TWU negotiations.........what?

[Overspeed]

There is no adapting for the A&P mechanic within the TWU. TWU represented A&P Mechanics have been used as leverage by the TWU for their own "all inclusive" gains for everybody they represent. Just look within the TWU represented catagories vs the industry. The TWU represented A&Ps are near the bottom vs the industry, while the rest of the TWU represented title groups are at or near the top vs the industry. You speak of adapting, yeah, that's your code for"shut up, and accept another sub standard contract".

In other words, most of us cannot wait till the TWU and their politically correct commies get the boot, and we get the AMP in.

What I find ironic is that many members blame the Int'l for everything when they should turn their focus on their officers. Unions or Associations should have a list of ethical and professional standards for their members (i.e. hold each other accountable and weed out the slackers). Ever get tired of doing someone else's work because they have no business being an A&P? I bet Southwest mechanics who get paid top dollar weed out the slackers before they make through probation.

Guess what? A professional standards system was being proposed but our illustrious presidents did not want that. Why? Local leaders and fellow union members need to hold each other accountable.

Our local leaders need to adapt as well.

 

[Buck]

What I find ironic is that many members blame the Int'l for everything when they should turn their focus on their officers. Unions or Associations should have a list of ethical and professional standards for their members (i.e. hold each other accountable and weed out the slackers). Ever get tired of doing someone else's work because they have no business being an A&P? I bet Southwest mechanics who get paid top dollar weed out the slackers before they make through probation.

Guess what? A professional standards system was being proposed but our illustrious presidents did not want that. Why? Local leaders and fellow union members need to hold each other accountable.

Our local leaders need to adapt as well.

Very good point. But are you suggesting that mechanics at American are performing at sub-standard levels? That laws and regulations are being broken? In most cases if you look beyond being a slacker there are personal issues that prevent the union or company from enforcing a employment action on the employee. I am not condoning anything, just stating that many have been brought before the man ony to be returned to duty, in most cases with pay. The biggest dismissle issue at the company, is when you lie and steal. (there are many forms of both.)

 

[787nightmare]

What I find ironic is that many members blame the Int'l for everything when they should turn their focus on their officers. Unions or Associations should have a list of ethical and professional standards for their members (i.e. hold each other accountable and weed out the slackers). Ever get tired of doing someone else's work because they have no business being an A&P? I bet Southwest mechanics who get paid top dollar weed out the slackers before they make through probation. Guess what? A professional standards system was being proposed but our illustrious presidents did not want that. Why? Local leaders and fellow union members need to hold each other accountable.

Our local leaders need to adapt as well.

You got that one right. WN mechs are a unified bunch and hawkeye a guy through probation. At(most)stations if they detect an attitude from the newhire, they'll start pushing buttons. If they want you gone, they generally succeed in getting you to resign or terminated. They're looking for another racehorse to join the ranks. Not another slackass.

 

[Overspeed]

Very good point. But are you suggesting that mechanics at American are performing at sub-standard levels? That laws and regulations are being broken? In most cases if you look beyond being a slacker there are personal issues that prevent the union or company from enforcing a employment action on the employee. I am not condoning anything, just stating that many have been brought before the man ony to be returned to duty, in most cases with pay. The biggest dismissle issue at the company, is when you lie and steal. (there are many forms of both.)

No the work is getting done but not at the level it could be done. Ever have a CC give you a job because he said if he gives it to the other guy it will never get done? The work gets done but a small group sidesteps work by complaining, or being slow, or some other work avoidance strategy. If we shed these slackers that pay could be redirected to those that do deserve higher pay. Instead what happens is the quality people see that the slackers get away with it so they back off as well.

 

[787nightmare]

There is no adapting for the A&P mechanic within the TWU. TWU represented A&P Mechanics have been used as leverage by the TWU for their own "all inclusive" gains for everybody they represent. Just look within the TWU represented catagories vs the industry. The TWU represented A&Ps are near the bottom vs the industry, while the rest of the TWU represented title groups are at or near the top vs the industry. You speak of adapting, yeah, that's your code for"shut up, and accept another sub standard contract".

In other words, most of us cannot wait till the TWU and their politically correct commies get the boot, and we get the AMP in.

X2. Excellent.

 

[Buck]

No the work is getting done but not at the level it could be done. Ever have a CC give you a job because he said if he gives it to the other guy it will never get done? The work gets done but a small group sidesteps work by complaining, or being slow, or some other work avoidance strategy. If we shed these slackers that pay could be redirected to those that do deserve higher pay. Instead what happens is the quality people see that the slackers get away with it so they back off as well.

I have to say that no I am not sure what you are referring to. I am a crew chief and I treat my crew equally.

Who determines at AA, at what level is adaquate?

Do you believe that the TWU is going to allow to remove a slacker ( your word)?

It would see under the guise of socialism that the TWU practices, that everyone is equal and has the right to improve, so there is no reason to terminate anyone.

DO you really believe that the TWU/Company is going to pay you more because thre are less of you? Come on, how long have you been drinking their Kool-aid?

 

[strikeforce]

What I find ironic is that many members blame the Int'l for everything when they should turn their focus on their officers. Unions or Associations should have a list of ethical and professional standards for their members (i.e. hold each other accountable and weed out the slackers). Ever get tired of doing someone else's work because they have no business being an A&P? I bet Southwest mechanics who get paid top dollar weed out the slackers before they make through probation.

Guess what? A professional standards system was being proposed but our illustrious presidents did not want that. Why? Local leaders and fellow union members need to hold each other accountable.

Our local leaders need to adapt as well.

The TWU has no internal controls....no standards or expectations. Why doesn't the union weed out the slackers, Overspeed??? You seem to know a lot about the TWU, so why don't you ask your buddies at the INTL?? Accountability??? Are you serious? How about keeping the local & INTL officers accountable for the fiasco that we're in? How about making it easy for the membership to remove or recall INTL officers???

 

[Bob Owens]

You got that one right. WN mechs are a unified bunch and hawkeye a guy through probation. At(most)stations if they detect an attitude from the newhire, they'll start pushing buttons. If they want you gone, they generally succeed in getting you to resign or terminated. They're looking for another racehorse to join the ranks. Not another slackass.

It's pretty much the same way at many Class II stations.

AA picks who they want to hire, but with what they are offering they can't be too selective any more. Its managements job to police the workforce. Anyone who thinks that having the union police the workforce will give us leverage is mistaken, they obviously forgot that when we saved them over $500 million they offered us a concessionary contract.

 

[737823]

What I find ironic is that many members blame the Int'l for everything when they should turn their focus on their officers. Unions or Associations should have a list of ethical and professional standards for their members (i.e. hold each other accountable and weed out the slackers). Ever get tired of doing someone else's work because they have no business being an A&P? I bet Southwest mechanics who get paid top dollar weed out the slackers before they make through probation.

Guess what? A professional standards system was being proposed but our illustrious presidents did not want that. Why? Local leaders and fellow union members need to hold each other accountable.

Our local leaders need to adapt as well.

If the union leadership has proven to be ineffective maybe the membership should consider decertifying the TWU and going non-union. Bob Owens has stated that non-union counterparts at Fedex and JetBlue out earn AA mechanics so why not give it a try? Perhaps if you guys could provide management with productivity gains they'd be willing to improve wages and benefits. The wage you pay a worker and the cost they impose are two different things. Offer management cost savings through productivity and you'll get pay increases.

Josh

 

[strikeforce]

If the union leadership has proven to be ineffective maybe the membership should consider decertifying the TWU and going non-union. Bob Owens has stated that non-union counterparts at Fedex and JetBlue out earn AA mechanics so why not give it a try? Perhaps if you guys could provide management with productivity gains they'd be willing to improve wages and benefits. The wage you pay a worker and the cost they impose are two different things. Offer management cost savings through productivity and you'll get pay increases.

Josh

What kind of productivity gains...be more specific, and just don't use farm out OH because AA could that but it will take a BK filing to do it. The bases are not going to agree to that voluntarily? And, in exchange for these productivity gains is AA willing to pay our mechanics comparable wages and benefits with WN, UPS & Fed EX, and keep our defined pension plan?? I just don't believe they will!

You know I just read the Q&A session regarding 3rd qtr results on jetnet and the company didn't mention maintenance as being the driving factor for higher labor costs.....it's the pilots. Not once did they even mention maintenance beside the 757 retirements.

 

[Frank Szabo]

What kind of productivity gains...be more specific, and just don't use farm out OH because AA could that but it will take a BK filing to do it. The bases are not going to agree to that voluntarily? And, in exchange for these productivity gains is AA willing to pay our mechanics comparable wages and benefits with WN, UPS & Fed EX, and keep our defined pension plan?? I just don't believe they will!

You know I just read the Q&A session regarding 3rd qtr results on jetnet and the company didn't mention maintenance as being the driving factor for higher labor costs.....it's the pilots. Not once did they even mention maintenance beside the 757 retirements.

One issue.

These office apprentices have yet to define this "productivity" thing as it applies to mech & related and related, but they are quite pleased to parrot the word at every opportunity. We have no idea what exactly the company wants - those who admit they aren't employed by AA couldn't' possibly suspect.

 

[strikeforce]

One issue.

These office apprentices have yet to define this "productivity" thing as it applies to mech & related and related, but they are quite pleased to parrot the word at every opportunity. We have no idea what exactly the company wants - those who admit they aren't employed by AA couldn't' possibly suspect.

that's it in a nutshell....nobody seems to know what "productivity gains" means. I don't work at the bases, but on the line the mechanics are assigned jobs by MAPS and MOC. It either gets fixed or deferred due to no parts, manpower or MAPS defers the item before the shift starts. Now, tell me how that's my fault? People seem to forget that management establishes the workload and how the manpower will be distributed, and what work get's deferred. How many times does it happen that the company leaves NFNF airplanes at the gate overnight and at 4am the plane has to go back to the hangar because some bonehead planner or manager didn't look at the FMR. Or how about the convienence moves of airplanes back to the hangar because they couldn't link it up on a trip. That's a waste of fuel, time and manpower. This crap happens all the time. AA is a very inefficient airline and it's not labor that's inefficient......management is extremely inept and really don't have a clue. Like I said numerous times....AA management at ORD recreates the wheel everynight. It's been like this for over 20 years, and no one wants to change things or grab the bull by the horns. When management decides to put compitent people in charge is the day AA will become efficient. Retention of key people doesn't always mean people at the top. We have some pretty smart mechanics, CC, and Tech CC's.

 

[Vortilon]

What I find ironic is that many members blame the Int'l for everything when they should turn their focus on their officers. Unions or Associations should have a list of ethical and professional standards for their members (i.e. hold each other accountable and weed out the slackers). Ever get tired of doing someone else's work because they have no business being an A&P? I bet Southwest mechanics who get paid top dollar weed out the slackers before they make through probation.

Guess what? A professional standards system was being proposed but our illustrious presidents did not want that. Why? Local leaders and fellow union members need to hold each other accountable.

Our local leaders need to adapt as well.
[/quot


Nice attempted segue off the point. Or is that your best effort at the Jedi mind trick. Once again, until Maintenance and related, are free of the TWU manipulating the numbers as to how the company allotted TWU share of the pie is divided, we A&Ps will always be shorted to maintain the status quo. TWU A&Ps are tired of the TWU gulag system. Tired of the TWU using their catch all phrases when referring to A&Ps as maintenance workers. There are the little slights that we shouldn't notice either. Take our so called license pay, look at it this way - it's really only half of what the TWU claims, since just about every other title group gets skill pay. That diminishes the value of the license pay.

Take it a step further, look at the concessions the Aircraft mechanics took in 2003. No other group was saddled with the SK pay deal of half pay for the first two days on all SK occurrences. Look, it's just plain embarrassing being a member of this pathetic excuse of a union. So, listening to some TWU bumkin throwing the standard TWU pearls of wisdom cliches around just pisses me off more.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

Take our so called license pay, look at it this way - it's really only half of what the TWU claims, since just about every other title group gets skill pay. That diminishes the value of the license pay.

The license pay may well place your wages closer to those of the unwashed you seem to despise but the only way the extra money's value could be diminished is in your own mind. Obviously, you want to be "more equal then others" - ie, the difference in pay just isn't enough to make you feel special.

Get over yourself. Others learned a trade also but didn't take three multiple-guess tests to become certificated.

Take it a step further, look at the concessions the Aircraft mechanics took in 2003. No other group was saddled with the SK pay deal of half pay for the first two days on all SK occurrences. Look, it's just plain embarrassing being a member of this pathetic excuse of a union. So, listening to some TWU bumkin throwing the standard TWU pearls of wisdom cliches around just pisses me off more.

Look at the bright side of this - the company, because of this deal where they cut a fat hog in the ass (they thought) circa 2003 is having a tad bit of trouble finding quality people to fill the openings for TWU dues demands. 5 holidays, pitiful sick allotments, six month probation and the like are giving the company access to only those desperate for a job and certainly not the people who will hang around a while should anything else become available in the real world. My heart bleeds purple panther piss for them.

As for the TWU - the membership got to this point thanks to those who have been retired for a number of years with the attitude of selling out the new hires while getting a few perks for themselves - very much like last year's TA. How many sellouts can there be before said sellouts begin to have an effect on the present rank and file? That's where we stand now.

This isn't a fault of the twu - it arrived, thanks to the "efforts" of the "old timers" - the ones we new hires were friendly to.

As for the twu slogans - these show the out of touch attitude these elected fools have. A catchy phrase will not undo the damage cause by a group of bastards in New York City (the home of crappy salsa) whose only desire is to maintain their standard of living at our expense.

 

[Buck]

The license pay may well place your wages closer to those of the unwashed you seem to despise but the only way the extra money's value could be diminished is in your own mind. Obviously, you want to be "more equal then others" - ie, the difference in pay just isn't enough to make you feel special.

The license pay should be aligned with what it reality is. If you have a license or a certification and it is used in your job functions, you should be compensated. If a mechanic is required by the FAA to have his A&P then he should get paid. If a machinist is required to have a certificate it should be the same. It is the company that limits the total number that can be compensated for. I do not know how the machinist jobs are structured, however it is the requirements that should be paid for. When a machinist consistently performs aircraft work he should be compensated. Even if he must be compensated for a trip to the hangar. Skill premiums should not be created out of thin air for all. It might be possible to negotiate a higher base pay if we would stop fighting over license/certificate premiums. This also includes Journeymen, Plumbers and Wielders and other specialists.