TWU negotiations.........what?

[Overspeed]

You are saying that the workers at AFW are less productive than elsewhere?

I will ask for your proof of that and that the OT is record setting.

And then I will remind you that OT is cheap labor for the company and let you figure out why.

Not less productive, higher cost than budget.

I saw the OT reports in my station's finance office. DFW is smoking too on OT so don't take it personal.

OT is cheap to a point ad we have long sense passed that. And remember, the comparison is to other MROs. They pay much less with lower benefits. NPR quoted AAR starting pay as $15 an hour so at 2X the AAR guy is still cheaper for like work. Unless AA can turn the plane faster and deliver better quality we are in trouble. I will say that the TIMCO debacle may make AA rethink the outsourcing and try some inhouse stuff first, I hope.

 

[Buck]

That's a NO! Profit margins on line MX are slim, the real money is not in LC or HC either. It's higher skill work or high volume work. AA could make money in areas like landing gear, engines, and components if they could figure out how to bill people. Don't get me wrong, there is high skill work in airframe and line but that is in the non-routine type work like structure repairs or troubleshooting systems on the line. Most of us know the repetitive work pretty well, its the nonstandard stuff is where you see the value of a quality AMT.

As it stands now, there are areas where AA could offset the cost of the line operation by doing some on-call where it makes sense and maybe signing some nose to tail agreements like we did with the HAL DC10s but as a whole, no line has a long way to go before it becomes a profit center.

Ok to be a d**k for a moment, maybe the line would be a better target for outsourcing. AFW appears to be an efficient and possible a profit center. If someone actually knew the monthly or the annual cost, the maintenance group at AFW must overcome.

TASEL on the other hand is either profitable or cannot be replicated within the company's venue.

If AFW is a profit center then maybe the union can convince the company how valuable it could be.

I cannot believe that the governing bodies of Oklahoma and the City of Tulsa can offer more than Texas and Fort Worth to offset the requirements to keep the maintenance bases open. Their must be more to the equation.

 

[Buck]

Think of the whole thing end to end.

If you produce at 101% but at 150% of the labor cost (OT) as the outside MRO that is not cost effective. The only way to offset that higher cost is if you turn the plane way faster and can generate enough revenue to outweigh the higher cost and deliver better than the outside MRO quality. That is where the line comes in. If the line take planes OTS for things they could fix on the gate or turn faster then all the faster turn times delivered by the base are then squandered by the line.

But according to Bob and Chuck we walk on water on the line.

This is also where the Field Trip comes in. If the line will not work an OTS, then are the TIMCO's of the world going to be available to repair the aircraft outside of their comfort zone?

And as I indicated before if the compensation is to much of a difference, everyone will remove.themselvesfrom the list.

 

[eolesen]

How many airplanes did AA have in 03, how many now, and how many will we have when this order is complete?

The airplanes being overhauled at AFW aren't disappearing in bankruptcy and the new airplanes that replace them as they are retired work will need to be overhauled somewhere. How is that work not required anymore? AA will have plenty of need for widebody overhaul in the future. AFW has that capacity.

The airplanes being overhauled at AFW may not be disappearing in bankruptcy, but I'd say the equivalent of AFW's capacity has already left or is scheduled to leave the fleet.

Here are a few snapshots in time for you....

Year        2011   2008   2003   2001   1999
AA Fleet     608    626    770    881    697
Eagle Fleet  299    266    271    276    268
                         
Widebody     120    146    153    161    155
Narrowbody   488    480    617    720    542

(I included the Eagle numbers to refute the oft-repeated argument that Eagle grew at AA's expense -- their fleet size has been relatively flat up until the last CR7 order for 20 aircraft)

Overall, from 1999 when AA only had 2 overhaul bases, AA's got 89 fewer aircraft, and 35 fewer widebodies (essentially, the entire A300 fleet).

I haven't tried to map out the deliveries and retirements yet because until the S1110 process is done, there's not much point.

Looking at the current fleet, there are about 200 MD80 + 121 B757 + 15 B762's (total 336) that I'd expect to see retired.

There are firm orders for 135 738's and 130 A320's, which would cover the MD80's and then a mix of the other two fleets. If the company exercises options, they'd be able to retire all three fleets plus growth aircraft, or possibly retiring some of the Y2000 vintage B738's at the end of the program, at which point they'd be close to 20 years old.

All in all, I wouldn't expect to see the AA fleet being mich above 650-700 by the time all is said and done, which again, is getting you to the 1999 fleet.

Assuming that all widebodies are outsourced, that leaves about 550 aircraft to maintain with TUL, which seems entirely doable.

 

[FWAAA]

Assuming that all widebodies are outsourced, that leaves about 550 aircraft to maintain with TUL, which seems entirely doable.

Agree completely. In addition, since the new narrowbodies won't need a heavy C check for their first five or six years, that's five or six years during which the Aeromans of the western hemisphere could expand in preparation for increasing outsourcing of the narrowbody fleet. Even if Bob Owens is correct that the world's MROs may not be prepared to perform much maintenance for AA today, things could be very different in five or six years . . .

 

[767 mechanic]

Ok to be a d**k for a moment, maybe the line would be a better target for outsourcing. AFW appears to be an efficient and possible a profit center. If someone actually knew the monthly or the annual cost, the maintenance group at AFW must overcome.

TASEL on the other hand is either profitable or cannot be replicated within the company's venue.

If AFW is a profit center then maybe the union can convince the company how valuable it could be.

I cannot believe that the governing bodies of Oklahoma and the City of Tulsa can offer more than Texas and Fort Worth to offset the requirements to keep the maintenance bases open. Their must be more to the equation.

I don't know what the numbers are at this time,but from 2002 to about 2007 AFW was running a head count of 89 on the 777 line and 97 to 105 on the 767 lines heavy and light with virtually no o/t. This is fact. The way I understand it,the pulse line in Tulsa was running 140 per line during this time with all the o/t that you could work. This came from a mechanic on 3b or 3c,can't remember which he worked on. The way I understand it,the head count was inflated due to the 2025 vision plan that required a min head count in Tulsa. In order to keep the head count system wide at what the company wanted they had to short the rest of the system. Before anybody starts throwing stones,I'm not being critical of Tulsa. Just telling the facts about head count and o/t at AFW.

 

[Buck]

My opinion and mine alone, is that the pulse lime never reached a twelve day check. When you don't start counting days in a check until day zero or open up the mid shift before the first day, the count is already one day behind. I have not worked there in about 3 years, but my understanding is they are now 16 day checks. I believe I heard the same about 2025.

Now the plan is to increase the 737's and if necessary grab labor from the MD80 group.

 

[AA89]

Not less productive, higher cost than budget.

I saw the OT reports in my station's finance office. DFW is smoking too on OT so don't take it personal.

OT is cheap to a point ad we have long sense passed that. And remember, the comparison is to other MROs. They pay much less with lower benefits. NPR quoted AAR starting pay as $15 an hour so at 2X the AAR guy is still cheaper for like work. Unless AA can turn the plane faster and deliver better quality we are in trouble. I will say that the TIMCO debacle may make AA rethink the outsourcing and try some inhouse stuff first, I hope.

Nah nothing personal. Just please share the headcount and workload reports too. Until then it's just like the other guys on here that want to slam the union's attempt to counter the company's assault on us. If you pay attention to my posts I am no fan of our union but I believe they did the right thing with the ad.

It is no mystery that MRO's pay and benefits are less than ours and I would assume that they require more than what a guy feels like doing during the day as far as production. But any of us that have ever been around an MRO and contract work know that side of it and as we saw with Timco it can be ugly. That $15 an hour at AAR was for a guy with little experience and I'll bet they get what they pay for with it.
I doubt any of this matters to Horton and the gang and I doubt the Timco did anything to change that. Like you I hope I am wrong about that.

 

[Buck]

And what is the equivalent MRO compensation for line maintenance?

It is easy to draw conclusions for compensation for overhaul, however I have yet to see the low end for line maintenance.

Maybe Danny Martinez could explain this ?

 

[AA89]

Ok to be a d**k for a moment, maybe the line would be a better target for outsourcing. AFW appears to be an efficient and possible a profit center. If someone actually knew the monthly or the annual cost, the maintenance group at AFW must overcome.

TASEL on the other hand is either profitable or cannot be replicated within the company's venue.

If AFW is a profit center then maybe the union can convince the company how valuable it could be.

I cannot believe that the governing bodies of Oklahoma and the City of Tulsa can offer more than Texas and Fort Worth to offset the requirements to keep the maintenance bases open. Their must be more to the equation.

TAESL has made money in the past but never more than a few million a year from what I have seen. There have been years it lost money too. The building is full and last week it was rumored that Emirates is close to signing a contract for 18 Trents. The saving grace for TAESL is the fact that Rolls Royce needs the facility/test cell capacity. Whether that includes AA mechanics is yet to be determined.
I think AFW is small potatoes to Ft Worth compared to what TULE is to Tulsa so Ft Worth isnt as motivated it seems. They may also have another tenant lined up. Hard to say.

 

[Vortilon]

Contract line maintenance outfits like Jet Pro and TIMCO typically start their people out in the low twenties per hour with modest benefits. Those companies bill the labor out at over $50.00 per hour with many charging a minimum of two hour per call out. These outfits are bare bones - just winging it type. The employees are not there to make a career out of it - just biding their time till they can secure a real job.

 

[Birdman]

Even if Bob Owens is correct that the world's MROs may not be prepared to perform much maintenance for AA today, things could be very different in five or six years . . .

Why do you think AA wants a 6 year contract? Every other airline will have been through one or two more contract cycles by then and who knows what damage will have been done by what AA is able to accomplish in BK now. For reasons I've previously stated I still believe there is a minimum threshold AA will outsource o/h that may end up above industry standard.

 

[Overspeed]

Contract line maintenance outfits like Jet Pro and TIMCO typically start their people out in the low twenties per hour with modest benefits. Those companies bill the labor out at over $50.00 per hour with many charging a minimum of two hour per call out. These outfits are bare bones - just winging it type. The employees are not there to make a career out of it - just biding their time till they can secure a real job.

Most of the contract outfits hire as part time as well and you get crappy schedules. Usually split shifts quite often which is why they like the airline AMTs looking to pick up a few extra hours per week to make ends meet. It's the AA line AMTs who work those second jobs that concern me. If AA does seek to outsource some line work, will these part time AA AMTs pick up the extra hours at the contract line outfit for $20 an hour to work on AA aircraft?

 

[Buck]

Good point. Those that believe that outsourced maintenance is ok for the TUL base or that 40% OSM's is ok, so that the line can get the magic $50/hr , would take advantage of such a situation and against their fellow TWU brothers and sisters.

 

[TWU informer]

Informer has been whining and crying forever trying to mask his complete IGM attitude. It will never end until the day his BBQ bologna-eating redneck arse is stuck in a Okie machine shop welding very little and kissing up to his boss a whole lot. I find his rants very entertaining. Somethings are just so stupid they are funny.

Already there dude, I am a Crew Chief, I weld very little, and meet daily with management to help out anyway I can. I take pride in my job, my skill, and the fact that turntimes are constantly reduced as a result of my actions. What would really stick in your eye would be to know that I am a Crew Chief over 3 A&P licensed AMT's in addition to the welders in my area. Call the shop next week and ask their opinion of me since only someone with an A&P would you believe or trust. PM me I will give you their names and the shop phone number to call.

And in contrast you are such a strong union man, willing to give anything you have to keep your co-workers happy and wealthy, share the wealth is your motto. I bet you are such a sharing and charitable man that there are no poor within a 200 mile radius of your presence. You give so much of what you have to others that charities selldom need more where you live. You worry about others more than yourself.
And that makes you a better man than me, plus you are far more skilled and smarter than me, I am your subordinate, so please tell me or show me the way so I might learn and be more like you. Even though I am not worthy to even post on the same forum as you, please forgive me as I ask for your guidance and wisdom.

I will begin a nightly prayer than I might learn from you as you share with us daily examples of how to give what you have to others so as to not be called an IGM ignorant OKIE welder. Don't hold back now, begin sharing examples of how it should done starting this evening.