TWU negotiations.........what?

[strikeforce]

The license pay should be aligned with what it reality is. If you have a license or a certification and it is used in your job functions, you should be compensated. If a mechanic is required by the FAA to have his A&P then he should get paid. If a machinist is required to have a certificate it should be the same. It is the company that limits the total number that can be compensated for. I do not know how the machinist jobs are structured, however it is the requirements that should be paid for. When a machinist consistently performs aircraft work he should be compensated. Even if he must be compensated for a trip to the hangar. Skill premiums should not be created out of thin air for all. It might be possible to negotiate a higher base pay if we would stop fighting over license/certificate premiums. This also includes Journeymen, Plumbers and Wielders and other specialists.

It's not only the skill premium....it's the personal liability that's tied to the A&P. Everytime you sign your name in the E6 or on a E58.....there's always that remote possibility of jail time. The CO mechanic in Paris with the Concorde is a perfect example, or how about Flight 191? $5 is an absolute insult for this amount of liability.

 

[Buck]

It's not only the skill premium....it's the personal liability that's tied to the A&P. Everytime you sign your name in the E6 or on a E58.....there's always that remote possibility of jail time. The CO mechanic in Paris with the Concorde is a perfect example, or how about Flight 191? $5 is an absolute insult for this amount of liability.

I understand, however is there not some liability when a machinist or a wielder certifies a part?

The point being is that we as A&P's cannot disassociate ourselves from other aircraft maintence professionals.
I still stand by my point that if an A&P and or Machinist/Wielder has a license or certificate and they are required for the job, then they should be compensated. To further clarify my own opinion, since the TWU has two different basic work groups (there might be others), just because aircraft maintenance must be in the union with facilities as an example, that does not mean the A&P should receive a Electrical Journeyman's pay for his certificate.

 

[strikeforce]

I understand, however is there not some liability when a machinist or a wielder certifies a part?

The point being is that we as A&P's cannot disassociate ourselves from other aircraft maintence professionals.
I still stand by my point that if an A&P and or Machinist/Wielder has a license or certificate and they are required for the job, then they should be compensated. To further clarify my own opinion, since the TWU has two different basic work groups (there might be others), just because aircraft maintenance must be in the union with facilities as an example, that does not mean the A&P should receive a Electrical Journeyman's pay for his certificate.

I agree with your statement, and I would only add that each work group i.e A&P, machinist, welder, facilities electrician, plumber or any other skill set their own base wages, license premium, skill premium or whatever other skill pay associated with that trade. I find it absolutely absurd that ALL mechanics make the same base wage and the only difference is the skill pay. That's just another reason why all of these skill trades need to negotiate seperately....WE don't have the same liabilities and responsibilities. But, try explaining that to the idiots at the INTL.

 

[Buck]

I agree with your statement, and I would only add that each work group i.e A&P, machinist, welder, facilities electrician, plumber or any other skill set their own base wages, license premium, skill premium or whatever other skill pay associated with that trade. I find it absolutely absurd that ALL mechanics make the same base wage and the only difference is the skill pay. That's just another reason why all of these skill trades need to negotiate seperately....WE don't have the same liabilities and responsibilities. But, try explaining that to the idiots at the INTL.

Are you saying that the 8130 part you install on an aircraft is serviceable just because you have full responsibilty for ensuring that it is tagged properly? I beieve that if there were a failure, that yes the A&P woud be before the man, but eventullay so would the manufactuering process. Having the Facilities negotiate there own base rate and certificate premiums is s good idea.

In the latest contracts and or T/A's it is the Facilites that comes to mind. A Facitlies Maintenance man receives the same base pay as an A&P Mechanic, when it comes to license or certificate pay, the Facilities receive the same as an A&P no matter how many certificates he has. There is where I find fault.

 

[FWAAA]

Are you saying that the 8130 part you install on an aircraft is serviceable just because you have full responsibilty for ensuring that it is tagged properly? I beieve that if there were a failure, that yes the A&P woud be before the man, but eventullay so would the manufactuering process. Having the Facilities negotiate there own base rate and certificate premiums is s good idea.

In the latest contracts and or T/A's it is the Facilites that comes to mind. A Facitlies Maintenance man receives the same base pay as an A&P Mechanic, when it comes to license or certificate pay, the Facilities receive the same as an A&P no matter how many certificates he has. There is where I find fault.

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but the facilities mechanic has more in common with line maintenance compared to heavy overhaul - in that their job (facilities maintenance) cannot be outsourced to low-wage third world locations like heavy overhaul can. Some thing with the classification that repairs belt loaders and scissor lifts and tugs, etc (all the ground vehicles with wheels). Those things have to be repaired in place, not flown off to El Salvador for heavy checks.

 

[Buck]

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but the facilities mechanic has more in common with line maintenance compared to heavy overhaul - in that their job (facilities maintenance) cannot be outsourced to low-wage third world locations like heavy overhaul can. Some thing with the classification that repairs belt loaders and scissor lifts and tugs, etc (all the ground vehicles with wheels). Those things have to be repaired in place, not flown off to El Salvador for heavy checks.

Your statement does not bother me. What you state is a fact. If the Facilities Maintenance Group can negotiate a better wage than the A&P Mechanics, then so be it. It does go both ways. Any item we discuss here based on compensation could ultimatly backfire from what the original post intent was.

 

[strikeforce]

Are you saying that the 8130 part you install on an aircraft is serviceable just because you have full responsibilty for ensuring that it is tagged properly? I beieve that if there were a failure, that yes the A&P woud be before the man, but eventullay so would the manufactuering process. Having the Facilities negotiate there own base rate and certificate premiums is s good idea.

In the latest contracts and or T/A's it is the Facilites that comes to mind. A Facitlies Maintenance man receives the same base pay as an A&P Mechanic, when it comes to license or certificate pay, the Facilities receive the same as an A&P no matter how many certificates he has. There is where I find fault.

I'm not diminishing anybody's role or responsibilities....machinists, electricians, plumbers and automotive mechanics have liabilities of their own. These trades have people in other industries that perform the same job and there are set rates for those trades...i.e dealerships, contractors, journeymen, master electricians & plumbers, and maybe AA is paying less or more than the industry standard....I don't know. A&P's have our own rates...and I know for sure that A&P's for AA are making less than our peers at WN, Fed EX, UPS and now Alaska. What I don't agree is that auto, plant, facilities, and A&P's make the same pay. We certainly don't do the same work. That's like saying loan officers, investment bankers, auditors, and analysts make the same pay because they all work in the financial industry. And, that's certainly not the case. And, let me just say that is it possible that A&P's are way undervalued....maybe $51 is too low for our liabilities and responsibility. Has anyone done research on the value of our skill. How much was that pylon change worth when it ripped off that DC-10. There's huge ramifications to human life when A&P's make mistakes, right?? I believe it's worth much more than $51 an hour.

I'm sure the pilots have placed a liability value tied to their skill level. How did they come up with their pay rates of $150,200,250 or 300 per hour????? And, who do they compare themselves to?????

 

[Buck]

I'm not diminishing anybody's role or responsibilities....machinists, electricians, plumbers and automotive mechanics have liabilities of their own. These trades have people in other industries that perform the same job and there are set rates for those trades...i.e dealerships, contractors, journeymen, master electricians & plumbers, and maybe AA is paying less or more than the industry standard....I don't know. A&P's have our own rates...and I know for sure that A&P's for AA are making less than our peers at WN, Fed EX, UPS and now Alaska. What I don't agree is that auto, plant, facilities, and A&P's make the same pay. We certainly don't do the same work. That's like saying loan officers, investment bankers, auditors, and analysts make the same pay because they all work in the financial industry. And, that's certainly not the case. And, let me just say that is it possible that A&P's are way undervalued....maybe $51 is too low for our liabilities and responsibility. Has anyone done research on the value of our skill. How much was that pylon change worth when it ripped off that DC-10. There's huge ramifications to human life when A&P's make mistakes, right?? I believe it's worth much more than $51 an hour.

I'm sure the pilots have placed a liability value tied to their skill level. How did they come up with their pay rates of $150,200,250 or 300 per hour????? And, who do they compare themselves to?????

Agreed.

Side Note: American Eagle Pilots T/A will allow for pay to be based on Seniority rather than Weight Class.

 

[FWAAA]

. . . maybe $51 is too low for our liabilities and responsibility. Has anyone done research on the value of our skill. How much was that pylon change worth when it ripped off that DC-10. There's huge ramifications to human life when A&P's make mistakes, right?? I believe it's worth much more than $51 an hour.

Do any A&P mechanics purchase errors and omissions (malpractice) insurance that pays off when they screw up? Nope. Your employer covers that risk for you. No doubt your profession is one in which mistakes can cost hundreds of lives in addition to more than $100 million in damages (just for the charred wreckage of one widebody plane), but you're not covering any of that liability out of your own pocket, so there really is no justification to base your compensation on the potential risks if you screw up.

I'm not trying to minimize the responsibilities you guys have - but it's really irrelevant when deciding how much money you get per hour of repair work. Plus, since there's no real risk when you replace a reading lamp above 4A or fix a wobbly tray table, perhaps those tasks are worth much, much less than $51/hr? I don't think you want to go there.

Perhaps your jobs are worth $150/hr (or more) because of the huge potential liabilities. Increase your labor rate too high and you won't have any airplanes to work on - and the goal is to have planes on which to work, right? Maybe pilots are really worth $500 OR $1,000 per hour - same problem - if they were to band together to achieve that labor rate, nobody could afford to fly, and the pilots would all end up earning $0.00 per hour.

 

[AV1]

Well..........I am pretty sure AFW is safe. Where else would we have Skyball?

 

[Buck]

Well..........I am pretty sure AFW is safe. Where else would we have Skyball?

Hate Hate

Hate


Hate Hate Hate

 

[AV1]

Hate Hate

Hate


Hate Hate Hate

What???? Just a off the wall comment, nothing meant by it.

 

[Buck]

What???? Just a off the wall comment, nothing meant by it.

Not directed at you. Just felt like saying it to see what response
I would get..........

 

[Overspeed]

Do any A&P mechanics purchase errors and omissions (malpractice) insurance that pays off when they screw up? Nope. Your employer covers that risk for you. No doubt your profession is one in which mistakes can cost hundreds of lives in addition to more than $100 million in damages (just for the charred wreckage of one widebody plane), but you're not covering any of that liability out of your own pocket, so there really is no justification to base your compensation on the potential risks if you screw up.

I'm not trying to minimize the responsibilities you guys have - but it's really irrelevant when deciding how much money you get per hour of repair work. Plus, since there's no real risk when you replace a reading lamp above 4A or fix a wobbly tray table, perhaps those tasks are worth much, much less than $51/hr? I don't think you want to go there.

Perhaps your jobs are worth $150/hr (or more) because of the huge potential liabilities. Increase your labor rate too high and you won't have any airplanes to work on - and the goal is to have planes on which to work, right? Maybe pilots are really worth $500 OR $1,000 per hour - same problem - if they were to band together to achieve that labor rate, nobody could afford to fly, and the pilots would all end up earning $0.00 per hour.

The European system addresses the liability issue. On the line their mechanics have either A or B licenses. With an A license you can work the line but only basic tasks like performing task cards or non-safety of flight repairs like seats and reading lights. The B mechanics can work on everything all the way up to non-routine tasks and release the log book. Supervisors even need the higher level C license. All mechanics must have fleet classes that take about 13 weeks or more and then you only get paid for the aircraft that you are typer rated on.

So in Europe if you want to get paid more, you need to be more qualified. The basic license just gets you in the door.

The US needs to step up the licensing standards.

 

[Overspeed]

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but the facilities mechanic has more in common with line maintenance compared to heavy overhaul - in that their job (facilities maintenance) cannot be outsourced to low-wage third world locations like heavy overhaul can. Some thing with the classification that repairs belt loaders and scissor lifts and tugs, etc (all the ground vehicles with wheels). Those things have to be repaired in place, not flown off to El Salvador for heavy checks.

That is a true statement. That's why plumbers in NYC or SFO make so much more. Can't fly your C/B panel to China to get the lights back on or repipe your house. The biggest problem with planes is that they can fly to do routine work to where the mechanics are to perform the repair. The work is highly portable.