TWU negotiations.........what?

[Bob Owens]

I see the different skills required , But I don't see us being called SKILLED LABOR. but i will look when I have more time.


and heres something for bob to chew onrojected growth (2008-2018) Slower than average (3% to 6%)
Projected job openings (2008-2018) 31,400

Funny, Boeing predicted a lot more, still at 31400 and only with only 3000 A&P certs issued a year the industry will fall short.

I think Boeing was closer to the mark.
AA alone loses around 500 a year. They employ around 9500 aircraft mechanics, So AA loses around 5% of their mechanic on any given year. 2008 employment for the industry was 122,000 and just attrition driven demand would require around 6000 new mechanics per year with zero growth, so just to make up for attrition they would need at least 60,000 new mechanics, with their projection of only 3% growth they would need another 3660 mechanics per year. So I would say, using their projections the industry will need around 90000 new A& Ps from 2008 to 2018, at least triple he number the FAA is certifying, keep in mind that not all the people who get licensed actually use it for a career. Many pilots get certified so they can work on their own planes, there are over 230,000 registered aircraft in this country.

 

[eolesen]

How do you know what Timco charges ?

Unlike you, I didn't pull a number out of my ass. Consulting is a very small community at times, and you know how AMR loves to bring in consultants...

 

[OldBubba]

TWA Pilots win Lawsuit!!!!! Thats why thier back to the table!!!!!!

http://www.dallasnew...their-union.ece

Who going to pay!!!!!! AMR, APA or both?

The pie just getting smaller an smaller for the TWU

 

[Birdman]

Unlike you, I didn't pull a number out of my ass. Consulting is a very small community at times, and you know how AMR loves to bring in consultants...

But are these numbers protected under a "confidentiality agreement"? Are the airlines protective of this kind of information, even to the point of a proclamation that "The jury is still out"?

 

[FWAAA]

TWA Pilots win Lawsuit!!!!! Thats why thier back to the table!!!!!!

http://www.dallasnew...their-union.ece

Who going to pay!!!!!! AMR, APA or both?

The pie just getting smaller an smaller for the TWU

Reading is fundamental. The TWA pilots sued ALPA, not AMR and not APA.

 

[eolesen]

But are these numbers protected under a "confidentiality agreement"? Are the airlines protective of this kind of information, even to the point of a proclamation that "The jury is still out"?

Can't speak for how other firms construct their NDAs, but in our engagements, typically only the data provided by AMR and our findings are considered protected under an NDA. Anything obtained by us or from third parties for the purposes of a benchmarking study typically belongs to us, as do any recommendations.

 

[High Speed Steel]

The Presidents Council took the time for negotiating training. Is this suppose to make us feel like they really have a say in contract negotiations? For anyone to think it does, is misinformed! [The TWU International encouraged the concessions of 2003 and now they act like they don't know what we need. The Presidents Council does not need training, they need the TWU International to demand our contract back and lead the membership into battle. But that won't happen, The TWU will hide behind the Presidents Council and blame everything on the Negotiating Committee and the members because they were trained. Even though the Negotiating Committee or the members do not own the contract. Meaning that Jim Little and Gary Yingst have to sign off on the contract not the Negotiating Committee. That is why the negotiating Committee are labeled as only witnesses to the contract( look in your contract book).
The TWU is so entrenched with the company that it is difficult to tell which represents us. This whole project of opening the contract early is a farse. The contract in my opinion has been already discussed and the needs are set awaiting for the games to begin in November. We are mere pawns in this game and the earlier you realize it, the better off you will be to accept your predetermined fate. If the TWU International is just a shadow of the company, then why do we need the TWU International in the Air Transport Division? Anyone can do what the company requests. Remember, the TWU ATD did not support any strikes, bankruptcy, or abrogation of contracts with any real teeth. Talk is just talk! Some were non AFL/CIO and some were AFL/CIO members! To me what is the difference if it will affect us down the road? What is the ATD Purpose if they didn't try to protect our industry!
Negotiations is not what it seems!

This is the very first post that opened this thread. It has generated over 4000 responses and is from Chuck the co-star of the "Video Bob and Chuck VOTE NO show"...Ol' Chuck with his post here sounds like a true upstanding TWU guy to me

And you fools bought it....lol :huh:

 

[TWU informer]

This is the very first post that opened this thread. It has generated over 4000 responses and is from Chuck the co-star of the "Video Bob and Chuck VOTE NO show"...Ol' Chuck with his post here sounds like a true upstanding TWU guy to me

And you fools bought it....lol :huh:

Sounds like he is telling the truth to me.

What part of that original post do you disagree with?

The fact is after enough time for 4000 responses and over 4 years later, the TWU has still not brought back a membership acceptable agreement.
Do you blame Chuck and Bob for that? Or has the TWU failed us?
Surely you don't think Chuck and Bob has control over the voting of the masses?
Fact is the T/A was unnaceptable to 2/3rds of the voting membership.

In addition to not having an acceptable T/A, several scope 29D greivances have been lost proving that we have extremely weak and worthless scope language.
When NWA was outsourcing work and moving union members to other stations like AA is now doing, you and others were quick to blame AMFA.
When the same damn thing is happening right under your nose, instead of blaming the TWU, you are busy attacking Chuck and Bob, and run around getting petitions signed. Very impressive show of intelligence. Or is that just plain old blind support?

How is that petition and blaming working to preserve our future? Seems to me the 230 jobs are gone, and also seems you and the arbitration committee has failed us much worse than the NO VOTE has. 757's Outsourced to TIMCO, 230 jobs moved to Dallas, 15 CFM-56 Engines Outsourced to Struthers, Landing Gear Outsourced, Boiler Room work Outsourced. And even worse the results are always covered up and kept away from the membership communications, like a giant cat that took a crap in a litter box and covering up the turds. Is that how you define an upstanding TWU guy? One that ignores the facts, and never tells the truth?

Now we would have get scope language re-written in addition to restoring pay and benefits.

You and I agreed on the voting of the T/A, but that doesn't make me ignorant to what is going on around us beyond the T/A,

Maybe we should return to the old staple of t-shirts and hats with slogans. Maybe a Giant Snake with chants of "Will Strike if Provoked" out in front of the base would make a difference.
ROFLMAO

 

[Buck]

Sounds like he is telling the truth to me.

What part of that original post do you disagree with?

The fact is after enough time for 4000 responses and over 4 years later, the TWU has still not brought back a membership acceptable agreement.
Do you blame Chuck and Bob for that? Or has the TWU failed us?
Surely you don't think Chuck and Bob has control over the voting of the masses?
Fact is the T/A was unnaceptable to 2/3rds of the voting membership.

In addition to not having an acceptable T/A, several scope 29D greivances have been lost proving that we have extremely weak and worthless scope language.
When NWA was outsourcing work and moving union members to other stations like AA is now doing, you and others were quick to blame AMFA.
When the same damn thing is happening right under your nose, instead of blaming the TWU, you are busy attacking Chuck and Bob, and run around getting petitions signed. Very impressive show of intelligence. Or is that just plain old blind support?

How is that petition and blaming working to preserve our future? Seems to me the 230 jobs are gone, and also seems you and the arbitration committee has failed us much worse than the NO VOTE has. 757's Outsourced to TIMCO, 230 jobs moved to Dallas, 15 CFM-56 Engines Outsourced to Struthers, Landing Gear Outsourced, Boiler Room work Outsourced. And even worse the results are always covered up and kept away from the membership communications, like a giant cat that took a crap in a litter box and covering up the turds. Is that how you define an upstanding TWU guy? One that ignores the facts, and never tells the truth?

Now we would have get scope language re-written in addition to restoring pay and benefits.

You and I agreed on the voting of the T/A, but that doesn't make me ignorant to what is going on around us beyond the T/A,

Maybe we should return to the old staple of t-shirts and hats with slogans. Maybe a Giant Snake with chants of "Will Strike if Provoked" out in front of the base would make a difference.
ROFLMAO

And there for a minute I thought that the 500 jobs the company added in Tulsa would be a close to equal exchange for the 230 going to Dallas. I did not realize that the TWU had let som many jobs go. Funny what you do not hear.....

 

[wrencher]

And there for a minute I thought that the 500 jobs the company added in Tulsa would be a close to equal exchange for the 230 going to Dallas. I did not realize that the TWU had let som many jobs go. Funny what you do not hear.....

Talk to the twu represented employees and their families about the sensless move of the work to Dallas then the outsourceing of the jobs they could have done at Kansas City or somewhere else. We insatantly loss 45 percent just to commute oh you say move down here, under these circumstances don't think so just waiting for the next round of givebacks and layoffs I'm sure we will be taken care of then by the beloved Totally Worthless Union.

 

[Buck]

Talk to the twu represented employees and their families about the senseless move of the work to Dallas then the outsourcing of the jobs they could have done at Kansas City or somewhere else. We instantly loss 45 percent just to commute oh you say move down here, under these circumstances don't think so just waiting for the next round of givebacks and layoffs I'm sure we will be taken care of then by the beloved Totally Worthless Union.

Not to worry brother, These represented employees have the option of moving back to the toolbox. If it is not written it does not matter.

One thing I do not understand about your statement, is that you seem to be saying that those 230 jobs could have been accomplished in Kansas City? If that is what you are suggesting, what is the difference between Dallas and Kansas City?

 

[wrencher]

Not to worry brother, These represented emlyees have the option of moving back to the toolbox. If it is not written it does not matter.

One thing I do not undrstand about your statement, is that you seem to be saying that those 230 jobs could have been accomplished in Kansas City? If that is what you are suggesting, what is the difference between Dallas and Kansas City?

They take 230 jobs out of Kansas City add them to DWH then outsource the work because they don't have room what the hell do you think I'm saying You think families like moveing around the globe?.

 

[Overspeed]

Sounds like he is telling the truth to me.

What part of that original post do you disagree with?

The fact is after enough time for 4000 responses and over 4 years later, the TWU has still not brought back a membership acceptable agreement.
Do you blame Chuck and Bob for that? Or has the TWU failed us?
Surely you don't think Chuck and Bob has control over the voting of the masses?
Fact is the T/A was unnaceptable to 2/3rds of the voting membership.

In addition to not having an acceptable T/A, several scope 29D greivances have been lost proving that we have extremely weak and worthless scope language.
When NWA was outsourcing work and moving union members to other stations like AA is now doing, you and others were quick to blame AMFA.
When the same damn thing is happening right under your nose, instead of blaming the TWU, you are busy attacking Chuck and Bob, and run around getting petitions signed. Very impressive show of intelligence. Or is that just plain old blind support?

How is that petition and blaming working to preserve our future? Seems to me the 230 jobs are gone, and also seems you and the arbitration committee has failed us much worse than the NO VOTE has. 757's Outsourced to TIMCO, 230 jobs moved to Dallas, 15 CFM-56 Engines Outsourced to Struthers, Landing Gear Outsourced, Boiler Room work Outsourced. And even worse the results are always covered up and kept away from the membership communications, like a giant cat that took a crap in a litter box and covering up the turds. Is that how you define an upstanding TWU guy? One that ignores the facts, and never tells the truth?

Now we would have get scope language re-written in addition to restoring pay and benefits.

You and I agreed on the voting of the T/A, but that doesn't make me ignorant to what is going on around us beyond the T/A,

Maybe we should return to the old staple of t-shirts and hats with slogans. Maybe a Giant Snake with chants of "Will Strike if Provoked" out in front of the base would make a difference.
ROFLMAO

Bob and Chuck tell the truth? Really? I guess it is based on a person's perspective

If the TWU scope language was so bad why has AA not outsourced like mad? NWA started the outsourcing under the IAM and then completed the deal when AMFA decided that it was in their members best interests to strike a near BK airline. Well I guess the AMTs won if you say they got full pay to the last day. It is doubtful, of highly unlikely that all or most of the former NWA AMTs got new jobs at $34 plus an hour. But you could use the standard cop out that they would have gone BK anyway.

People like Bob, Pike, Chuck, Ken, JR, Peterson, and Schiable is that they made a error and judgment in over promising and now not being able to deliver. So now the only thing they can do is blame the Int'l and the company for their failures. They attempt to come out clean by saying the politically correct "union" answer that they are fighters and the company was going to claim BK anyway. If the company doesn't and the union settles then they again blame the Int'l as being soft and the company scamming the members again.

Wake up to the fact that these people have an audience and power only if the members don't pin them down and expose their BS. If not, then maybe we deserve whatever we get, good or bad.

 

[Bob Owens]

Unlike you, I didn't pull a number out of my ass. Consulting is a very small community at times, and you know how AMR loves to bring in consultants...

Let's see, personal attack to divert attention away from the non-answer. Why not just admit that while you didn't just pull the numbers out of your ass thats exactly where you got the rest of the content of that post? Why not just admit hat you don't know and were making assumptions?

I've worked over 30 years in this industry, not just the airlines and not just as a mechanic, Not only did I work for a vendor(AAR)' I also worked the stock room and would receive parts from vendors. You made the claim that should a vendor run over on the days that AA would not be charged, I questioned that based on my experience over the years working in one of those shops and as a stock clerk receiving parts, along with the invoices, from several vendors. If a load of corrosion is found and that results in a the aircraft sitting and being worked in a shop I doubt that the vendor isn't going to charge for that, if what you claim is true then the vendor more than likely built hat into he price already.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob and Chuck tell the truth? Really? I guess it is based on a person's perspective

If the TWU scope language was so bad why has AA not outsourced like mad? NWA started the outsourcing under the IAM and then completed the deal when AMFA decided that it was in their members best interests to strike a near BK airline. Well I guess the AMTs won if you say they got full pay to the last day. It is doubtful, of highly unlikely that all or most of the former NWA AMTs got new jobs at $34 plus an hour. But you could use the standard cop out that they would have gone BK anyway.

People like Bob, Pike, Chuck, Ken, JR, Peterson, and Schiable is that they made a error and judgment in over promising and now not being able to deliver. So now the only thing they can do is blame the Int'l and the company for their failures. They attempt to come out clean by saying the politically correct "union" answer that they are fighters and the company was going to claim BK anyway. If the company doesn't and the union settles then they again blame the Int'l as being soft and the company scamming the members again.

Wake up to the fact that these people have an audience and power only if the members don't pin them down and expose their BS. If not, then maybe we deserve whatever we get, good or bad.

Please quote the language that stops them from outsourcing "like mad". I don't know of any substantial improvements to scope from 2001 and back then we outsourced more than most of the majors. Most of them had to go BK to compete with AA and their OSMs, long progressions, pre- funding, employee contributions to Medical and loss of the first year towards the pension. Industry leading concessions that AA enjoyed for many years that competitors did not enjoy.

Please show us where any of us made any promises? I think we all realize that as Presidents none of us has the ability to deliver anything as far as a contract, that argument has been settled in several court cases. The fact is the International owns the contract, all we can do is keep the membership informed so they don't accept a bad deal, again.

The fact is this union is soft on the company. Look at what's going on with the pilots. They will likely have. Deal soon, why? Because the company beds some changes to deal with the shortage of pilots and language to fly new aircraft. The APA said no side deals, settle the contract. A year ago AA was in a bind, they did away with the Junior Mechanic program in 2001, so when they needed mechanics on the line and contractually they had to offer the vaccines from within they were faced with the fact that the guy who was entitled did not have the experience required, so everything came to a grinding halt. Instead of telling the company too bad, let's settle it at the table the TWU settled the 29D by allowing the company to do change the QAM and lower the experience requirement to zero. Same thing with Anti- trust immunity. Whatever this company wants from the TWU the International makes sure they gets.

Now comes the BK scare tactics, no doubt the International will barrage the Presidents Council this week with doom and gloom about BK, the fact is that we have no control over that anyway and the $ 190 million a year we were asking for isn't enough to make a trip to BK worth it. The unions basically fell flat, all of them, during the 2002-05 BK frenzy. The AFA did challenge it, but never followed through by bringing the case to the Supreme Court. Maybe, if they do file, (which I don't think they will) we will be the ones to do it, then again if they do file the pilots will be the ones with the most to lose so we could ride on their coat tails, but no real union would tolerate allowing a Judge to order their members to work under terms they did not negotiate and were set with only the companies interests in mind.