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TWU negotiations.........what?

Bob and Chuck tell the truth? Really? I guess it is based on a person's perspective

If the TWU scope language was so bad why has AA not outsourced like mad? NWA started the outsourcing under the IAM and then completed the deal when AMFA decided that it was in their members best interests to strike a near BK airline. Well I guess the AMTs won if you say they got full pay to the last day. It is doubtful, of highly unlikely that all or most of the former NWA AMTs got new jobs at $34 plus an hour. But you could use the standard cop out that they would have gone BK anyway.

People like Bob, Pike, Chuck, Ken, JR, Peterson, and Schiable is that they made a error and judgment in over promising and now not being able to deliver. So now the only thing they can do is blame the Int'l and the company for their failures. They attempt to come out clean by saying the politically correct "union" answer that they are fighters and the company was going to claim BK anyway. If the company doesn't and the union settles then they again blame the Int'l as being soft and the company scamming the members again.

Wake up to the fact that these people have an audience and power only if the members don't pin them down and expose their BS. If not, then maybe we deserve whatever we get, good or bad.

Please quote the language that stops them from outsourcing "like mad". I don't know of any substantial improvements to scope from 2001 and back then we outsourced more than most of the majors. Most of them had to go BK to compete with AA and their OSMs, long progressions, pre- funding, employee contributions to Medical and loss of the first year towards the pension. Industry leading concessions that AA enjoyed for many years that competitors did not enjoy.

Please show us where any of us made any promises? I think we all realize that as Presidents none of us has the ability to deliver anything as far as a contract, that argument has been settled in several court cases. The fact is the International owns the contract, all we can do is keep the membership informed so they don't accept a bad deal, again. The fact is that the International could send us all home, the only reason they don't is because they know they could never sell the deals without the Presidents selling it. Any illusions as to who really negotiates the contract were dispelled when Don Videtich walked in with Spin off language that was accepted by the company before the negotiating committee ever even saw it.

The fact is this union is soft on the company. Look at what's going on with the pilots. They will likely have a deal soon, why? Because the company needs some changes to deal with the shortage of pilots and language to fly new aircraft. The APA said no side deals, settle the contract. A year ago AA was in a bind, they did away with the Junior Mechanic program in 2001, so when they needed mechanics on the line and contractually they had to offer the vaccines from within they were faced with the fact that the guy who was entitled did not have the experience required, so everything came to a grinding halt. Instead of telling the company too bad, let's settle it at the table the TWU settled the 29D by allowing the company to do change the QAM and lower the experience requirement to zero. Same thing with Anti- trust immunity. Whatever this company wants from the TWU the International makes sure they gets.

Now comes the BK scare tactics, no doubt the International will barrage the Presidents Council this week with doom and gloom about BK, the fact is that we have no control over that anyway and the $ 190 million a year we were asking for isn't enough to make a trip to BK worth it. The unions basically fell flat, all of them, during the 2002-05 BK frenzy. The AFA did challenge it, but never followed through by bringing the case to the Supreme Court. Maybe, if they do file, (which I don't think they will) we will be the ones to do it, then again if they do file the pilots will be the ones with the most to lose so we could ride on their coat tails, but no real union would tolerate allowing a Judge to order their members to work under terms they did not negotiate and were set with only the companies interests in mind.
 
They take 230 jobs out of Kansas City add them to DWH then outsource the work because they don't have room what the hell do you think I'm saying You think families like moving around the globe?.
The farmed out the work because the yields are off for the 757. (the company's words). The 230 jobs were not from Kansas City, they were from Tulsa and those people do not like moving either. Are you suggesting that there were only 230 jobs lost at Kansas City when AA bought TWA? Take it easy, no one here can improve your circumstance. But I believe I might know what the union might say, they can do that brother.
 
Please quote the language that stops them from outsourcing "like mad". I don't know of any substantial improvements to scope from 2001 and back then we outsourced more than most of the majors. Most of them had to go BK to compete with AA and their OSMs, long progressions, pre- funding, employee contributions to Medical and loss of the first year towards the pension. Industry leading concessions that AA enjoyed for many years that competitors did not enjoy.

Please show us where any of us made any promises? I think we all realize that as Presidents none of us has the ability to deliver anything as far as a contract, that argument has been settled in several court cases. The fact is the International owns the contract, all we can do is keep the membership informed so they don't accept a bad deal, again. The fact is that the International could send us all home, the only reason they don't is because they know they could never sell the deals without the Presidents selling it. Any illusions as to who really negotiates the contract were dispelled when Don Videtich walked in with Spin off language that was accepted by the company before the negotiating committee ever even saw it.

The fact is this union is soft on the company. Look at what's going on with the pilots. They will likely have a deal soon, why? Because the company needs some changes to deal with the shortage of pilots and language to fly new aircraft. The APA said no side deals, settle the contract. A year ago AA was in a bind, they did away with the Junior Mechanic program in 2001, so when they needed mechanics on the line and contractually they had to offer the vaccines from within they were faced with the fact that the guy who was entitled did not have the experience required, so everything came to a grinding halt. Instead of telling the company too bad, let's settle it at the table the TWU settled the 29D by allowing the company to do change the QAM and lower the experience requirement to zero. Same thing with Anti- trust immunity. Whatever this company wants from the TWU the International makes sure they gets.

Now comes the BK scare tactics, no doubt the International will barrage the Presidents Council this week with doom and gloom about BK, the fact is that we have no control over that anyway and the $ 190 million a year we were asking for isn't enough to make a trip to BK worth it. The unions basically fell flat, all of them, during the 2002-05 BK frenzy. The AFA did challenge it, but never followed through by bringing the case to the Supreme Court. Maybe, if they do file, (which I don't think they will) we will be the ones to do it, then again if they do file the pilots will be the ones with the most to lose so we could ride on their coat tails, but no real union would tolerate allowing a Judge to order their members to work under terms they did not negotiate and were set with only the companies interests in mind.

Bob in the first paragraph you blatantly lie. AA in the past 30 years has never outsourced like the others. UA, NW, US, HP, WN, DL, etc...the list goes one and on. Read the DOT information in the form 41s, look at the MIT site and not one of them backs up your assertion. You lie all the time.

The scope language is very clear, AA cannot outsource more than it's current practice. AA has outsourced in the past as much as 20% of its work but now does more inside than out.

You undermine the organized labor at every turn. If the TWU is that bad then you should not "lower" yourself to be on the inside. I would not be surprise if bringing down this union is your goal.

You have not said one thing positive about any union on this bulletin board. You talk trash about the AFL-CIO, IBT, IAM, TWU, and every other union affiliated with the AFL-CIO. Is this your form of leadership, to talk trash about your organization until what? You destroy it? And then what?

Bob I hope you enjoyed your junket on the west coast at the expense of your membership. You spent most of your time posting in this bulletin board or running to the beach I bet. Such a hypocrite, you belittle the others for what you do yourself.

Keep lying and distorting Bob. The facts are out there but you will continue to twist them in to your warped perception of the truth. Fox News has a job for you as one of their stock market analysts when you get is a great contract.

And Bob, seriously we are going to ride on the APA's coat tails. Didn't you read the APA PEB? The APA offered as a way to get paid more to have AA contract the maintenance work on the new fleet types. The APA interpretation of the TWU scope language was that if we didn't work on an aircraft type at the CBA DOS AA had the right to contract it out. Yeah, the APA had our back didn't they? Your delusional.

On AA having industry leading concessions you must be eating some good mushrooms. So keeping work in-house with pay cut 17.5% was worse than having your pay cut 100% like the airframe overhaul mechanics at UA, DL, US, and NW? Okay, let's ask TUL and AFW if they are willing to do that so line can get up to $7/hourly more.
 
If the TWU scope language was so bad why has AA not outsourced like mad?

Because the TWU keeps licking the company boot and has given them $9.00 per hour OSM's, and flushed 20+ year AMT's from the shops, all the while upgrading unskilled bulidng cleaners into skilled positions.

Why outsource when you have a payscale lower than the vendors? It is not the scope language that has prevented outsource like mad, it is the pay that qualifies union workers for welfare and government entitlements.

And never forget

ARTICLE 1 – RECOGNITION AND SCOPE

2) It is understood that nothing in this Article requires the maintenance of the present volume of work.


Given the latest losses in arbitration on outsourced work, the scope language has now been codified.
Look for more bootlicking as the only way to keep more outosurcing from taking place.
 
Excuse me if I am wrong here but AA is in the low flying season, they reduced their flying schedule twice because of Pilot shortages, they announced the retirement of 757's next year. So why the outsourcing of the 757's? Could it be they are trying to scare the TWU membership into accepting a contract in fear of losing overhaul? Will the International and the negotiating committee fall for this negotiating tactic? It is so obvious that AA does not need to outsource. Lets see what happens this month at the next round of negotiations. I wonder if the company and TWU will throw a take it or leave it package.
 
Excuse me if I am wrong here but AA is in the low flying season, they reduced their flying schedule twice because of Pilot shortages, they announced the retirement of 757's next year. So why the outsourcing of the 757's? Could it be they are trying to scare the TWU membership into accepting a contract in fear of losing overhaul? Will the International and the negotiating committee fall for this negotiating tactic? It is so obvious that AA does not need to outsource. Lets see what happens this month at the next round of negotiations. I wonder if the company and TWU will throw a take it or leave it package.
Remember the "union" said they were going to ask for release after the next time they didn't get what they want?

My guess is this time the company will agree and give the mediator the go-ahead to declare an impasse starting the countdown to a strike. A strike that continues through their "dead" season will save much money for the company in wages, benefits, and probably play into other plans Centrepork has for the rabble on the floor.

The "take it or leave it" package seems to be to next step.

The 757 outsource had more to do with aircraft that had maintenance deferred until they ran out of time more than anything else I believe.
 
Excuse me if I am wrong here but AA is in the low flying season, they reduced their flying schedule twice because of Pilot shortages, they announced the retirement of 757's next year. So why the outsourcing of the 757's? Could it be they are trying to scare the TWU membership into accepting a contract in fear of losing overhaul? Will the International and the negotiating committee fall for this negotiating tactic? It is so obvious that AA does not need to outsource. Lets see what happens this month at the next round of negotiations. I wonder if the company and TWU will throw a take it or leave it package.
Yes, Yes and Yes.

Outsourcing: From the meetings I am allowed to attend, it appears that the yield for the 757 is in trouble. The information given is that there is no hangar space to perform the maintenance. As for a location, I realize that many on here would like to see Kansas City reopened, however that has not been discussed. In TUL there has been an increase in the 737 work. In fact the company is modding the existing hangars to accomodate the aircraft.

As for the contract and outsourcing. Will the union roll over? Most likely. Afterall what is more important, the number of employees paying dues at a higher wage or just the number of employees paying dues?

And Yes.
 
You made the claim that should a vendor run over on the days that AA would not be charged, I questioned that based on my experience over the years working in one of those shops and as a stock clerk receiving parts, along with the invoices, from several vendors. If a load of corrosion is found and that results in a the aircraft sitting and being worked in a shop I doubt that the vendor isn't going to charge for that, if what you claim is true then the vendor more than likely built hat into he price already.

I'd already stated that if the scope of work changed (e.g. unexpected damage or excessive corrosion), that AA would pay the difference.

If a vendor doesn't finish ontime because they're slow or understaffed, they eat the difference, if not pay a penalty. That's what SLA's are there for.
 
You made the claim that should a vendor run over on the days that AA would not be charged, I questioned that based on my experience over the years working in one of those shops and as a stock clerk receiving parts, along with the invoices, from several vendors. If a load of corrosion is found and that results in a the aircraft sitting and being worked in a shop I doubt that the vendor isn't going to charge for that, if what you claim is true then the vendor more than likely built hat into he price already.

I'd already stated that if the scope of work changed (e.g. unexpected damage or excessive corrosion), that AA would pay the difference.

If a vendor doesn't finish ontime because they're slow or understaffed, they eat the difference, if not pay a penalty. That's what SLA's are there for.
 
I'd already stated that if the scope of work changed (e.g. unexpected damage or excessive corrosion), that AA would pay the difference.

If a vendor doesn't finish ontime because they're slow or understaffed, they eat the difference, if not pay a penalty. That's what SLA's are there for.

Didnt see that in the post, and I'm told the reason why AA is so backed up is because of unexpected findings such as corrosion, cracks etc. So what was the point of your post?
 
Yes, Yes and Yes.

Outsourcing: From the meetings I am allowed to attend, it appears that the yield for the 757 is in trouble. The information given is that there is no hangar space to perform the maintenance. As for a location, I realize that many on here would like to see Kansas City reopened, however that has not been discussed. In TUL there has been an increase in the 737 work. In fact the company is modding the existing hangars to accomodate the aircraft.

As for the contract and outsourcing. Will the union roll over? Most likely. Afterall what is more important, the number of employees paying dues at a higher wage or just the number of employees paying dues?

And Yes.
I do belive the local 514 and local 530 president did discuss the hangers at MCI before the decision to outsource.
 
I do belive the local 514 and local 530 president did discuss the hangers at MCI before the decision to outsource.
Was the company in any of those discussions?

Why is there still a Local 530 president?
 
You undermine the organized labor at every turn. If the TWU is that bad then you should not "lower" yourself to be on the inside. I would not be surprise if bringing down this union is your goal.

You failed to bring up all the work that was lost to A&P mechanics but kept within the TWU, work that we consider the same as outsourced.

The TWU is fine, I'm proud of its heritage, not ashamed of Mike Quill and his IRA background either, and I think it does a great job over at SWA, in the Rails and Transit but most of the TWU-AA-ATD is an absolute disaster, and I'm not by any means the only one on the Inside that feels that way. My goal isnt to bring it, and us, down, it's to fix it. The lack of a coherant structure, elected central leader and presence of convoluted rules such as the weighted vote may have been OK when we could ride on the coat tails of other unionized mechanics but not anymore, not now where we will be the setting the standard for the other BK carriers mechanics to follow. Our structure is set up so control lies with the International but they in turn spin the blame onto Local leaders. Tom McDaniels is the elected leader of the Flight Attendants at SWA, his signature can change contracts. John Samuelson is the elected leader of Local 100, his signature can change contracts. Who is the elected leader of the American Airlines Mechanics? How about Stores? How about Fleet Service? The only workgroups at AA that have a single elected leader are the Pilot Instructors, Dispacters, Tech Services and Sim Tech mechanics. But when Bobby Gless signs a letter of agreement his response is not "Yes I signed it because I felt it was the right thing to do" and you cant hold him accountable because you did not put him there. His, and his predecessors inevitable response is, "The Presidents council approved it". Whats left out is what the International does to get it past the council and how the Council voted. Some may have been against it, but you claim that the members should not have the right to know who voted how. You dont even want the members to know how the whole thing is set up. You may claim that the Union should be seen as one, well then you are endorsing misleading the members. You may cite that the company should not be able to see what goes on, well they already know. Two people on the companys side of the table once sat on the Unions side of the table. How does it help the company and hurt the members when the company gets what it wants anyway? How are the members interests protected when they dont even know how their representatives voted? As a member of the other Locals cited if I dont like any of the letters that were signed by any of those Presidents I have the ability to vote that President out, we cant vote out ATD employees.

You have not said one thing positive about any union on this bulletin board. You talk trash about the AFL-CIO, IBT, IAM, TWU, and every other union affiliated with the AFL-CIO. Is this your form of leadership, to talk trash about your organization until what? You destroy it? And then what?

Who is lying now? I've often cited both Local 100 and 556 in a very positive light. My criticism is usually accompanied by remedy as well.

Bob I hope you enjoyed your junket on the west coast at the expense of your membership. You spent most of your time posting in this bulletin board or running to the beach I bet. Such a hypocrite, you belittle the others for what you do yourself.

Actually I made very few post last week and I had no say in picking the place where Negotiations were done. What are you saying, that I shold not have gone? You are so blatently two faced, everyone here knows that if I didnt go then you would claim I abandoned the Stores guys in Negotiations.

And Bob, seriously we are going to ride on the APA's coat tails. Didn't you read the APA PEB? The APA offered as a way to get paid more to have AA contract the maintenance work on the new fleet types. The APA interpretation of the TWU scope language was that if we didn't work on an aircraft type at the CBA DOS AA had the right to contract it out. Yeah, the APA had our back didn't they? Your delusional.

Where did I say the APA would fight for us? If AA went BK they would be the main target and they would be the ones to challenge the law. As far as scope, you said it yourself, "current Scope of work", so once we do it it becomes ours, but if we never did it, like the 747SPs we used to send to TWA then its not. The fact is the language is not as ironclad as you claim it is as far as new work. The way it was explained to me back in 2001 is that our "System Protection" is the key provision that secures the work because if they have to keep the workers then they have to keep the work. If we do not lock system protection into DOS then the company could simply allow attrition to reduce the workforce as old aircraft are retired and replaced by Aircraft we never worked, like the 747Sps from TWA. Why dont you talk about that Overspeed? Over a thousand workers would continue to not have system protection with the TA you endorsed and the number with it would shrink every year as those who have it attrit out.

On AA having industry leading concessions you must be eating some good mushrooms. So keeping work in-house with pay cut 17.5% was worse than having your pay cut 100% like the airframe overhaul mechanics at UA, DL, US, and NW? Okay, let's ask TUL and AFW if they are willing to do that so line can get up to $7/hourly more.

Prove to me that our in house OH is not cost effective and quit claiming to be a Union man while doing the companies job of lowering expectation by saying that unions are weak and workers should just accept whatever the company wants to give them.

Who was the first major unionized carrier to get B-scale?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get employees to pay for their LTD?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get rid of the half hour paid lunch?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get to a 12 year Progression for mechanics?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get to a 9 year progression for mechanics?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get a a four year Junior Mechanic program (effectively agreeing to a 16 year progression for those workers)?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get their mechanics to agree to split the cost of retiree medical between the company and the employee?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to not include the first year of service for the pension plan? The higher formula was sold for years as an achievement when in fact the loss of the year more than wiped out any gain from the higher multiplier.
Who was the first major unionized carrier to only offer one week of paid vacation?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to only give 5 paid holidays and only at half pay if worked?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get SRPs, a permamnent low wage mechanic?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to cut their IOD time by nearly 90%.
Who was the first major unionized carrier to cut their sick time by more than 50%
Those are just some of the industry leading concessions that we are responsible for. Not just the leadership of the International who pushed Local leaders into supporting them but also the misinformed members who were often told things like "We got a me too clause", or "our pension is industry leading" or "the prefunding is guaranteed to be there when you retire, even if AA liquidates".

We have a bad history here at AA. We have lost much of what the people who came before us put in place, they sacrificed to put things in place, we cowered and gave it away without a fight. We need to set things right, not just for us and our families but for those who come after us.
 
You failed to bring up all the work that was lost to mechanics but kept within the TWU, work that we consider the same as outsourced.

The TWU is fine, I'm proud of its heritage, not ashamed of Mike Quill and his IRA background either, and I think it does a great job over at SWA, in the Rails and Transit but most of the TWU-AA-ATD is an absolute disaster, and I'm not by any means the only one on the Inside that feels that way. My goal isnt to bring it, and us, down, it's to fix it. The lack of a coherant structure, central leader and presence of convoluted rules such as the weighted vote may have been OK when we could ride on the coat tails of other unionized mechanics but not anymore, not now where we will be the seting the standard for the other BK carriers to follow. Our structure is set up so control lies with the International but they in turn spin the blame onto Local leaders. Tom McDaniels is the elected leader of the Flight Attendants at SWA, his signature can change contracts. John Samuelson is the elected leader of Local 100, his signature can change contracts. Who is the elected leader of the American Airlines Aircraft Mechanics? How about Stores? How about Fleet Service? The only workgroups at AA that have a single elected leader are the Pilot Instructors, Dispacters, Tech Services and Sim Tech mechanics. But when Bobby Gless signs a letter of agreement his response is not "Yes I signed it because I felt it was the right thing to do" and you cant hold him accountable because you did not put him there. His, and his predecessors inevitable response was, "The Presidents council approved it". Some may have been against it, but you claim that the members should not have the right to know who voted how. You dont even want the members to know how the whole thing is set up.



Who is lying now? I've often cited both Local 100 and 556 in a very positive light. My criticism is usually accompanied by remedy as well.



Actually I made very few post last week and I had no say in picking the place where Negotiations were done. What are you saying, that I shold not have gone? You are so blatently two faced, everyone here knows that if I didnt go then you would claim I abandoned the Stores guys in Negotiations.



Where did I say the APA would fight for us? If AA went BK they would be the main target and they would be the ones to challenge the law. As far as scope, you said it yourself, "current Scope of work", so once we do it it becomes ours, but if we never did it, like the 747SPs we used to send to TWA then its not. The fact is the language is not as ironclad as you claim it is as far as new work. The way it was explained to me back in 2001 is that our "System Protection" is the key provision that secures the work because if they have to keep the workers then they have to keep the work. If we do not lock system protection into DOS then the company could simply allow attrition to reduce the workforce as old aircraft are retired and replaced by Aircraft we never worked, like the 747Sps from TWA. Why dont you talk about that Overspeed? Over a thousand workers would continue to not have system protection with the TA you endorsed and the number with it would shrink every year as those who have it attrit out.



Prove to me that our in house OH is not cost effective and quit claiming to be a Union man while doing the companies job of lowering expectation by saying that unions are weak and workers should just accept whatever the company wants to give them.

Who was the first major unionized carrier to get B-scale?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get employees to pay for their LTD?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get rid of the half hour paid lunch?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get to a 12 year Progression for mechanics?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get to a 9 year progression for mechanics?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get a a four year Junior Mechanic program (effectively agreeing to a 16 year progression for those workers)?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get their mechanics to agree to split the cost of retiree medical between the company and the employee?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to not include the first year of service for the pension plan? The higher formula was sold for years as an achievement when in fact the loss of the year more than wiped out any gain from the higher multiplier.
Who was the first major unionized carrier to only offer one week of paid vacation?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to only give 5 paid holidays and only at half pay if worked?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to get SRPs, a permamnent low wage mechanic?
Who was the first major unionized carrier to cut their IOD time by nearly 90%.
Who was the first major unionized carrier to cut their sick time by more than 50%
Those are just some of the industry leading concessions that we are responsible for. Not just the leadership of the International who pushed Local leaders into supporting them but also the misinformed members who were often told things like "We got a me too clause", or "our pension is industry leading" or "the prefunding is guaranteed to be there when you retire, even if AA liquidates".

We have a bad history here at AA. We have lost much of what the people who came before us put in place, they sacrificed to put things in place, we cowered and gave it away without a fight. We need to set things right, not just for us and our families but for those who come after us.
Very good Bob. But there is one thing that caught my attention since I hired in 1984. The B-Scale. I was initiated in the 1983 cintract and why were union members so set on cutting the throat of the unhired? Was this one of Ed Wilson's gains?
 

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