire, the cost of overhaul reduces.

 

[Duke787]

The TWU shouldn't be concerned with head count, the TWU should be concerned with pay and health benefits, and that's it. AA should be left to worry about the head count, it's their operation.

 

[Duke787]

Good point. Those that believe that outsourced maintenance is ok for the TUL base or that 40% OSM's is ok, so that the line can get the magic $50/hr , would take advantage of such a situation and against their fellow TWU brothers and sisters.

We have plenty of guys working in the line stations that use to work at TUL, and we know what the thought process is there, and it certianly isn't a whole lot of union brotherly love for the line mechanics. It's more like "if they don't like it transfer to TUL"


I believe the line would be willing to accept the market rate of $40 an hour right now, TUL should get use to this saying "if you don't like it transfer to a line station"

 

[TWU informer]

We have plenty of guys working in the line stations that use to work at TUL, and we know what the thought process is there, and it certianly isn't a whole lot of union brotherly love for the line mechanics. It's more like "if they don't like it transfer to TUL"


I believe the line would be willing to accept the market rate of $40 an hour right now, TUL should get use to this saying "if you don't like it transfer to a line station"

IGM "BROTHER"

 

[Buck]

We have plenty of guys working in the line stations that use to work at TUL, and we know what the thought process is there, and it certianly isn't a whole lot of union brotherly love for the line mechanics. It's more like "if they don't like it transfer to TUL"


I believe the line would be willing to accept the market rate of $40 an hour right now, TUL should get use to this saying "if you don't like it transfer to a line station"

Well you don't know everyone's thought process. I have no problem with the line making as much as they can. In fact if the line had any they would attempt a duty of fair representation process. Even if there were no chance at winning. You are correct about one thing, if you are waiting on Fahrenheit 514 to help you your going to wait a long time.

You assume that all of TUL is against the line, which is simply not true. What I would like to see is a line maintenance attempt at a replacement union drive. You guys get your majority and then we will see what happens. It shouldn't take long to achieve 100%.

Find a solution to the major obstacle to replacing the TWU and you will be there. If you keep pushing for a wage separation from the AMT's at TUL, separation is what you will get.