TWU negotiations.........what?

[strikeforce]

You failed to bring up all the work that was lost to A&P mechanics but kept within the TWU, work that we consider the same as outsourced.

The TWU is fine, I'm proud of its heritage, not ashamed of Mike Quill and his IRA background either, and I think it does a great job over at SWA, in the Rails and Transit but most of the TWU-AA-ATD is an absolute disaster, and I'm not by any means the only one on the Inside that feels that way. My goal isnt to bring it, and us, down, it's to fix it. The lack of a coherant structure, elected central leader and presence of convoluted rules such as the weighted vote may have been OK when we could ride on the coat tails of other unionized mechanics but not anymore, not now where we will be the setting the standard for the other BK carriers mechanics to follow. Our structure is set up so control lies with the International but they in turn spin the blame onto Local leaders. Tom McDaniels is the elected leader of the Flight Attendants at SWA, his signature can change contracts. John Samuelson is the elected leader of Local 100, his signature can change contracts. Who is the elected leader of the American Airlines Mechanics? How about Stores? How about Fleet Service? The only workgroups at AA that have a single elected leader are the Pilot Instructors, Dispacters, Tech Services and Sim Tech mechanics. But when Bobby Gless signs a letter of agreement his response is not "Yes I signed it because I felt it was the right thing to do" and you cant hold him accountable because you did not put him there. His, and his predecessors inevitable response is, "The Presidents council approved it". Whats left out is what the International does to get it past the council and how the Council voted. Some may have been against it, but you claim that the members should not have the right to know who voted how. You dont even want the members to know how the whole thing is set up. You may claim that the Union should be seen as one, well then you are endorsing misleading the members. You may cite that the company should not be able to see what goes on, well they already know. Two people on the companys side of the table once sat on the Unions side of the table. How does it help the company and hurt the members when the company gets what it wants anyway? How are the members interests protected when they dont even know how their representatives voted? As a member of the other Locals cited if I dont like any of the letters that were signed by any of those Presidents I have the ability to vote that President out, we cant vote out ATD employees.



Who is lying now? I've often cited both Local 100 and 556 in a very positive light. My criticism is usually accompanied by remedy as well.



Actually I made very few post last week and I had no say in picking the place where Negotiations were done. What are you saying, that I shold not have gone? You are so blatently two faced, everyone here knows that if I didnt go then you would claim I abandoned the Stores guys in Negotiations.



Where did I say the APA would fight for us? If AA went BK they would be the main target and they would be the ones to challenge the law. As far as scope, you said it yourself, "current Scope of work", so once we do it it becomes ours, but if we never did it, like the 747SPs we used to send to TWA then its not. The fact is the language is not as ironclad as you claim it is as far as new work. The way it was explained to me back in 2001 is that our "System Protection" is the key provision that secures the work because if they have to keep the workers then they have to keep the work. If we do not lock system protection into DOS then the company could simply allow attrition to reduce the workforce as old aircraft are retired and replaced by Aircraft we never worked, like the 747Sps from TWA. Why dont you talk about that Overspeed? Over a thousand workers would continue to not have system protection with the TA you endorsed and the number with it would shrink every year as those who have it attrit out.



Prove to me that our in house OH is not cost effective and quit claiming to be a Union man while doing the companies job of lowering expectation by saying that unions are weak and workers should just accept whatever the company wants to give them.

Who was the first major unionized carrier to get B-scale?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get employees to pay for their LTD?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get rid of the half hour paid lunch?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get to a 12 year Progression for mechanics?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get to a 9 year progression for mechanics?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get a a four year Junior Mechanic program (effectively agreeing to a 16 year progression for those workers)?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get their mechanics to agree to split the cost of retiree medical between the company and the employee?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to not include the first year of service for the pension plan? The higher formula was sold for years as an achievement when in fact the loss of the year more than wiped out any gain from the higher multiplier.
Who was the first major unionized carrier to only offer one week of paid vacation?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to only give 5 paid holidays and only at half pay if worked?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get SRPs, a permamnent low wage mechanic?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to cut their IOD time by nearly 90%.
Who was the first major unionized carrier to cut their sick time by more than 50%
Those are just some of the industry leading concessions that we are responsible for. Not just the leadership of the International who pushed Local leaders into supporting them but also the misinformed members who were often told things like "We got a me too clause", or "our pension is industry leading" or "the prefunding is guaranteed to be there when you retire, even if AA liquidates".

We have a bad history here at AA. We have lost much of what the people who came before us put in place, they sacrificed to put things in place, we cowered and gave it away without a fight. We need to set things right, not just for us and our families but for those who come after us.

I guess we have our own 99% that are getting screwed!

I will say it again......WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE TWU.....and I will keep saying it everyday until it happens.

 

[wrencher]

I guess we have our own 99% that are getting screwed!

I will say it again......WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE TWU.....and I will keep saying it everyday until it happens.

AMEN BROTHER

 

[Tex-Mech]

He is now in the International stationed in Kansas City but is on the DWH roster.

But yet I am told that he has been getting paid by the company for the past year. He is on the take, and you wonder why there is no fight to reopen MCI.

 

[Overspeed]

Who was the first major unionized carrier to get B-scale?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get employees to pay for their LTD?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get rid of the half hour paid lunch?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get to a 12 year Progression for mechanics?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get to a 9 year progression for mechanics?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get a a four year Junior Mechanic program (effectively agreeing to a 16 year progression for those workers)?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get their mechanics to agree to split the cost of retiree medical between the company and the employee?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to not include the first year of service for the pension plan? The higher formula was sold for years as an achievement when in fact the loss of the year more than wiped out any gain from the higher multiplier.
Who was the first major unionized carrier to only offer one week of paid vacation?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to only give 5 paid holidays and only at half pay if worked?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get SRPs, a permamnent low wage mechanic?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to cut their IOD time by nearly 90%.
Who was the first major unionized carrier to cut their sick time by more than 50%
Those are just some of the industry leading concessions that we are responsible for. Not just the leadership of the International who pushed Local leaders into supporting them but also the misinformed members who were often told things like "We got a me too clause", or "our pension is industry leading" or "the prefunding is guaranteed to be there when you retire, even if AA liquidates".

We have a bad history here at AA. We have lost much of what the people who came before us put in place, they sacrificed to put things in place, we cowered and gave it away without a fight. We need to set things right, not just for us and our families but for those who come after us.

B-scale was brought to you by Lee Seham (AMFA craft union lawyer) at the APA (fired) at AA first. They broke the barrier, not the TWU.

LTD - don't know but where are your facts?

PL - That was CAL after they broke the IAM

12 year pay scale - CAL after they broke the union

9 year - don't know.

AA had apprentice mechanics for a long time. CAL and DL had mechanic helpers which aren't even AMTs long before AA

Retiree medical - CAL after they broke the union

Pension one year no credit - don't know. Our pension plan pays out more considering almost all either had theirs frozen or terminated.

Holidays - we own that one. I guess its better than having a 365 day holiday with no pay though.

SRPs - CAL had them before us with the helper program. The others just outsourced the work driving the TWU to make a decision to let it be outsourced or insourced through the SRP system. Those people can upgrade to AMT with Title I seniority. Not so when outsourced.

IOD pay - don't know.

SK time - CAL after they broke the union

Bob, you twist and distort again or i.e. you continue to lie. We own some of it, but not all of it and in the greater context, we have over 11,500 people working where others have half that after the benevolent BK judge "helped" them out. No pension, no job, no benefits, etc... great deal. NOT!

 

[Buck]

But yet I am told that he has been getting paid by the company for the past year. He is on the take, and you wonder why there is no fight to reopen MCI.

Maybe I can get an International Position and live in Hawaii and be on the roster in Tibet?

 

[TWU informer]

B-scale was brought to you by Lee Seham (AMFA craft union lawyer) at the APA (fired) at AA first. They broke the barrier, not the TWU.

LTD - don't know but where are your facts?

PL - That was CAL after they broke the IAM

12 year pay scale - CAL after they broke the union

9 year - don't know.

AA had apprentice mechanics for a long time. CAL and DL had mechanic helpers which aren't even AMTs long before AA

Retiree medical - CAL after they broke the union

Pension one year no credit - don't know. Our pension plan pays out more considering almost all either had theirs frozen or terminated.

Holidays - we own that one. I guess its better than having a 365 day holiday with no pay though.

SRPs - CAL had them before us with the helper program. The others just outsourced the work driving the TWU to make a decision to let it be outsourced or insourced through the SRP system. Those people can upgrade to AMT with Title I seniority. Not so when outsourced.

IOD pay - don't know.

SK time - CAL after they broke the union

Bob, you twist and distort again or i.e. you continue to lie. We own some of it, but not all of it and in the greater context, we have over 11,500 people working where others have half that after the benevolent BK judge "helped" them out. No pension, no job, no benefits, etc... great deal. NOT!

I challenge you to prove this BS!

Since I know you will run and hide instead, I can blow a big hole in assertions that CAL had many of these concessions first.

First bankruptcy & labor relations (1983–1984)

Frank Lorenzo took Continental into Chapter 11 bankruptcy on September 23, 1983, after unsuccessfully attempting to negotiate a lower pay rate with labor unions. This saved the company from liquidation, but required substantial reorganization, which began immediately. Following bankruptcy, Continental was freed of its contractual obligations and imposed a series of new labor agreements on its union workers, sharply reducing the airline's labor costs at the cost of employee morale.[22] This move made Continental vastly more competitive with the new airline startups then emerging and thriving in the southwestern U.S., but had notable negative impact on employee attitudes and loyalty. The airline's decision to take bankruptcy worked—by the end of 1984, Continental recorded a $50 million profit. On June 30, 1986, Continental emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Pilots went on strike in 1983, but were unsuccessful due to Continental pilots and new hires who crossed the picket line.[23]

Now I hired in September 26th 1983 as a B-Scale employee with a 12 1/2 year progression to top pay. The TWU/AA B-Scale agreement became effective Feb 11th, 1983.
Given that Continental filed for Bankruptcy in September of 1983, not only are you the one telling lies, but this information shows that TWU led concessions caused other Airlines to go Bankrupt because their employees refused to match the TWU leading the industry in reverse.

If you ask me, this sounds very much like the TWU Concessions of 2003 that also caused other airlines to file Bankruptcy.

No matter how you score it though, CAL did not lead when they broke the union as you claim.

So exactly who is it that twisting and telling lies here?

ANSWER = YOU

 

[AV1]

Saw an article showing highlights of Alaska Airlines AMT agreement, not all that impressive if it was correct.

 

[odie01]

Saw an article showing highlights of Alaska Airlines AMT agreement, not all that impressive if it was correct.

Really?



I’m pleased to announce that we have reached a tentative agreement worthy of your consideration. There will be an official update out shortly, but I wanted to give everyone a quick overview.

5 year contract

Job protection for all covered employees for the duration of the agreement

7.1% pay increase at DOS bring us to #2 in the industry

1.5% pay increases in down line years with an internal and external pay review

8% medical premium caps

Wellness program LOA

Enhanced merger protection language

Vacation buyback program

Charter, irregular ops, and TDY language

$1500.00 Signing bonus

There is much more to discuss, a more complete list of the changes, and the complete contract language will be available soon. Road shows will commence shortly after.

Fraternally,

Timothy M Cullen
Hangar Line Avionics Lead
Airline Representative
AMFA Local 14"

 

[787nightmare]

I challenge you to prove this BS!

Since I know you will run and hide instead, I can blow a big hole in assertions that CAL had many of these concessions first.




Now I hired in September 26th 1983 as a B-Scale employee with a 12 1/2 year progression to top pay. The TWU/AA B-Scale agreement became effective Feb 11th, 1983.
Given that Continental filed for Bankruptcy in September of 1983, not only are you the one telling lies, but this information shows that TWU led concessions caused other Airlines to go Bankrupt because their employees refused to match the TWU leading the industry in reverse.

If you ask me, this sounds very much like the TWU Concessions of 2003 that also caused other airlines to file Bankruptcy.

No matter how you score it though, CAL did not lead when they broke the union as you claim.

So exactly who is it that twisting and telling lies here?

ANSWER = YOU

Btw, I had paid lunches with NWA 92-98 while was there. I was also at CAL 88-92 fresh out of a/p school. Shitty place to be. But looking back now...? Not a bad place to be now.

Also, for the sake of raising the wages for us in this business, I'd rather take a lay-off and hit the street in order for the American mechs to get a fair deal. If that's what it came down to.
Wouldn't be the first time and I don't think I'd be out too long anyway at this juncture.

 

[AV1]

Really?



I’m pleased to announce that we have reached a tentative agreement worthy of your consideration. There will be an official update out shortly, but I wanted to give everyone a quick overview.

5 year contract

Job protection for all covered employees for the duration of the agreement

7.1% pay increase at DOS bring us to #2 in the industry

1.5% pay increases in down line years with an internal and external pay review

8% medical premium caps

Wellness program LOA

Enhanced merger protection language

Vacation buyback program

Charter, irregular ops, and TDY language

$1500.00 Signing bonus

There is much more to discuss, a more complete list of the changes, and the complete contract language will be available soon. Road shows will commence shortly after.

Fraternally,

Timothy M Cullen
Hangar Line Avionics Lead
Airline Representative
AMFA Local 14"

Don't have it in front of me, but what is the approx. top out. If I remember, it was around $38 or $39 an hour with ALL the shift and license premiums. I am not sure where most of their mechanics are located, haven't researched that, but wages like this living in California or Washington state area isn't all that great. Might be wrong on this.

 

[Buck]

Don't have it in front of me, but what is the approx. top out. If I remember, it was around $38 or $39 an hour with ALL the shift and license premiums. I am not sure where most of their mechanics are located, haven't researched that, but wages like this living in California or Washington state area isn't all that great. Might be wrong on this.

Where are we at AA? The mechanics at Alaska have a T/A before the amendable date of their contract. When was our amendable date?

 

[odie01]

Don't have it in front of me, but what is the approx. top out. If I remember, it was around $38 or $39 an hour with ALL the shift and license premiums. I am not sure where most of their mechanics are located, haven't researched that, but wages like this living in California or Washington state area isn't all that great. Might be wrong on this.

I have the contract but couldn't upload, here are the highlights.

5year deal
31.40 dos
33.32 end of contract
4.25 two license
10 holidays
1.25 line pay
cola
6 week VC after 20 years
12 sk days
.51 aft , .58 mid diff.
401k match
X1.5, 2X OT

If you have any more questions contact your local AMP rep.

 

[AV1]

I have the contract but couldn't upload, here are the highlights.

5year deal
31.40 dos
33.32 end of contract
4.25 two license
10 holidays
1.25 line pay
cola
6 week VC after 20 years
12 sk days
.51 aft , .58 mid diff.
401k match
X1.5, 2X OT

If you have any more questions contact your local AMP rep.

Not counting FedEx or UPS, to be claiming number 2 in the industry, not that great. An A & P working the line with 2 licenses, working mid. and probably odd days makes 39.40 in high cost areas at the END of the contract. Just saying, far from what I expected.

 

[Overspeed]

I challenge you to prove this BS!

So exactly who is it that twisting and telling lies here?

ANSWER = YOU

Me run? Never!!!

Here you go. Was not the TWU that brought on B Scale first.

The B-Scale Plague
American Airlines adopted the benchmark B-scale in 1983, permanently reducing pay for newly hired pilots by 50 percent. In fact, under the AA system—negotiated while the Seham firm sat on the labor side of the table—pay rates and pensions for new employees would never merge with those of then-current employees.

Martin Seham wrote proudly of this accomplishment in Cleared for Takeoff: Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation.

As general counsel to the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent certified representative of the American Airlines pilots, I was close to the negotiations that resulted, in 1983, in the earliest realization of the two-tier system. APA was not faced with an insolvent or failing carrier; it was, however, forced to deal with an economic environment that had changed dramatically because of the effects of deregulation and was, by virtue of its independence, mandated to reach an agreement consistent with the needs and objectives of its constituency. — Martin C. Seham


Although B-scales were not a new concept, their initial format was unique to the airline industry. Following American’s lead, other airlines began to demand similar packages—forcing the entire airline labor movement into a new era of concessions. Good for management; bad for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, and all of the airline industry’s workers.

While ALPA pilots were forced to deal with this blight brought to the industry by APA and the Sehams, not one ALPA pilot group accepted a non-merging two-tier scale. The clearest example of this was the ALPA strike at United in June 1985, when the pilots refused to agree to a non-merging two-tier pay scale.

Ironically, it was ALPA’s success in preventing implementation of the Seham B-scale at UAL that led to the Rakestraw case, where replacement pilots who crossed the picket line attempted to reverse ALPA’s successful efforts to negotiate seniority protection for hundreds of pro-ALPA new-hires who had refused management’s demand to become strikebreakers. DPA’s law firm now misinterprets and misrepresents this case—in which ALPA protected pilots who adhered to union principle and honored picket lines—as somehow giving it carte blanche to change seniority as it sees fit. To read more, click here.

In fact, following ALPA’s win at United, ALPA pilot groups, through their strength at the bargaining table, led the effort to eliminate the B-scale structure. They did it by working together, forging a pattern and sticking to it—the same way ALPA pilots throughout our industry are working to rebuild our contracts after the era of bankruptcy and ATSB constraints.

 

[Overspeed]

Btw, I had paid lunches with NWA 92-98 while was there. I was also at CAL 88-92 fresh out of a/p school. Shitty place to be. But looking back now...? Not a bad place to be now.

Also, for the sake of raising the wages for us in this business, I'd rather take a lay-off and hit the street in order for the American mechs to get a fair deal. If that's what it came down to.
Wouldn't be the first time and I don't think I'd be out too long anyway at this juncture.

So you worked at a company during the period they gutted EAL and broke the IAM? That's awesome!