TWU negotiations.........what?

[High Speed Steel]

Seems you are ignoring an important fact also.

The Meat Cleaver has not hit here at AA yet, but it is coming.

The experiment to lower wages and benefits to save jobs has failed. And you will soon no longer be so proud about numbers here at AA.

I bet it doesnt take 9 years to see it either.

Don't get fooled in to a belief that the TWU sitting on a committee is going the alter the outcome.
The only thing that has happened so far is Bob Owens has been muzzled.

Big Changes are coming, and you just hope to not become one of those statistics you love to spew.
We are in a small group and can only hope we are heard and counted.
Something like being a Who in Whoville and hoping Horton Hears a Who.

I'm not spewing statistics as you claim. It is the "cold reality" of recent aviation maintenance history. Nor do I believe I'm the only one hoping we are heard and counted, because I believe you too "Dr. Seuss", are hoping Horton Hears a Who...

 

[paul1]

post #4554????????????????????

oh you work for ual? h34r: :blink: :unsure:

 

[Buck]

Do they posted wages include s Line Premium and GEO Pay?

 

[Overspeed]

See highlighted below from another thread....

At 12/31/01, UA had 13,105 mechanic and related on the payroll. Nine years later, on 12/31/10, UA's M&R ranks had fallen to just 4,728. That's nearly 8,400 jobs gone.

The Indianapolis facility was closed and 3,000 personnel were laid off. The Oakland facility was closed, costing another 700 jobs. More jobs were lost at the SFO overhaul facility and mechanics lost jobs all over the country as maintenance was outsourced.

Seems you're ignoring the obvious as usual Chuck. I don't know the current ranks at United but I would believe 4,700 or so would be reasonable. We at AA currently have 9,657 in Title 1 that is a far greater number than what is left at United. They closed Indy and lost 3,000. Closed Oakland and lost 700 more. Had significant losses at SFO from outsourcing from what I gather. I wonder if you have began to make notice to your members that they may be in for a jolt if TULE and AFW are negatively impacted. I can see it now, A&P's exorcising seniority via article 15 (i) (3) and tapping you on the shoulder and saying "step aside junior" I want me some of that $37.43 per hour.....Better check that occupational date. With your wish list, those with less than 1990 may be in for a wild ride off to the soup lines....

I believe the post BK UA wage was $30 approx in 2004 and their pension was cut for even retirees. PBS Frontline episode shows many of the UA people got screwed hard. We were at $32-33 depending on shift and kept our pension and retiree medical until now. So for seven years each AMT at AA made $43K more than the UA counterparts. Also, they lost 8,000 plus jobs at UA where we kept that many employed making $65K a year w/no OT where their guys had to start over. Unfortunately now we will have a large number of people looking as well. Yeah the TWU sure was evil making us take that money in 2003 when we could have gone to BK in 2004 and been like UA. Stupid TWU...

 

[TWU informer]

I'm not spewing statistics as you claim. It is the "cold reality" of recent aviation maintenance history. Nor do I believe I'm the only one hoping we are heard and counted, because I believe you too "Dr. Seuss", are hoping Horton Hears a Who...

I would love to hear your explanation as to why when it happens to AMT's represented by AMFA, you and the others bash the Union with relentless diligence.
When it is about to happen at AA, and TWU represented AMT's, it is now the "Cold Reality" of aviation history?

 

[Chuck Schalk]

high speed steel ref:
I wonder if you have began to make notice to your members that they may be in for a jolt if TULE and AFW are negatively impacted. I can see it now, A&P's exorcising seniority via article 15 (i) (3) and tapping you on the shoulder and saying "step aside junior" I want me some of that $37.43 per hour.....Better check that occupational date. With your wish list, those with less than 1990


in my opinion, senority prevails, it does not matter what member works in New York as long as they are paid a livable wage to support their families. You have always knocked this as division this and now you have acknowledged it because it may affect you. Way to go union brother! The spin doctor himself has just been tangled in his own web. No wonder we are laughed at in our so called union with people like you.

who are you again?

cricket.........cricket

 

[dfw gen]

Chuck your wasting your time with high speed steel and twu informer..... its like an old story about selling you soul for a few pieces of silver. the division will occur like it or not and my guess will be that yea TUL and AFW will be negatively affected (hate to see it happen). And that tap on the shoulder not sure that will happen either, they might want to ask a few of the United guys in Indy. Seniority should prevail i agree with you but bankruptcy kind of trumps all. I was over at AFW credit union last week talked to a few guys they were all saying "hey ill just bump to DFW". Most of them had one or two gen fams. So lets see you come to DFW,JFK,MIA,ORD etc 3 weeks of gen fam, 3 week wait for your aoa badge, hey the company pays you to move. Meanwhile the company hopes it keeps flying until everyone is on board, sure doc click your heels together three times and wish for it in the other hand.......

 

[TWU informer]

Chuck your wasting your time with high speed steel and twu informer..... its like an old story about selling you soul for a few pieces of silver. the division will occur like it or not and my guess will be that yea TUL and AFW will be negatively affected (hate to see it happen). And that tap on the shoulder not sure that will happen either, they might want to ask a few of the United guys in Indy. Seniority should prevail i agree with you but bankruptcy kind of trumps all. I was over at AFW credit union last week talked to a few guys they were all saying "hey ill just bump to DFW". Most of them had one or two gen fams. So lets see you come to DFW,JFK,MIA,ORD etc 3 weeks of gen fam, 3 week wait for your aoa badge, hey the company pays you to move. Meanwhile the company hopes it keeps flying until everyone is on board, sure doc click your heels together three times and wish for it in the other hand.......

As special and unreplaceable as you sound, you are wasting your time with me.

I have only met a few that thought they were more than just a number, most of them worked for Northwest right before they struck and were replaced by scabs.

You sound like the one clicking your heels and hoping seniority is abrogated. Only in your dreams.

Good Luck, and I will not wake you up until it is over.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Chuck your wasting your time with high speed steel and twu informer..... its like an old story about selling you soul for a few pieces of silver. the division will occur like it or not and my guess will be that yea TUL and AFW will be negatively affected (hate to see it happen). And that tap on the shoulder not sure that will happen either, they might want to ask a few of the United guys in Indy. Seniority should prevail i agree with you but bankruptcy kind of trumps all. I was over at AFW credit union last week talked to a few guys they were all saying "hey ill just bump to DFW". Most of them had one or two gen fams. So lets see you come to DFW,JFK,MIA,ORD etc 3 weeks of gen fam, 3 week wait for your aoa badge, hey the company pays you to move. Meanwhile the company hopes it keeps flying until everyone is on board, sure doc click your heels together three times and wish for it in the other hand.......

Wow, a perfect specimen of the vote no coalitions following. Chuck should be so proud to have your support. You must be nervous, already knocking the AFW base guys qualifications and hoping da'judge will step in and erect a blockade for you...

 

[TWU informer]

Wow, a perfect specimen of the vote no coalitions following. Chuck should be so proud to have your support. You must be nervous, already knocking the AFW base guys qualifications and hoping da'judge will step in and erect a blockade for you...

I'll bet he wears the TWU logo to work daily, while announcing that seniority will no longer rule and the Bankruptcy Judge will see to it that his superior and unreplaceable skills of improtance remain on the property so that AA can survive. Those welders, machinist, and gen fam flunkies don't stand a chance.

My guess is that AFW TAESL is sold and DHW becomes unlicensed overhaul, and anyone with less than 12/31/2000 leaves the property.

If the old Vermont Plan comes into play then Tulsa Composiste Center, Wheel and Brake Center, APU Wiring Center will be sold.

There will be an offering to the top to leave early, but it will not be enough to spare the bottom. There will be enough leave that trying to upgrade the unskilled into skileed positions will be a major challenge and will cost AA but unquantifiable to the bean counter.

Tulsa and DWH will both be 24/7 operations. AA will keep some amount of overhaul in-house. Landing Gear Overhaul will expand and become a third party money maker.

That is just what takes place before AA emerges from C11. More to follow in the years after that. New Rule, You either compete, or your work is gone and thus so are you.

 

[Buck]

I believe the post BK UA wage was $30 approx in 2004 and their pension was cut for even retirees. PBS Frontline episode shows many of the UA people got screwed hard. We were at $32-33 depending on shift and kept our pension and retiree medical until now. So for seven years each AMT at AA made $43K more than the UA counterparts. Also, they lost 8,000 plus jobs at UA where we kept that many employed making $65K a year w/no OT where their guys had to start over. Unfortunately now we will have a large number of people looking as well. Yeah the TWU sure was evil making us take that money in 2003 when we could have gone to BK in 2004 and been like UA. Stupid TWU...

How can you say that each AMT made more than their counterparts at UA? Are the OSM's not AMT's?

 

[Buck]

high speed steel ref:
I wonder if you have began to make notice to your members that they may be in for a jolt if TULE and AFW are negatively impacted. I can see it now, A&P's exorcising seniority via article 15 (i) (3) and tapping you on the shoulder and saying "step aside junior" I want me some of that $37.43 per hour.....Better check that occupational date. With your wish list, those with less than 1990


in my opinion, senority prevails, it does not matter what member works in New York as long as they are paid a livable wage to support their families. You have always knocked this as division this and now you have acknowledged it because it may affect you. Way to go union brother! The spin doctor himself has just been tangled in his own web. No wonder we are laughed at in our so called union with people like you.

who are you again?

cricket.........cricket

I agree with your concept of seniority, however it may not be so easy. In my opinion, there could be a Red Circling, leaving the line alone to deal with their own RIF. Then the bases would have to see how Red Circling would work for them. Will the unlicensed AMT's be allowed to go OH?

 

[Duke787]

How can you say that each AMT made more than their counterparts at UA? Are the OSM's not AMT's?

No, OSMs don't use their license to sign anything off, they might have them but they don't use them. It's not like these guys that APPLY for the OSM jobs are forced to work as OSM's. You have to start someplace, I didn't want to work midnights at the hanger for 7 years.

 

[Buck]

No, OSMs don't use their license to sign anything off, they might have them but they don't use them. It's not like these guys that APPLY for the OSM jobs are forced to work as OSM's. You have to start someplace, I didn't want to work midnights at the hanger for 7 years.

The point is that the OSM, made less than both AA and UA AMT's.


Again I ask the question, Overspeed, are OSM's AMT's?

Do you calculate them in the overall wage?

 

[TWU informer]

I believe the post BK UA wage was $30 approx in 2004 and their pension was cut for even retirees. PBS Frontline episode shows many of the UA people got screwed hard. We were at $32-33 depending on shift and kept our pension and retiree medical until now. So for seven years each AMT at AA made $43K more than the UA counterparts. Also, they lost 8,000 plus jobs at UA where we kept that many employed making $65K a year w/no OT where their guys had to start over. Unfortunately now we will have a large number of people looking as well. Yeah the TWU sure was evil making us take that money in 2003 when we could have gone to BK in 2004 and been like UA. Stupid TWU...

I guess it could also be said that Stupid TWU volunteered the paycut that caused the UA Bankruptcy which has now cause the AA Bankrutpcy.

Brilliant! Why does every TWU sympathizer have this arguement that reads like "My Union Sucks, but not as bad your Union Sucks"?
Maybe you could also explain how the powerful AFL-CIO is putting a stop to this decimation of good paying middle class jobs?

There is not a single union on the planet winning at this game, no matter how you continue to twist, spin, or manipulate the truth.

Let's just see how the TWU, given the power you personally grant them, "fight like hell" to stop this snowball.

And don't forget, isolation from the powerful AFL-CIO into an independent union will weaken your representation.
We have one AFL-CIO Union (TWU), and two Independent Union (APA, APFA) in this Bankruptcy, let's see the AFL-CIO make our shafting smaller than theirs.

Stupid is as Stupid does!