TWU negotiations.........what?

[odie01]

Stealing food from your children's mouth? Overreach there!

Be prepared that when they can't deliver Bob, JR, and Pike will blame the Int'l, the Company, the mediator, and all the presidents that finally woke up when a new TA comes out without full retro. You at that point can heed their advice to vote down the TA and wait for release like the APFA and APA who asked over a year ago to walk out. It gets chilly when the NMB puts you on ice so better dress warm. A few years from now you will still post about how the TWU screwed you when it was really all the people who actually believed Bob, Ken, and JR's BS.

Richard,
What's in the August TA, sound like your negotiating behind our back? Until we know the provisions of the lending agreement for our multi billion dollar L.O.C., I think we can wait it out a little bit longer without choking on another consessionary contract.

 

[TWU informer]

I agree. I would have much more preferred letting AA run the company the Crandall way and layoff and shrink until you start making money again. Carty didn't want to go down shrinking AA after it was the biggest airline when he was given the keys to CEO bathroom. Unfortunately his bad timing and choices brought this company to its knees. The higher ups knew the industry was starting to head for a fall prior to 9/11. Any exec that blames 9/11 for the current state of the industry is lying. The freewheeling excesses of pre-9/11 left AA vulnerable so the higher ups paid for it off our backs. Kind of like the banking scam of 2008, the little guy takes the hit.

This is TOTAL BS. Carty allowed the "UNIONS" to decide which avenue to obtain savings and avoid Bankruptcy.
It was the TWU that decided to decimate 50 years of negotiated benefits to "save the jobs".

You are on here claiming or predicting that everyone else will blame someone else for their failures, yet you are a bonavide expert in blame.
It was the "UNIONS" that decided the direction not Carty.

You can blame Carty for not having the balls to lead like Crandall had, but you will not get away with telling lies about who decided not to shrink.
It was the DUES COLLECTORS that refused the "shrink" option.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Don/Bob/Kevin,

"Could have had an extra $25K to $30K in your pocket already. You voted no based on their recommendation that they are going to get you full retro plus SWA wages. How are they doing on that promise?"


30 pieces of silver for more concessions? Typical twu mantra. The twu peddled another concessionary contract and they lost face. EVERYTIME you post here defending the twu from behind your alias TRYING to spin what I and Bob and others point out makes you look more and more like an uncleansed bovine's arse.

 

[Overspeed]

This is TOTAL BS. Carty allowed the "UNIONS" to decide which avenue to obtain savings and avoid Bankruptcy.
It was the TWU that decided to decimate 50 years of negotiated benefits to "save the jobs".

You are on here claiming or predicting that everyone else will blame someone else for their failures, yet you are a bonavide expert in blame.
It was the "UNIONS" that decided the direction not Carty.

You can blame Carty for not having the balls to lead like Crandall had, but you will not get away with telling lies about who decided not to shrink.
It was the DUES COLLECTORS that refused the "shrink" option.

Carty allowed? Uh, wasn't he the one who got booted by the BOD for screwing up the talks on concessions with the SERP?

The TWU, which includes you, agreed to the concessions yes. Who owns the misguided purchase of TWA? The TWU? No you do not get to vote on that. Not blaming stating what happened and I don't have my copy of the BOD minutes on me right now.

For one Carty did have the ability to shrink the airline HC but he added it right back. If you remember he laid off a ton of labor and very little management. Again Carty not the TWU. Crandall was even on TV stating they (management) are doing it all wrong. The system protection was suspended under the force majuere provision so he coud have cut deep in all departments and added HC back in gradually without cutting your pay and giving us the "option" just weeks before BK. The TWU did discuss with Greg Hall about not laying off as many AMTs in exhange for working reduced/eliminated OT prior to concessions in order to prevent a loss of jobs and at that time we were still at the 2001 rates. The idea was that recovery would happen soon and to avoid putting people on the street. In retrospect it was a bad choice but who knew oil would hit over $100/bbl, volcanoes, SARS, bank failures, near financial collapse, global recession and the like. If you could have you would probably be running your own hedge fund.

And for your information, it wasn't the Int'l who refused to shrink versus pay cuts, that was the local presidents. Ask people that were there like I did. No one wanted to go back and say that members would be laid off and productivity would have to increase in the short term so we could avoid paycuts. Not the Int'l, the presidents.

You know the ideology regarding direct elections has it's downsides too, local presidents get elected by their members directly and knowing that, they make decisions based on what will get them back in office. Holding and elected office is difficult in that you have to balance the direction of the organization versus how popular you will be so you can get re-elected. That means you make compromises and some we don't like.

 

[Overspeed]

Don/Bob/Kevin,

"Could have had an extra $25K to $30K in your pocket already. You voted no based on their recommendation that they are going to get you full retro plus SWA wages. How are they doing on that promise?"


30 pieces of silver for more concessions? Typical twu mantra. The twu peddled another concessionary contract and they lost face. EVERYTIME you post here defending the twu from behind your alias TRYING to spin what I and Bob and others point out makes you look more and more like an uncleansed bovine's arse.

No Ken.

Seriously, "uncleansed bovine's arse"? Is that the kind of wit we can expect from AMP? Nice! I am sure that will get us a great contract...uh, no. Again, stop being a child. Your kids would like to have a father that knows how to articulate his arguments in such a way as to convey intelligence and mastery of factual information as well as the common sense to reason effectively.

An incremental return of what was given up is better than nothing is what I am getting at. Ken, will you write all of us a check for full retro and the money we could have had if you and Bob can't deliver? That's what I thought.

Ken you remind of a story that goes like this; A dog, crossing a bridge over a stream with a piece of flesh in his mouth, saw his own shadow in the water and took it for that of another dog, with a piece of meat double his own in size. He immediately let go of his own, and fiercely attacked the other dog to get his larger piece from him. He thus lost both: that which he grasped at in the water, because it was a shadow; and his own, because the stream swept it away.

Ken you are like that dog. You are so desperate to have what others have you lose everything in the process. So Ken, scurry on home to your master Bob so he can give you a nice pat on the head and a treat.

 

[odie01]

An incremental return of what was given up is better than nothing is what I am getting at. Ken, will you write all of us a check for full retro and the money we could have had if you and Bob can't deliver? That's what I thought.

Judas had an incremental return when he sold out the man for 30 pieces of silver, look where it got him. We are on our 4th year of negotiations and AA just bought 460 shiney new airplanes with the corporate credit card, I'm pretty sure Boing and Airbus are not stupid enough to lend them that kind of coin unless contracts are settled in the near future. Maybe that's why Jim Little told Bob, Larry, Jr, and the rest of the boys that " we need to lower our standards for a TA" Maybe more and more mechanics are reading this forum to get information that their local leadership does not relay to them, about the negotiations or lack their of, from the company side. Maybe the international is intimidated by Bob's communication with not only his membership but with the whole system. Maybe you are international twu, and are trying to gain support for the ram-rodded TA we will see here shortly. Then again, maybe your just a dickweed!

 

[Overspeed]

Judas had an incremental return when he sold out the man for 30 pieces of silver, look where it got him. We are on our 4th year of negotiations and AA just bought 460 shiney new airplanes with the corporate credit card, I'm pretty sure Boing and Airbus are not stupid enough to lend them that kind of coin unless contracts are settled in the near future. Maybe that's why Jim Little told Bob, Larry, Jr, and the rest of the boys that " we need to lower our standards for a TA" Maybe more and more mechanics are reading this forum to get information that their local leadership does not relay to them, about the negotiations or lack their of, from the company side. Maybe the international is intimidated by Bob's communication with not only his membership but with the whole system. Maybe you are international twu, and are trying to gain support for the ram-rodded TA we will see here shortly. Then again, maybe your just a dickweed!

I used to just think you were misinformed.

Boeing and Airbus financed the deal, not the banks. The deal involves most of the aircraft acquisitions through leases and $13B in financing from the manufacturers.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/20/us-amr-idUSTRE76J07O20110720

So keep in mind, the leases can be renegotiated in a BK filing should AMRs financial condition go further south. Labor agreements, not secured by any means, can be gutted in a CH11 filing. Arpey keeps his planes, gets retention bonuses, the secured creditors keep getting paid, and labor gets a pension turned over to the PBGC, more pay cuts, outsourced maintenance, and much more expensive benefits.

Again Wall Street and the Investors win, labor loses in the BK scenario. Labor has much greater risk as the BK judge is required to take care of secured creditors first, not labor.

So let's take 'em down! You guys are so smart and everyone else is a liar. Intimidated by Bob??? More like wondering what kind of manipulation of the facts will he try next? Bob, he is a riot but you, now you are a AWESOME. You make me laugh!

What happened to calling me Mr. DW?

 

[Mr Red]

I used to just think you were misinformed.

Boeing and Airbus financed the deal, not the banks. The deal involves most of the aircraft acquisitions through leases and $13B in financing from the manufacturers.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/20/us-amr-idUSTRE76J07O20110720

So keep in mind, the leases can be renegotiated in a BK filing should AMRs financial condition go further south. Labor agreements, not secured by any means, can be gutted in a CH11 filing. Arpey keeps his planes, gets retention bonuses, the secured creditors keep getting paid, and labor gets a pension turned over to the PBGC, more pay cuts, outsourced maintenance, and much more expensive benefits.

Again Wall Street and the Investors win, labor loses in the BK scenario. Labor has much greater risk as the BK judge is required to take care of secured creditors first, not labor.

So let's take 'em down! You guys are so smart and everyone else is a liar. Intimidated by Bob??? More like wondering what kind of manipulation of the facts will he try next? Bob, he is a riot but you, now you are a AWESOME. You make me laugh!

What happened to calling me Mr. DW?

Read our lips !!!We don't care about the BK threat anymore,we've been working for a BK company for 8 yrs. Even the people that made this company work no matter what don't care anymore.PATHETIC !!

 

[Buck]

I agree. I would have much more preferred letting AA run the company the Crandall way and layoff and shrink until you start making money again. Carty didn't want to go down shrinking AA after it was the biggest airline when he was given the keys to CEO bathroom. Unfortunately his bad timing and choices brought this company to its knees. The higher ups knew the industry was starting to head for a fall prior to 9/11. Any exec that blames 9/11 for the current state of the industry is lying. The freewheeling excesses of pre-9/11 left AA vulnerable so the higher ups paid for it off our backs. Kind of like the banking scam of 2008, the little guy takes the hit.

Can you use a Thesaurus?

when he was given the keys to CEO bathroom.

Were you there? :huh:

Kind of like the banking scam of 2008, the little guy takes the hit.

Watch the "To Big to Fail"


The little guy, are you speaking of Jim Little?

So the banking scandal is similar to the TWU International. The little guy,(the member) taking a hit.

 

[TWU informer]

Carty allowed? Uh, wasn't he the one who got booted by the BOD for screwing up the talks on concessions with the SERP?

The TWU, which includes you, agreed to the concessions yes. Who owns the misguided purchase of TWA? The TWU? No you do not get to vote on that. Not blaming stating what happened and I don't have my copy of the BOD minutes on me right now.

For one Carty did have the ability to shrink the airline HC but he added it right back. If you remember he laid off a ton of labor and very little management. Again Carty not the TWU. Crandall was even on TV stating they (management) are doing it all wrong. The system protection was suspended under the force majuere provision so he coud have cut deep in all departments and added HC back in gradually without cutting your pay and giving us the "option" just weeks before BK. The TWU did discuss with Greg Hall about not laying off as many AMTs in exhange for working reduced/eliminated OT prior to concessions in order to prevent a loss of jobs and at that time we were still at the 2001 rates. The idea was that recovery would happen soon and to avoid putting people on the street. In retrospect it was a bad choice but who knew oil would hit over $100/bbl, volcanoes, SARS, bank failures, near financial collapse, global recession and the like. If you could have you would probably be running your own hedge fund.

And for your information, it wasn't the Int'l who refused to shrink versus pay cuts, that was the local presidents. Ask people that were there like I did. No one wanted to go back and say that members would be laid off and productivity would have to increase in the short term so we could avoid paycuts. Not the Int'l, the presidents.

You know the ideology regarding direct elections has it's downsides too, local presidents get elected by their members directly and knowing that, they make decisions based on what will get them back in office. Holding and elected office is difficult in that you have to balance the direction of the organization versus how popular you will be so you can get re-elected. That means you make compromises and some we don't like.

I am not sure what ROCK you crawled out from under, but I remember James C. Little claiming the ratification was flawed because of the SERP and the only way to have a legitimate labor agreement is a complete re-vote by "me" the member. Wthin a week he signed off on a P.O.S agreement "without further ratification" that is now clearly the largest union concession package ever known to man. He did this under assumption that he had obtained improvements which amounted to nothing more than a "early opener option" (never used) and some P.O.S. stock options (sold for pennies compared to today's loss in concessions).

Then he went further to testify in Federal Court about how membership ratification is not required under a "long standing interpetation of the TWU Constitution". And you claim I am the TWU. That is another issue I call BS on you.

I can provide documentation of this fact if you need it to refresh your flawed memory?
Have you been appointed yet by the TWU International, or are you just an aspiring candidate for appointment waiting in the ass end of James C. Little boxer's? You're true blue manipulator and liar, and therefore should fit right in.

And I bet you wear a Red Baseball Cap around with a Commie logo while you argue against membership direct elections.
TWU's false claim to a belief in membership democracy and opinion is embedded in the agency fee policy which requires membership resignation to object to TWU Political expenditures. It doesn't really get any more COMMIE than that in the United States of America. That's right overspeed, if I choose to disagree with TWU wasteful spending, then I MUST relinguish my membership rights. Tell us again how "I am the TWU".

 

[Buck]

This is TOTAL BS. Carty allowed the "UNIONS" to decide which avenue to obtain savings and avoid Bankruptcy.
It was the TWU that decided to decimate 50 years of negotiated benefits to "save the jobs".

You are on here claiming or predicting that everyone else will blame someone else for their failures, yet you are a bona fide expert in blame.
It was the "UNIONS" that decided the direction not Carty.

You can blame Carty for not having the balls to lead like Crandall had, but you will not get away with telling lies about who decided not to shrink.
It was the DUES COLLECTORS that refused the "shrink" option.

Did the employees get the Dell Computer deal as part of not going into bankruptcy? It was so long ago I cannot remember.

 

[Buck]

Carty allowed? Uh, wasn't he the one who got booted by the BOD for screwing up the talks on concessions with the SERP?

The TWU, which includes you, agreed to the concessions yes. Who owns the misguided purchase of TWA? The TWU? No you do not get to vote on that. Not blaming stating what happened and I don't have my copy of the BOD minutes on me right now.

For one Carty did have the ability to shrink the airline HC but he added it right back. If you remember he laid off a ton of labor and very little management. Again Carty not the TWU. Crandall was even on TV stating they (management) are doing it all wrong. The system protection was suspended under the force majuere provision so he coud have cut deep in all departments and added HC back in gradually without cutting your pay and giving us the "option" just weeks before BK. The TWU did discuss with Greg Hall about not laying off as many AMTs in exhange for working reduced/eliminated OT prior to concessions in order to prevent a loss of jobs and at that time we were still at the 2001 rates. The idea was that recovery would happen soon and to avoid putting people on the street. In retrospect it was a bad choice but who knew oil would hit over $100/bbl, volcanoes, SARS, bank failures, near financial collapse, global recession and the like. If you could have you would probably be running your own hedge fund.

And for your information, it wasn't the Int'l who refused to shrink versus pay cuts, that was the local presidents. Ask people that were there like I did. No one wanted to go back and say that members would be laid off and productivity would have to increase in the short term so we could avoid paycuts. Not the Int'l, the presidents.

You know the ideology regarding direct elections has it's downsides too, local presidents get elected by their members directly and knowing that, they make decisions based on what will get them back in office. Holding and elected office is difficult in that you have to balance the direction of the organization versus how popular you will be so you can get re-elected. That means you make compromises and some we don't like.

Who owns the misguided purchase of TWA? The TWU? No you do not get to vote on that.

Explain why we don't get to vote on something so important?

You know the ideology regarding direct elections has it's downsides too, local presidents get elected by their members directly and knowing that, they make decisions based on what will get them back in office. Holding and elected office is difficult in that you have to balance the direction of the organization versus how popular you will be so you can get re-elected. That means you make compromises and some we don't like.

Popularity VS the right thing to do?

And of course you are saying that the TWU International does not bring pressure upon the presidents.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Good ol' Carry, being a Dell board member, convinced the AA employees of what a good deal would be given them on the computers still in stock that hadn't been sold. We snapped 'em up, believing the 'good deal' crap. Only later did we find out we paid P4 prices for obsolete P3 machines. Looking back, it would seem to have been a practice run just to see what he and others could get AA's employees to believe.

 

[AANOTOK]

Surprise:

"After two more days of Federal mediation (July 25 & 26, 2011) the TWU Fleet and Ground Service Negotiations Committee is frustrated to report there has been no tentative agreement reached. The Company continues to demand what we believe to be a concessionary agreement.

There has been no future dates scheduled, and as always we will share information concerning future Mediation sessions, if any, as we receive them."

As always your Negotiations Committee appreciates your support.

 

[Overspeed]

And I bet you wear a Red Baseball Cap around with a Commie logo while you argue against membership direct elections.
TWU's false claim to a belief in membership democracy and opinion is embedded in the agency fee policy which requires membership resignation to object to TWU Political expenditures. It doesn't really get any more COMMIE than that in the United States of America. That's right overspeed, if I choose to disagree with TWU wasteful spending, then I MUST relinguish my membership rights. Tell us again how "I am the TWU".

You don't vote for the President or the Vice President of the US so does that make us all commies?