TWU negotiations.........what?

[Overspeed]

Very good Bob. But there is one thing that caught my attention since I hired in 1984. The B-Scale. I was initiated in the 1983 cintract and why were union members so set on cutting the throat of the unhired? Was this one of Ed Wilson's gains?

After several years of reeling from the twin setbacks to labor unions - Reagan initiated the union busting with PATCO strike as well as deregulation under Carter - Crandall proposed his growth plan. Convinced the investors to given up dividends to invest in the airline and then leaned on the unions to accept lower labor cost deals. He wanted a new lower wage scale and to help fund the growth plan. With the assault on labor at Texas Air/CAL and Reagan showing the way with PATCO firings, Crandall had negotiated deals to replace the mechanics at AA with contract labor. Stations throughout line maintenance had rollaways with tools in the hangars locked up for the scab mechanics.

The TWU had two options, take on the company and strike or send the deal out for a vote and let the members decide. The members took the deal and AA did grow. In fact by the early 1990s AA had become the largest airline and the B scale was gone.

Of course we could have taken Crandall on and maybe we could have led the way and started the outsourcing ball rolling before AMFA at NWA. But fortunately that did not happen and EAL, NWA, UAL, US, CAL, DL, and SW all get to lay claim the title of industry leaders in outsourcing hard working union members jobs and the TWU gets labelled as rollovers.

I give you 25,000 plus reasons of how Bob's take 'em on or take 'em down strategy works. They are the unemployed or low paid mechanics that paid the price of impulsive and misguided leadership.

 

[TWU informer]

Me run? Never!!!

Here you go. Was not the TWU that brought on B Scale first.

The B-Scale Plague
American Airlines adopted the benchmark B-scale in 1983, permanently reducing pay for newly hired pilots by 50 percent. In fact, under the AA system—negotiated while the Seham firm sat on the labor side of the table—pay rates and pensions for new employees would never merge with those of then-current employees.

Martin Seham wrote proudly of this accomplishment in Cleared for Takeoff: Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation.

As general counsel to the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent certified representative of the American Airlines pilots, I was close to the negotiations that resulted, in 1983, in the earliest realization of the two-tier system. APA was not faced with an insolvent or failing carrier; it was, however, forced to deal with an economic environment that had changed dramatically because of the effects of deregulation and was, by virtue of its independence, mandated to reach an agreement consistent with the needs and objectives of its constituency. — Martin C. Seham


Although B-scales were not a new concept, their initial format was unique to the airline industry. Following American’s lead, other airlines began to demand similar packages—forcing the entire airline labor movement into a new era of concessions. Good for management; bad for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, and all of the airline industry’s workers.

Thanks for proving you lie. Again I hired in under a 1983 B-Scale with a 12 1/2 year progression to top pay, TWU contract. So this doesn't prove anything other than the Pilot's had the 1983 b-scale also. Again the begin date of that TWU B-Scale 12 year progressions contract was Feb. 11, 1983 can you show a contract with an earlier date on it?

Are you still going to claim the TWU wasn't the first AMT represenstation to bring it to the industry? You are basically making my point that you lie or twist the facts all the while you claim Bob Owens twisted facts and lied, but it appears you are the guilty party of twist and lie.

You also claimed it was AMFA Lawyer Lee Seham that brought the B-Scale to the Pilots.

Your own information even states it was Martin Seham not Lee Seham. Another twisted fact.

Now let's see you prove any of the rest of your bogus claims. Your claim was that CAL had the first 12 year progression after they busted the Union.
I still don't see any proof of that claim here.

 

[TWU informer]

After several years of reeling from the twin setbacks to labor unions - Reagan initiated the union busting with PATCO strike as well as deregulation under Carter - Crandall proposed his growth plan. Convinced the investors to given up dividends to invest in the airline and then leaned on the unions to accept lower labor cost deals. He wanted a new lower wage scale and to help fund the growth plan. With the assault on labor at Texas Air/CAL and Reagan showing the way with PATCO firings, Crandall had negotiated deals to replace the mechanics at AA with contract labor. Stations throughout line maintenance had rollaways with tools in the hangars locked up for the scab mechanics.

The TWU had two options, take on the company and strike or send the deal out for a vote and let the members decide. The members took the deal and AA did grow. In fact by the early 1990s AA had become the largest airline and the B scale was gone.

Of course we could have taken Crandall on and maybe we could have led the way and started the outsourcing ball rolling before AMFA at NWA. But fortunately that did not happen and EAL, NWA, UAL, US, CAL, DL, and SW all get to lay claim the title of industry leaders in outsourcing hard working union members jobs and the TWU gets labelled as rollovers.

I give you 25,000 plus reasons of how Bob's take 'em on or take 'em down strategy works. They are the unemployed or low paid mechanics that paid the price of impulsive and misguided leadership.

So you admit that you are one of those that believes more dues payers at less is pay is better than less dues payers at more pay?
That is exactly the TWU philosophy that is eroding the profession.
Yet they (you) lead us to believe that via Political Involvement we should be able to harness outsourcing or at least make the playing feild level.
TWU has failed miserable both in keeping the standard of living higher, and their political farce takes the cake in Ponzi Schemes that have failed to deliver.

 

[aapitbull]

Me run? Never!!!

Here you go. Was not the TWU that brought on B Scale first.

The B-Scale Plague
American Airlines adopted the benchmark B-scale in 1983, permanently reducing pay for newly hired pilots by 50 percent. In fact, under the AA system—negotiated while the Seham firm sat on the labor side of the table—pay rates and pensions for new employees would never merge with those of then-current employees.

Martin Seham wrote proudly of this accomplishment in Cleared for Takeoff: Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation.

As general counsel to the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent certified representative of the American Airlines pilots, I was close to the negotiations that resulted, in 1983, in the earliest realization of the two-tier system. APA was not faced with an insolvent or failing carrier; it was, however, forced to deal with an economic environment that had changed dramatically because of the effects of deregulation and was, by virtue of its independence, mandated to reach an agreement consistent with the needs and objectives of its constituency. — Martin C. Seham


Although B-scales were not a new concept, their initial format was unique to the airline industry. Following American’s lead, other airlines began to demand similar packages—forcing the entire airline labor movement into a new era of concessions. Good for management; bad for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, and all of the airline industry’s workers.

While ALPA pilots were forced to deal with this blight brought to the industry by APA and the Sehams, not one ALPA pilot group accepted a non-merging two-tier scale. The clearest example of this was the ALPA strike at United in June 1985, when the pilots refused to agree to a non-merging two-tier pay scale.

Ironically, it was ALPA’s success in preventing implementation of the Seham B-scale at UAL that led to the Rakestraw case, where replacement pilots who crossed the picket line attempted to reverse ALPA’s successful efforts to negotiate seniority protection for hundreds of pro-ALPA new-hires who had refused management’s demand to become strikebreakers. DPA’s law firm now misinterprets and misrepresents this case—in which ALPA protected pilots who adhered to union principle and honored picket lines—as somehow giving it carte blanche to change seniority as it sees fit. To read more, click here.

In fact, following ALPA’s win at United, ALPA pilot groups, through their strength at the bargaining table, led the effort to eliminate the B-scale structure. They did it by working together, forging a pattern and sticking to it—the same way ALPA pilots throughout our industry are working to rebuild our contracts after the era of bankruptcy and ATSB constraints.

But Chuck Novak, United's manager of corporate communications, said the company needs more than the union has been willing to give thus far. He said United must lower pilots' wages and its other labor costs significantly if it is to compete with American Airlines, which won a permanent two-tier contract with its pilots in November, 1983. Americans' pilots are represented by a separate union, the Allied Pilots Assn. United also faces competition from Continental Airlines, which declared bankruptcy and abrogated its labor agreements 21 months ago, and new non-union carriers such as People Express.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-05-22/news/mn-17013_1_united-airlines

The rest of the article can be found at the above link. it would seem that the TWU and a host of other carriers had b scales first.

 

[Bob Owens]

B-scale was brought to you by Lee Seham (AMFA craft union lawyer) at the APA (fired) at AA first. They broke the barrier, not the TWU.

LTD - don't know but where are your facts?

PL - That was CAL after they broke the IAM

12 year pay scale - CAL after they broke the union

9 year - don't know.

AA had apprentice mechanics for a long time. CAL and DL had mechanic helpers which aren't even AMTs long before AA

Retiree medical - CAL after they broke the union

Pension one year no credit - don't know. Our pension plan pays out more considering almost all either had theirs frozen or terminated.

Holidays - we own that one. I guess its better than having a 365 day holiday with no pay though.

SRPs - CAL had them before us with the helper program. The others just outsourced the work driving the TWU to make a decision to let it be outsourced or insourced through the SRP system. Those people can upgrade to AMT with Title I seniority. Not so when outsourced.

IOD pay - don't know.

SK time - CAL after they broke the union

Bob, you twist and distort again or i.e. you continue to lie. We own some of it, but not all of it and in the greater context, we have over 11,500 people working where others have half that after the benevolent BK judge "helped" them out. No pension, no job, no benefits, etc... great deal. NOT!

I was talking about us, the mechanics. Julius Cesar was the originator of B- scale if you want to play semantics.
On the other examples you only cite non-union carriers. So are you saying that we should follow the path of non-union carriers?
Yes AA had junior mechanics for a long time but the progression was not four years.

 

[Duke787]

An amusing show, but when the show gets to the interview portion the author is Ellen Schultz who wrote the Retirement Heist, she talks a little on what corparations do with the retirement funds.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/290060/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-mon-oct-17-2011

 

[Bob Owens]

The TWU had two options, take on the company and strike or send the deal out for a vote and let the members decide. The members took the deal and AA did grow. In fact by the early 1990s AA had become the largest airline and the B scale was gone.

Of course we could have taken Crandall on and maybe we could have led the way and started the outsourcing ball rolling before AMFA at NWA. But fortunately that did not happen and EAL, NWA, UAL, US, CAL, DL, and SW all get to lay claim the title of industry leaders in outsourcing hard working union members jobs and the TWU gets labelled as rollovers.

I give you 25,000 plus reasons of how Bob's take 'em on or take 'em down strategy works. They are the unemployed or low paid mechanics that paid the price of impulsive and misguided leadership.

In reality A- scale was gone, not B scale. Raises failed to keep up with inflation, by the end of the 90s, despite the soaring economy and posted profits in the billions mechanics real wages had fallen to record lows thanks to the Six year six percent industry leading concessionary contract that we were told to accept in 1995. "Don't worry fellas, we got a Me Too clause".

WN always outsourced, in the beginning they did not have the economies of scale to justify insourcing. The other carriers could not compete with AA which had low cost SRPs in place since 1995 , plus a host of other concessions, so they used BK and just sent the stuff out. You come here and spout that we saved jobs by rolling over and giving the company what they want, the fact is we all once had jobs that could support a family, we all lost that job, even though we still report to the same place.

Does your 25000 figure include the 5000+ mechanic jobs that disappeared at AA?

 

[Bob Owens]

An amusing show, but when the show gets to the interview portion the author is Ellen Schultz who wrote the Retirement Heist, she talks a little on what corparations do with the retirement funds.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/290060/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-mon-oct-17-2011

Great book, I haven't finished it yet but it sure makes you want to go join the OWS demonstrations!

 

[Overspeed]

In reality A- scale was gone, not B scale. Raises failed to keep up with inflation, by the end of the 90s, despite the soaring economy and posted profits in the billions mechanics real wages had fallen to record lows thanks to the Six year six percent industry leading concessionary contract that we were told to accept in 1995. "Don't worry fellas, we got a Me Too clause".

WN always outsourced, in the beginning they did not have the economies of scale to justify insourcing. The other carriers could not compete with AA which had low cost SRPs in place since 1995 , plus a host of other concessions, so they used BK and just sent the stuff out. You come here and spout that we saved jobs by rolling over and giving the company what they want, the fact is we all once had jobs that could support a family, we all lost that job, even though we still report to the same place.

Does your 25000 figure include the 5000+ mechanic jobs that disappeared at AA?

No, everyone station I have contacted on the line has said the exhausted their recall list. And as far as AA shrinking, are you saying that there should be the same amount of mechanics as in 2001? Simple math would show that doesn't make sense.

AA had about 16,000 mechanics in 2001 pre-9/11 and 850 planes including ex-TWA. Now we have 11,000 and 600 mechanics. Are you saying we should have the same number of mechanics regardless of aircraft to work on? Prior to the elimination of the B scale AA had fewer than 8500 mechanics to work just under 600 aircraft and one base. We got those old 727s and DC10s flying better with junior mechanics and B scale mechanics (that's when we were the On Time Machine) than we do now with three bases, almost 25% more people, no B scale, no junior mechanics, and I believe we were near the bottom in pay.

The difference? Our union leaders used to weed out the slackers. The union is not policing their own.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

The difference? Our union leaders used to weed out the slackers. The union is not policing their own.

What was your first clue, numbnuts? ... and you're Pro-twu?

Your pet union wants the company to hire more people, further diluting the money available to pay maintenance personnel on a per-capita basis and inflating their dues take yet you're pro-twu?

Those in Centrepork are convinced they can get the assistance of the twu in spreading their doom and gloom BS (per Apery's master's thesis) and avoid a bankruptcy filing, keeping the management's pockets full and garnering the "respect" of other airliine mismanagement. Arpey has no aversion to filing for Chapter 11 - he's the new brand of mab/cpa - anything that makes his company look good is what he's about - he simply wants to scare the employees into giving what would otherwise have to be attained through a filing.

It is evident the twu is a group of 'useful idiots' (look up the term if you aren't familiar) that will be dropped in the crapper at the first opportunity along with those they supposedly represent.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Great book, I haven't finished it yet but it sure makes you want to go join the OWS demonstrations!

Yep - let's all go join a 60s-style "pig-in" - are you itching to crap on a cop car, Bob?

The "students" that took part in the 60s demonstrations are now the CEOs of many companys. I personally would prefer to set off a tactical nuke in the NY park eliminating many of the next generation of MBAs that will be worse than what we have now - that would also have the effect of sterilizing the area.

This entire thing is being bankrolled, it seems by George Soros, a self-admitted Kapo (the definition is in the Wiki) who would love nothing better than to see the United States fall to Communism/Socialism as did your hero Mike Quill, a member of the Communist Party (until he realized it wasn't in his best interests to continue).

There are many example and stories, some Biblical, re: why present business practices are wrong but these laughable occupations aren't the answer to fixing the problems.

We have two main problems - a so-called "union" seeking to enrich itself at the expense of its membership while putting on canine and equestrian events for the "benefit" of said membership and a corporation infested with frat-brats that couldn't manage a low grade cluster#### in a whorehouse.

 

[Buck]

Ok I will defend the Republican. If PATCO had received the promised support, the issue may have change. Reagan played his hand and PATCO blinked. There may have been jobs lost, however considering all of the information in the previous posts, it would apppear that it wasn't PATCO that took the major beating, but it was the TWU by accepting a lower classification called the B-Scale and later the C-Scale all the way to SRP's and OSM's.

So with the demise of the A-Scale, the TWU literally devastated the union workforce and now their defenders want to blame Reagan and the PATCO strike for the mess the TWU has themselves in today.

The difference? Our union leaders used to weed out the slackers. The union is not policing their own.

Since 1984 the TWU has not weeded out anyone!

 

[FWAAA]

AA had about 16,000 mechanics in 2001 pre-9/11 and 850 planes including ex-TWA. Now we have 11,000 and 600 mechanics.

It was even more than 850. Immediately prior to September 11, AA had 717 nAAtive mainline aircraft plus 185 TWA LLC mainline planes for a total of 902. At year-end 2001, AA still had 881 mainline planes (the DC-9s were parked for good). With a fleet that's now just 2/3 the size it used to be, one would naturally expect AA to need just 2/3 as many mechanics and only 2/3 as many maintenance bases (making MCIE redundant).

 

[Buck]

The difference between the OWS'ers and the Tea Party is if asked to leave the park for any reason the OWS'ers would say FU were staying and the Tea Party would say ok and come back the next day.

 

[787nightmare]

So you worked at a company during the period they gutted EAL and broke the IAM? That's awesome!

Look slick... The IAM was LONG GONE. It was Lorenzos TX Air Grp that was gobbling up carriers assets and dumping the rest in a land fill. I will never cross a line and have proven my mettle. Unlike the bulk of Twu m&r.
I was trying to get out of CAL as soon as I could. As if you twu boys are strong, staunch union men. I would absolutely LOVE to strike AA. Just so I could actually see who would hold the line.
I know a Tech CC that saw a scab from his tenure with Boeing, he asked the twu rep at hire w/ AA, "you know that guys a scab-from where I used to Wk, Boeing"?

Twu replied, " everybody deserves a second chance brother".
Why doesn't that surprise me........so you can hump somebody else's leg there slick.
C'mon! Let go out! I'm ready!!!...........
That's what I thought.