TWU negotiations.........what?

[Hopeful]

Do any A&P mechanics purchase errors and omissions (malpractice) insurance that pays off when they screw up? Nope. Your employer covers that risk for you. No doubt your profession is one in which mistakes can cost hundreds of lives in addition to more than $100 million in damages (just for the charred wreckage of one widebody plane), but you're not covering any of that liability out of your own pocket, so there really is no justification to base your compensation on the potential risks if you screw up.

Not entirely true. When mechanics screw up to the point where fines are called for and revocation of licenses is the penalty, the the airlines feed the mechanics to the wolves. Their response to the feds are , "HEY, WE FIRED THE MECHANIC(S) INVOLVED."
You seem to be missing the point of why the A&P is required especially on the line...So when an incident, be it fatal or catastrophic or whatever occurs, the airlines tell the feds "THERE'S THE MECHANIC, GO GET HIM, HE HAS THE LICENSE." It is to pass the liabilitity on to the individual.

I'm not trying to minimize the responsibilities you guys have - but it's really irrelevant when deciding how much money you get per hour of repair work. Plus, since there's no real risk when you replace a reading lamp above 4A or fix a wobbly tray table, perhaps those tasks are worth much, much less than $51/hr? I don't think you want to go there.

Of course it doesn't require too much skill to fix that wobbly tray table, but when that wobbly tray table collapses during your first class dinner and a hot cup of coffee soills on your groin, then your lawyer,,,,you in this case, will bring to light in a lawsuit how AA failed to train and utilize its people properly.

Perhaps your jobs are worth $150/hr (or more) because of the huge potential liabilities. Increase your labor rate too high and you won't have any airplanes to work on - and the goal is to have planes on which to work, right? Maybe pilots are really worth $500 OR $1,000 per hour - same problem - if they were to band together to achieve that labor rate, nobody could afford to fly, and the pilots would all end up earning $0.00 per hour.

Increase our labor rate too high???????????
We need to get to at least the middle before we can be that demanding!

 

[Bob Owens]

The work is highly portable.

Only if the airplane is airworthy.

 

[Bob Owens]

Do any A&P mechanics purchase errors and omissions (malpractice) insurance that pays off when they screw up? Nope. Your employer covers that risk for you. No doubt your profession is one in which mistakes can cost hundreds of lives in addition to more than $100 million in damages (just for the charred wreckage of one widebody plane), but you're not covering any of that liability out of your own pocket, so there really is no justification to base your compensation on the potential risks if you screw up.

Wrong, we can be sued, charged(as in the case of the CAL mechanics who worked on the DC-10 they blamed the Concorde carsh on) fined and lose our licenses if we screw up. The liability is real.

I'm not trying to minimize the responsibilities you guys have - but it's really irrelevant when deciding how much money you get per hour of repair work. Plus, since there's no real risk when you replace a reading lamp above 4A or fix a wobbly tray table, perhaps those tasks are worth much, much less than $51/hr? I don't think you want to go there.

No lets go there. We are talking hourly rates here, not by each task.

Perhaps your jobs are worth $150/hr (or more) because of the huge potential liabilities. Increase your labor rate too high and you won't have any airplanes to work on - and the goal is to have planes on which to work, right? Maybe pilots are really worth $500 OR $1,000 per hour - same problem - if they were to band together to achieve that labor rate, nobody could afford to fly, and the pilots would all end up earning $0.00 per hour.

Ok, you are the numbers guy, how much would ticket prices increase, in theory, if we were paid $150/hr? $10 each way. $20 each way? Did you ever factor in the possibility that more than likely the company currently loses more because of the low wages than they save with them? You often cite WN productivity, well their mechanics have the same skills we do but they obviously trust their management team, enjoy a fair wage and deliver outstanding performance as a result. WN pays their mechanics a lot more yet they charge considerably less per ticket than AA. You will cite that they outsource their OH yet to date nobody has proven that outsourcing is cheaper .

 

[strikeforce]

The European system addresses the liability issue. On the line their mechanics have either A or B licenses. With an A license you can work the line but only basic tasks like performing task cards or non-safety of flight repairs like seats and reading lights. The B mechanics can work on everything all the way up to non-routine tasks and release the log book. Supervisors even need the higher level C license. All mechanics must have fleet classes that take about 13 weeks or more and then you only get paid for the aircraft that you are typer rated on.

So in Europe if you want to get paid more, you need to be more qualified. The basic license just gets you in the door.

The US needs to step up the licensing standards.

Maybe you should go work in europe. The A&P gives me the qualifications to work on airplanes.....it's up to AA as to how much training they want to provide me on their fleet type. It's not my fault that AA allocates only 40 hours of gem fam and then expects me to know every system on that airplane.

 

[paul1]

Hey Bob, I heard when the twu committee was looking for are front guy to meet face to face with the company in negotations they selected you. But you said no
way not me. If this is true, and I have no doubt to not to believe my source, its sounds like you can bang the drum but are not able to dance.

I think its time for the committee to come together with AA get all your @@@@@@ asses in room and don't come out untill a deal is done . That way both groups can stop holding us hostage. I think in November when you ask to be released (I doubt we get a new contract because you heels are so far dug in ), if we get it you guys are going to be praying for a PEB at the end of the 30day cooling off period or just go to binding arbitation which you can do before the 30 day cooling off period.

Then you can throw your hands up in the air yelling about how you did everything, but no one would listen. Its someone else's fault...................

 

[strikeforce]

Do any A&P mechanics purchase errors and omissions (malpractice) insurance that pays off when they screw up? Nope. Your employer covers that risk for you. No doubt your profession is one in which mistakes can cost hundreds of lives in addition to more than $100 million in damages (just for the charred wreckage of one widebody plane), but you're not covering any of that liability out of your own pocket, so there really is no justification to base your compensation on the potential risks if you screw up.

I'm not trying to minimize the responsibilities you guys have - but it's really irrelevant when deciding how much money you get per hour of repair work. Plus, since there's no real risk when you replace a reading lamp above 4A or fix a wobbly tray table, perhaps those tasks are worth much, much less than $51/hr? I don't think you want to go there.

Perhaps your jobs are worth $150/hr (or more) because of the huge potential liabilities. Increase your labor rate too high and you won't have any airplanes to work on - and the goal is to have planes on which to work, right? Maybe pilots are really worth $500 OR $1,000 per hour - same problem - if they were to band together to achieve that labor rate, nobody could afford to fly, and the pilots would all end up earning $0.00 per hour.

I do want to go there......I don't have to justify my pay to anyone on this forum including Gerard Arpey. AA either meets the mechanics proposals or they have options, but all this BS about our pay is irrelevant unless YOU are an aircraft mechanic for AA. If you're not......shut the hell up because I haven't criticized what you, E, Josh, and all the other guys make.

 

[TWU informer]

Hey Bob, I heard when the twu committee was looking for are front guy to meet face to face with the company in negotations they selected you. But you said no
way not me. If this is true, and I have no doubt to not to believe my source, its sounds like you can bang the drum but are not able to dance.

I was told the same thing.

 

[Bob Owens]

Hey Bob, I heard when the twu committee was looking for are front guy to meet face to face with the company in negotations they selected you. But you said no
way not me. If this is true, and I have no doubt to not to believe my source, its sounds like you can bang the drum but are not able to dance.

Not true, your source is a liar. I've pretty much stepped up any time anything was available and I've tried to make my way into the recent talks along with Larry but Don won't allow it. The only time that there was a discussion about a "front guy" was with the Sub-committee, where several of the guys on the sub-committee wanted me to be the Chairman, but it was clear to me from their reaction that the guys from Tulsa would not be comfortable with that, so I recommended Larry Pike because among other things he has both Line and Base experience, which would put Tulsa at ease, and, lives in Texas, so if there were any short notice meetings with the company he could be there. I would have to fly in from New York. I said I was willing to do it, in fact I would like to do it, but logistically Larry was a better fit. The vote was unanimous. The last thing I wanted was for the sub-committee to go in there with the largest Local feeling that they got a Chairman put on them that they did not want.

 

[787nightmare]

Do any A&P mechanics purchase errors and omissions (malpractice) insurance that pays off when they screw up? Nope. Your employer covers that risk for you. No doubt your profession is one in which mistakes can cost hundreds of lives in addition to more than $100 million in damages (just for the charred wreckage of one widebody plane), but you're not covering any of that liability out of your own pocket, so there really is no justification to base your compensation on the potential risks if you screw up.

I'm not trying to minimize the responsibilities you guys have - but it's really irrelevant when
deciding how much money you get per hour of repair work. Plus, since there's no real risk when you replace a reading lamp above 4A or fix a wobbly tray table, perhaps those
tasks are worth much, much less than $51/hr? I don't think you want to go there.

Perhaps your jobs are worth $150/hr (or more) because of the huge potential liabilities. Increase your labor rate too high and you won't have any airplanes to work on - and the goal is to have planes on which to work, right? Maybe pilots are really worth $500 OR $1,000 per hour - same problem - if they were to band together to achieve that labor rate, nobody could afford to fly, and the
pilots would all end up earning $0.00 per hour.

Yeah, the Co will get behind you...about 50 ft behind you and scream "there he is FAA!"
"see?...here's his training records you told us to comply with!"

 

[Buck]

The European system addresses the liability issue. On the line their mechanics have either A or B licenses. With an A license you can work the line but only basic tasks like performing task cards or non-safety of flight repairs like seats and reading lights. The B mechanics can work on everything all the way up to non-routine tasks and release the log book. Supervisors even need the higher level C license. All mechanics must have fleet classes that take about 13 weeks or more and then you only get paid for the aircraft that you are typer rated on.

So in Europe if you want to get paid more, you need to be more qualified. The basic license just gets you in the door.

The US needs to step up the licensing standards.

`I am curious about the compensation of mechanics in the States and Europe. While the license scheme has been laid out, what other factors are involved. Do the mechanics have to be drug tested? What level of experience is required even before they are granted that first licensing level. Are the licensing requirements the same across the common market. Do they receive GEO pay. Do their Facilities mechanics earn the same base pay or are the compensated for a license they don't have. Do they have to speak, read, and write several different languages.

 

[Overspeed]

`I am curious about the compression of mechanics in the States and Europe. While the license scheme has been laid out, what other factors are involved. Do the mechanics have to be drug tested? What level of experience is required even before they are granted that first licensing level. Are the licensing requirements the same across the common market. Do they receive GEO pay. Do their Facilities mechanics earn the same base pay or are the compensated for a license they don't have. Do they have to speak, read, and write several different languages.

"Compression"? Do you mean compensation? The EC is pretty much a socialist scheme. Benefits like health care, pensions, vacation, and sick time are very regulated by the government. Taxes are therefore higher as well to pay for it but on the plus side, companies can't leverage one set of benefits against the other in negotiations because those items are not negotiable. That leaves compensation which can be variable based on country cost of living. The grand Euro experiment was supposed to alleviate some of those regional differences but Greece and a few other countries seem to be making that difficult.

Drug testing I have heard is like us pre-1990. No random.

Experience requirements under the EASA system are tough. From what I have read they have to do 3 to 5 years apprentice type programs and testing is very tough. EASA is the accepted standard across Europe so yes they are the same except for the UK, I heard they still cling to their independence and uniqueness. Notice they have not jumped on the Euro band wagon. They have the same rules as us regarding language. English is the language of aviation so a company either needs to translate the manuals or have their employees understand English. (I understand one of the most used words in aviation - the f-bomb - is multilingual.)

 

[Buck]

"Compression"? Do you mean compensation? The EC is pretty much a socialist scheme. Benefits like health care, pensions, vacation, and sick time are very regulated by the government. Taxes are therefore higher as well to pay for it but on the plus side, companies can't leverage one set of benefits against the other in negotiations because those items are not negotiable. That leaves compensation which can be variable based on country cost of living. The grand Euro experiment was supposed to alleviate some of those regional differences but Greece and a few other countries seem to be making that difficult.

Drug testing I have heard is like us pre-1990. No random.

Experience requirements under the EASA system are tough. From what I have read they have to do 3 to 5 years apprentice type programs and testing is very tough. EASA is the accepted standard across Europe so yes they are the same except for the UK, I heard they still cling to their independence and uniqueness. Notice they have not jumped on the Euro band wagon. They have the same rules as us regarding language. English is the language of aviation so a company either needs to translate the manuals or have their employees understand English. (I understand one of the most used words in aviation - the f-bomb - is multilingual.)

I am somewhat familiar with the way the German system is.

At an early age children begin to be divided up base on certain criteria, but in the end some go Office and others go Technical. Then are redivided and so on. The impression I received is their system is a little more structured than ours.

 

[Bob Owens]

I am somewhat familiar with the way the German system is.

At an early age children begin to be divided up base on certain criteria, but in the end some go Office and others go Technical. Then are redivided and so on. The impression I received is their system is a little more structured than ours.

The AA aircraft mechanics in Europe earn around $10/hr more than we do. You can look it up on Jetnet. They do not have to worry about Retiree Medical, sick time, IOD time, pensions, medical or even school, including college, for their kids. They typically have at least five weeks of vacation and at least ten paid holidays, not half pay either. Sure they pay higher taxes but figure out what we pay for insurance to cover all the things that they don't have to worry about and they net a lot more than we do.

Drug testing? No, working people still have civil rights over there. Every few years they take to the streets to make sure it stays that way.

 

[Flying low]

Just wondering, Does AA add all money spent in the unlimited overtime in their "highest labor cost" in the industry?
Is any non-union employees also part of the equation (schedulers, low level management, etc...)?

 

[Bob Owens]

Just wondering, Does AA add all money spent in the unlimited overtime in their "highest labor cost" in the industry?
Is any non-union employees also part of the equation (schedulers, low level management, etc...)?

Yes, it would also include the Mechanics they employ in Europe that earn $10/hr more than us and all the OT they get doing all that 3P work they do. Sure its great for the company, they get the extra revenue and then they use the costs against workers here.