TWU negotiations.........what?

[787nightmare]

I believe the major differences being the defining regs in FAR 14CFR 43.7....
For a person to declare a part, component, engine or airplane for return to service, he/she MUST possess an a/p license. Look it up.

I'm pretty sure AA wishes for it's line mechanics to have in there possession at all times, an a/p license. Anything else is a moot point.

 

[xUT]

I believe the major differences being the defining regs in FAR 14CFR 43.7....
For a person to declare a part, component, engine or airplane for return to service, he/she MUST possess an a/p license. Look it up.

I'm pretty sure AA wishes for it's line mechanics to have in there possession at all times, an a/p license. Anything else is a moot point.

Don't think so.
Do all of your Avionics and Component mechanics have an A&P?
No, but yet they sign a return to service tag and/or an 8130.
Take a 4 hour return to service class and pass with 70% and you are good to go.
B) xUT

 

[Mr Red]

Don't think so.
Do all of your Avionics and Component mechanics have an A&P?
No, but yet they sign a return to service tag and/or an 8130.
Take a 4 hour return to service class and pass with 70% and you are good to go.
B) xUT

Bottom line NO A/P, NO LINE WORK.If you can work the whole airlpane including avionics,all training up to date,we can use you .

 

[blue collar]

You need an a&p to sign off an airworthiness release. The repairmen signing off mx releases is whatever falls under the airline's mx program that had to be approved by the FAA.

 

[Vortilon]

Don't think so.
Do all of your Avionics and Component mechanics have an A&P?
No, but yet they sign a return to service tag and/or an 8130.
Take a 4 hour return to service class and pass with 70% and you are good to go.
B) xUT

On the line, yes all will have an A&P. In a component shop in Tulsa - well, now they would be under the repair station certificate. There, the repairman would do the work -then his crew chief would do the check out or inspection, and sign for it as well.

 

[FWAAA]

Even airlines that have outsourced most (or all) of their heavy C checks (typically referred to by those airlines as D checks) probably employ an unlicensed welder or two. After all, airplanes contain a lot of metal and I assume some of it is welded to other pieces of metal and those welded repairs aren't performed solely or exclusively during heavy C checks. There may be other times when welds are performed. Accordingly, there will probably be a place somewhere in the system for an unlicensed welder going forward regardless of AA's level of heavy check outsourcing.

 

[Buck]

At what point does the FAA allow for repair work, not logbook, to be preformed under the companies certificate?

 

[strikeforce]

What's the point here with all this back & forth about the A&P on the Line????

If we're talking rif's......in order to bump a line mechanic you need the A&P and you need to pass the A25 for general line or A30 for the avionics shop. The tests are in the QAM. It's not so difficult people!

 

[Buck]

What's the point here with all this back & forth about the A&P on the Line????

If we're talking rif's......in order to bump a line mechanic you need the A&P and you need to pass the A25 for general line or A30 for the avionics shop. The tests are in the QAM. It's not so difficult people!

I know it is not difficult, I know where everything is at. However there are those who do not. Thanks for the information. The point is that a license is not required at the maintenance base(s). The work can be performed under the carriers certificate. I am pretty sure that to maintain the revenue stream to the TWU International, mechanics of all types will be allowed to use their seniority if the company allows it.

Aviation Week

Q. What is the difference between an FAA certificate and a license?
A. No difference. The FAA mechanic certificate ate is frequently referred to as a license.

Q. Must I have an FAA mechanic certificate to get a job as an airline mechanic?
A. No. Possession of an FAA mechanic certificate for employment by an air carrier is not a
requirement of the Federal Aviation Regulations. It is often used by the air carriers as one of
several hiring requirements.

Q. Can I work as an aviation mechanic without being certificated?
A. Yes, providing you work under the supervision of a certificated person and do not release
aircraft to service.

Q. Must I hold a mechanic certificate to work in a certificated repair station?
A. No.




Line maintenance, long considered the last bastion against the accelerating trend to outsource maintenance, now appears to be fast tracked in the direction of third-party vendors. It is easy to see why.

According to BACK Aviation Solutions and TeamSAI, line maintenance accounts for $8.9 billion, or 23 percent, of the $38 billion worldwide commercial jet transport MRO market (see O&M, April 2005, p. 58 for complete forecast).

"This means that, on average, about 23 percent of an airline's maintenance cost is devoted to line work," said Steve Casley, managing director at BACK. "With cost reductions the primary focus in the post-9/11 world, it's only logical that line service will be the next segment of maintenance to be more commonly outsourced."

However, line maintenance is the most difficult aspect of maintenance to outsource because it directly impacts day-of-flight operations, said Casley. Historically, line maintenance only has been contracted out by airlines operating too few flights at specific locations to justify their own on-site line service capability. "In those cases, the work went mostly to other airlines which did line maintenance at those airports. But with airline service cutbacks at many airports, independent MRO providers, who forged relationships with airlines on engine repairs and airframe overhauls, are seeing the opportunity to leverage those relationships into line work," said Casley.

One example is TIMCO Aviation Services, the Greensboro, N.C.-based heavy maintenance specialist that moved into line work two years ago.

"We saw line maintenance outsourcing as a paradigm shift and as a growth opportunity," said Jack Arehart, the company's senior vice president, business development. "Many carriers still view line work as a part of their branding and integral to their service. But as they see the MRO industry provide the service at lower cost, and other carriers taking advantage of it, they will look seriously at outsourcing line work to quality third-party providers."

TIMCO currently provides line maintenance at nine U.S. airports. At eight of those locations, it took over line services from a major carrier. Other customers include low-cost carriers and start-ups that have contracted out line work from the start, said Arehart. In addition to on-call line services, TIMCO also provides overnight checks at some of its locations. "Under some of our line service contracts, we will get multiple airplanes of a specific fleet type for scheduled overnight checks. The checks include specified log book items that need servicing or repairs, as well as work listed on special task cards such as the removal and replacement of time-limited components," he said.

According to Arehart, companies that already offer heavy maintenance and checks will have a competitive advantage when entering the line maintenance field because of their work force and because of the changing nature of line maintenance. "At one time, an overnight line check might include little more than changing a tire or a brake. Now, it encompasses more work that was done during a heavy check."

 

[amt66]

I know it is not difficult, I know where everything is at. However there are those who do not. Thanks for the information. The point is that a license is not required at the maintenance base(s). The work can be performed under the carriers certificate. I am pretty sure that to maintain the revenue stream to the TWU International, mechanics of all types will be allowed to use their seniority if the company allows it.

Aviation Week

Q. What is the difference between an FAA certificate and a license?
A. No difference. The FAA mechanic certificate ate is frequently referred to as a license.

Q. Must I have an FAA mechanic certificate to get a job as an airline mechanic?
A. No. Possession of an FAA mechanic certificate for employment by an air carrier is not a
requirement of the Federal Aviation Regulations. It is often used by the air carriers as one of
several hiring requirements.

Q. Can I work as an aviation mechanic without being certificated?
A. Yes, providing you work under the supervision of a certificated person and do not release
aircraft to service.

Q. Must I hold a mechanic certificate to work in a certificated repair station?
A. No.




Line maintenance, long considered the last bastion against the accelerating trend to outsource maintenance, now appears to be fast tracked in the direction of third-party vendors. It is easy to see why.

According to BACK Aviation Solutions and TeamSAI, line maintenance accounts for $8.9 billion, or 23 percent, of the $38 billion worldwide commercial jet transport MRO market (see O&M, April 2005, p. 58 for complete forecast).

"This means that, on average, about 23 percent of an airline's maintenance cost is devoted to line work," said Steve Casley, managing director at BACK. "With cost reductions the primary focus in the post-9/11 world, it's only logical that line service will be the next segment of maintenance to be more commonly outsourced."

However, line maintenance is the most difficult aspect of maintenance to outsource because it directly impacts day-of-flight operations, said Casley. Historically, line maintenance only has been contracted out by airlines operating too few flights at specific locations to justify their own on-site line service capability. "In those cases, the work went mostly to other airlines which did line maintenance at those airports. But with airline service cutbacks at many airports, independent MRO providers, who forged relationships with airlines on engine repairs and airframe overhauls, are seeing the opportunity to leverage those relationships into line work," said Casley.

One example is TIMCO Aviation Services, the Greensboro, N.C.-based heavy maintenance specialist that moved into line work two years ago.

"We saw line maintenance outsourcing as a paradigm shift and as a growth opportunity," said Jack Arehart, the company's senior vice president, business development. "Many carriers still view line work as a part of their branding and integral to their service. But as they see the MRO industry provide the service at lower cost, and other carriers taking advantage of it, they will look seriously at outsourcing line work to quality third-party providers."

TIMCO currently provides line maintenance at nine U.S. airports. At eight of those locations, it took over line services from a major carrier. Other customers include low-cost carriers and start-ups that have contracted out line work from the start, said Arehart. In addition to on-call line services, TIMCO also provides overnight checks at some of its locations. "Under some of our line service contracts, we will get multiple airplanes of a specific fleet type for scheduled overnight checks. The checks include specified log book items that need servicing or repairs, as well as work listed on special task cards such as the removal and replacement of time-limited components," he said.

According to Arehart, companies that already offer heavy maintenance and checks will have a competitive advantage when entering the line maintenance field because of their work force and because of the changing nature of line maintenance. "At one time, an overnight line check might include little more than changing a tire or a brake. Now, it encompasses more work that was done during a heavy check."

And your point is? Are you saying that AA will be the only major to contract line maint at its major hubs? Sincerely doubt it

 

[Buck]

And your point is? Are you saying that AA will be the only major to contract line maint at its major hubs? Sincerely doubt it

My point is that the union and the company are going to come up with an agreement that the members will vote for and if that decision is to allow non-licensed mechanics to work on the aircraft at OH and I believe they will, those with more seniority will bump junior members who in turn could bump the line. No AA will not be the only major to outsource line maintenance. As the Class II stations shrink in size or disappear, decisions will be made on new staffing levels. If AA continues to fly into what once was a Class II station, then an Outsourced maintenance provider could be brought in.

 

[Bob Owens]

My point is that the union and the company are going to come up with an agreement that the members will vote for and if that decision is to allow non-licensed mechanics to work on the aircraft at OH and I believe they will, those with more seniority will bump junior members who in turn could bump the line. No AA will not be the only major to outsource line maintenance. As the Class II stations shrink in size or disappear, decisions will be made on new staffing levels. If AA continues to fly into what once was a Class II station, then an Outsourced maintenance provider could be brought in.

Buck none of this is news. Most of us on the line have or still do work for 3P providors that do line maintenence. Do you think all those foreign carriers have their own mechanics over at the International Arivals Terminal? There is no big domestic carrier there for them to sub the work out to. Even when I first got into the industry 30 years ago I did it and 20 years before I got into this industry Lockheed had a huge 3P facility with a Hangar , its still there but now its a cargo building. Most of these places cut deals, 'Got an engine change, I'll give 12 hours when you get it done you are done" get it done in 4 you still got 12 so you could go and pick up a couple of hundred bucks every now and then with a few hours work. The problem, and why I got out, is that as wages across the industry slid more and more guys who worked for the majors were willing to jump into the game, and that drove things down. Add in that they rarely had the correct equipment or paperwork and the risk to your tickets because of that and it just was not worth it anymore. Providing line maintenance isnt just having a guy show up with his box anymore.

This is how its been on the line. The same faces pop up in different places on the airport. So they may say that the airport provides jobs for 5000 mechanics but those 5000 jobs may be held by less than 4000 mechanics, its not unusual to see several employers on ones Port ID. It would be like if guys puched out at AA and then went over to Spirit and worked another shift. Does that happen? Very few people who live here in NY only work at AA, and if they do they are the poor slobs who you see working all these doubles at straight time rates in addition to whatever OT they can pick up, or their wives have good jobs and dont need the money. Many work two full time jobs, we have several who work AA and the MTA as well. In situations like that the FAA Duty Time Limits really dont mean a thing.

As far as outsourced maintenance being brought in at AA, they have been doing that forever as well. Class II stations would simply be relabeled Class III. Its already happened to our Local in BDL where we used to do maintenance and now they have KTI. How many stations do you think are actually staffed by AA mechanics? The pilots help by not writing things up until they are going into a station where there is AA mechanics (and parts) unless they have no choice.

As far as guys bumping to the line from the bases I agree that the company plans on looking at the bases as a source of A&P mechanics for the line. Look at the TA we rejected and thats plain to see. Most of the gains were targeted towards the line and Horton has been running around break rooms on the line saying that the line wages are not the problem, the base is. AA has a large suppply of A&Ps, more than any other carrier and I believe that since workers tend to not move around within the industry due to the importance of seniority they figure they have an advantage over competitors who will eventually have to increase wages in order to attract enough new talent. We are already second from the bottom with only USAIR(and when you factor in work rules and benefits we are at the bottom) behind us and they are in mediation with an automatic 3% raise coming in July. Right now the system is relying on OT, not just AA but other carriers as well. If all the mechanics in this industry just limited themselves to 40 hours per week the system would collapse and we could increase our wages. The industry could not find people fast enough to pick up the work, UAL is seeing what AA saw, recalls saying "No thanks, I've had enough of your bullshit". There is a shortage but we have not been able to benefit from it due to our willingness to work more hours instead of demanding higher wages. AS long as people are willing to work more hours the airlines really do not need to hire, so they can keep wages low , pick up whoever bites at the low wages and still save tons of money. Why do you think that every proposal thats put forth by the FAA to address fatigue gets shot down? Its unfortunate that we do not have the discipline or structure to do that, if we did we would all be better off than we are.

Its a vicious cycle, they keep the wages low but offer you more hours which you really dont have the option to turn down, to make up for the wages, because we work so may hours they dont have to hire more workers, which makes those few who are looking to get in to this industry accept even lower starting wages, the company gets them in and does the same thing, offers them the ability to work more hours instead of a decent hourrly wage. On the line we have some guys who are basically part timers, they give away their hours while making their money somewhere else while we have others that work 60 or 70 hours a week at straight time rates as they CSW. Some are commuters who othwise would have quit and found other employment where they live. Thats why I laugh whenever management threatens to do away with CS's. They know as well as I what would happen if they did.

The two biggest weapons the company has as far as getting what they want is the CS policy and OT.

What this all boils down to is "outsourcing" does not have the same effect on us as it does on you. We dont care anymore, if they are going to do it then do it. The work would still be here. Remember I mentioned BDL, well the guy who KTI has working the airplane is a guy who chose not to bump the system and was laid off by AA. If AA outsorced their line maintenance then chances are that EX-AA guys would be doing the work for 3P providors. You can imagine how good the service would be.

 

[Kev3188]

"How many stations do you think are actually staffed by AA mechanics?"

That's something I'm curious about. Anyone have a list?

 

[787nightmare]

Don't think so.
Do all of your Avionics and Component mechanics have an A&P?
No, but yet they sign a return to service tag and/or an 8130.
Take a 4 hour return to service class and pass with 70% and you are good to go.
B) xUT

You just pointed out the difference between 145 and 121.
True 145, you rts above items/criteria.....out on the line to rts an aircraft, you'll need an A/P lic. Like I said, look it up.

 

[Bob Owens]

"How many stations do you think are actually staffed by AA mechanics?"

That's something I'm curious about. Anyone have a list?

Sure, you willing to reciprocate? I hear that Delta/NWA recently restffed a bunch of cities to improve their performance.

These are the places staffed by A&P mechanics
AFW
ATL
AUS
BOS
DCA
DEN
DFW
DWH
EWR
JFK
LAX
LGA
MCO
MIA
ORD
PHL
PHX
RDU
SAN
SJU
SAT
STL
TPA
TUL
Three bases, six class I and 15 class II,