TWU negotiations.........what?

[strikeforce]

:huh: ----- Are you really that gullible???------ I can answer that in two words!:------ Money, and Greed!!!------ As for "professionalism," it is something you don't act out each day, it is something either you are!!! Or are not!!!

Gullible....not!

So, management at SWA, UPS & Fed Ex isn't greedy? After all, they have lots more money than we do.

You are right! professionalism is an inherant trait and value. You certainly can't teach someone to be professional, right?

Professionalism would certainly not be one of our expectations as Aircraft Mechanics, and belonging to the TWU? Should it be, whether we're getting raped or making $50 per hour?

Oh, I see.....since we're making 15-18 dollars less than our peers at SWA, that it gives the right to act like clowns, right?

 

[Overspeed]

I asked before.....why is SWA, UPS and Fed EX compelled to pay their mechanics $45-52 per hour. It's not out of the kindness of their hearts, that's for sure. These companies farm out OH, but they don't have to pay their mechanics these high wages....they can follow other carriers and pay what we make $33. So, why can AMFA and Teamsters convince their management to accept these high wages and good benefits, and WE CAN'T? There has to be a reason why?

FedEx and UPS are cargo outfits with much lower operating overhead. No frequent flyer programs, baggage handling, strict schedules to maintain, etc... They can afford to pay small select group of core skill workers to keep their operation running. SWA, allowing work to be outsourced to third world countries to offset the higher wage rates of a select, core group allows them to pay higher wages. None of the top performing airlines are willing to outsource the line AMT jobs...yet. Ever wonder why? Business lobbyists lean on legislators to continue to undermine regulations that require higher standards to maintain aircraft. The TWU report that was published a few months back details a lot of incidents where airlines like UAL, SWA, Jetblue, DL, CO, and US Air send their work overseas to outfits that do not do background checks, have lax security, no drug testing, and have people that do not speak the international language of aviation - English - work on aircraft and not translate the manuals. It is only a matter of time when AA will have to start outsourcing and maybe they will pay higher wages to those that remain as a result.

The reason the TWU can't get those higher wages? Maybe it's because the TWU negotiators are trying to get SWA wages without adopting SWA type work rules? A UPS AMT told me that under the new IBT agreement they can outsource even line work now on aircraft that spend a lot of their flying time outside the US. Would AA AMTs be willing to accept allowing line work to be outsourced in exchange for UPS wages? AMFA at SWA allowed work to be outsourced to El Salvador, would AA AMTs be willing to accept that work to be outsourced?

I know people champion JR & Bob's push to accept nothing less than UPS wages but his understanding of basic operating and finance principles is playing right in to Jim Weel's hands. It has been easy to blame AA for stalling but maybe they do that because they know our current negotiating stance and the mindset of the mediator allows them to play the current TWU negotiating dream team like a fiddle. AA gets a pay cut every year we don't have an agreement. Three years and counting, we need new people at the bargaining table, not rollovers but people that can truly understand the situation and not tell us stories that they know aren't true. These guy's negotiating now believe that their all or nothing ideas and if they lose, they say that they were willing to fight but blame us for being weak. Making promises you can't deliver on because you either underestimated your opponent or overestimated your own strength, that's weak.

 

[Hackman]

snip- "AMFA at SWA allowed work to be outsourced to El Salvador, would AA AMTs be willing to accept that work to be outsourced?"

Incorrect overspeed, it wasn't AMFA that allowed the "D" checks to be outsourced, it was the ibt. The checks were outsourced long before AMFA got in at SWA.

AMFA has brought more work in, they have a new line of "C" I believe when they signed the new contract.

 

[787nightmare]

Steve, I'm going out on a limb to say there's two problems here.....yes, our union disrespects all members by bamboozling us and working to undermine the our craft. That's our fault for keeping the cancer around. I'm just in amazement that it's very difficult to convince the majority of our craft to get rid of the TWU. Look, there isn't a craft union out there that would argue against the company's credited experience for entry mechanics besides a union strictly looking at dues, and not the quality of talent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but WE don't need anymore bags of SH*TS working around the joint, do we?

I know it's too easy to blame the TWU, but something morally changed within our ranks about how we view our craft and class. The pilots and f/a's also took a beating in 2003, but I don't see the pilots changing there views towards their craft. They still go about there business as professionals. I attribute that quality on the person's attitude towards the profession, more importantly, on how that person was raised.

I view our craft, for the most part, as highly skilled......no question, we have some very talented mechanics, whether it's structures, avionics, or systems....and don't get me wrong I blame the company for not utilizing the talent they have at the bases and line. And, although we took a beating in 2003, and now have gone 3 years of negotiating doesn't mean we just give up on the profession, and allow AA management & TWU members and officials to diminish the craft and class. Because that's exactly what's happened here.
I don't know what expectations AMFA and the Teamsters set for their members, but I'm sure they have expectations. I'm sure the bar is high, and they expect their members to act and work professional. What expectations does the TWU, or AA have our mechanics, besides showing up for work? That's the difference between TWU, AA, AMFA, Teamsters, and Fed Ex.

I asked before.....why is SWA, UPS and Fed EX compelled to pay their mechanics $45-52 per hour. It's not out of the kindness of their hearts, that's for sure. These companies farm out OH, but they don't have to pay their mechanics these high wages....they can follow other carriers and pay what we make $33. So, why can AMFA and Teamsters convince their management to accept these high wages and good benefits, and WE CAN'T? There has to be a reason why?

Strike, I've been in this industry since 1988, and following SWA since the early eighties; as I always thought Herb Kelleher was on to something with his biz model and had a great attitude towards his people. WN is a well oiled machine. They are the competitions absolute, most feared carrier in the industry. What was once the weakling on the block is now the bad ass, that has the physique of a Lou Ferrigno in his prime. And yes, once again...WN does has several heavy check lines going in Dallas. Equally true they outsource to El Salvador(which is strongly disagree with btw), ATS and SAT 3 MROs. But WN has a very streamlined, efficient operation that makes that company money. Big money. And last thing about WN...they operate lean on mechanics. There mechanics WORK too. If you're a slug, first of all, you'll not likely get past probation. But if do...you draw the wrath of your co-workers. They don't like it, and will ridicule & ride your ass to no end.

FedEx is an easy one. Fred Smith tosses the mechanics a little more money everytime the rumble gets loud enough to hear from corporate, & he gets the feeling a card drive is back on. FX is "reactive, rather than proactive" when it comes to giving it's mechanics a raise. They are also in the freight hauling business. Which, contrary to what some here believe, is very profitable-if done correctly. No heavy maint, all components outsourced. Just B checks, and line maint. Pretty simple. And they make more money in a quarter than AA makes all year. Easily... I know all this, because I worked there for almost 4 years. Additioanlly, I don't know an outfit that HATES unoins as much as Fred Smith and most people in FX. You'll never see a mechanics union in FX. Never...(IMO)

UPS is very similair. Except they lag FX in overnight express shipping capability/lift. BUT... dwarf Freds ground service. Which is where the real money is. Ground shipping. Which is why Fred went on shopping spree and bought up all the smaller truck lines he could get his hands on. In order to better combat UPS grd ops. But UP has been steadily increasing it's fleet size and is another money machine. No heavys, B cks, no comp maint-all outsource.

Now...I don't know about the rest of you. But I see a pattern here. All 3 of these carriers, be it freight, pax...are more profitable than AA(or any other carrier)-with FX, UP dwarfing AAs earnings. They can afford to hand the mechanics a decent raise. They've got the revenue to justify it, more importantly, the NET earnings to justify the raises.
To me...this is the nuts & bolts of the whole thing.

One other thing, barring a blatant/uncalled for, attack on someone, I really hate to see the bickering, arguing from one another. From the outside, it really does look bad. PM the issues/arguement if you want to banter back & forth. hu?...how 'bout it?
You guys desperately need to be pulling in the same direction. Just my 2 cents, fwiw...

 

[787nightmare]

snip- "AMFA at SWA allowed work to be outsourced to El Salvador, would AA AMTs be willing to accept that work to be outsourced?"

Incorrect overspeed, it wasn't AMFA that allowed the "D" checks to be outsourced, it was the ibt. The checks were outsourced long before AMFA got in at SWA.

AMFA has brought more work in, they have a new line of "C" I believe when they signed the new contract.

Correct, Hack...my inside source tells me word is, about 35 new hires for DAL C ck.

 

[Overspeed]

Whenever the company gets serious about productivity, we'll see a minimum of half the office infestation hit the street and I'm not referring to people in the offices that actually do something. I'm talking about the management buffoons whose sole function is to think up ways to screw with the troops.

Cut their numbers to the point what's left has to do their jobs (if they actually had a real one) and quit hiring more of them to cover up errors.

As far as the "pension expense" is concerned, I'm all for going to a 401(k) plan with a company match - we'll see about expensive.

Incidently, Overspeed - not that there's a dime's worth of difference but are you TWU elite or AA/AMR management?

So after they fire all these managers how many CCs will be stepping up to the plate to do the job the pre-1995 one's did? I agree we have poor leadership all across this company and union. From over-promising and under-delivering union leaders to pompous no nothing managers. How about cleaning house of all these boat anchors? There are a few AMTs that need a tune up as well sitting in break rooms while those who work carry the load for them yet rat to HR when someone calls it like it is. Good managers and Union men can't do their jobs because of a senior leadership abdicates their role to HR.

I like my defined benefit pension and you know what, a lot of people who lost their nest egg in this last ten years would too if they had one. 401(k)? The Wall Street scam artists use your money to make themselves rich and want to outsource your job to do it. Check out the brief look behind the curtain in the movie Inside Job. Don't let Wall Street sell you on the hope of quick riches by privatizing SS and your defined benefit pension plan. And besides, do you have $10,000 a year to invest in a 401(k) of spare income? Is that disposable income coming in the form of the raise Bob is going to get us in addition to the $45/hour one we have been promised with the full retro?

Elite? No, just someone who has had enough of the misguided info being put out there.

Manager, not a dirty word like many say. I have known and worked for some good ones like I am sure you have. If a manager is fair
and sets realistic expectations as well as understands people skills we will work with them.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

FedEx and UPS are cargo outfits with much lower operating overhead. No frequent flyer programs, baggage handling, strict schedules to maintain, etc... They can afford to pay small select group of core skill workers to keep their operation running. SWA, allowing work to be outsourced to third world countries to offset the higher wage rates of a select, core group allows them to pay higher wages. None of the top performing airlines are willing to outsource the line AMT jobs...yet. Ever wonder why? Business lobbyists lean on legislators to continue to undermine regulations that require higher standards to maintain aircraft. The TWU report that was published a few months back details a lot of incidents where airlines like UAL, SWA, Jetblue, DL, CO, and US Air send their work overseas to outfits that do not do background checks, have lax security, no drug testing, and have people that do not speak the international language of aviation - English - work on aircraft and not translate the manuals. It is only a matter of time when AA will have to start outsourcing and maybe they will pay higher wages to those that remain as a result.

The reason the TWU can't get those higher wages? Maybe it's because the TWU negotiators are trying to get SWA wages without adopting SWA type work rules? A UPS AMT told me that under the new IBT agreement they can outsource even line work now on aircraft that spend a lot of their flying time outside the US. Would AA AMTs be willing to accept allowing line work to be outsourced in exchange for UPS wages? AMFA at SWA allowed work to be outsourced to El Salvador, would AA AMTs be willing to accept that work to be outsourced?

I know people champion JR & Bob's push to accept nothing less than UPS wages but his understanding of basic operating and finance principles is playing right in to Jim Weel's hands. It has been easy to blame AA for stalling but maybe they do that because they know our current negotiating stance and the mindset of the mediator allows them to play the current TWU negotiating dream team like a fiddle. AA gets a pay cut every year we don't have an agreement. Three years and counting, we need new people at the bargaining table, not rollovers but people that can truly understand the situation and not tell us stories that they know aren't true. These guy's negotiating now believe that their all or nothing ideas and if they lose, they say that they were willing to fight but blame us for being weak. Making promises you can't deliver on because you either underestimated your opponent or overestimated your own strength, that's weak.

Spoken like a true company/twu stool.

 

[Bob Owens]

Ok, so if it's not "professionalism" then what is it that prohibits the AMT's from getting UPS wages? What is it that makes AA play games with the TWU, and only the TWU?

Only the TWU? What about the APA and the APFA?

There has to be a reason why management disrespects the mechanics? I'm trying to find a solution to a problem, and that problem centers on why AA will not negotiate in good faith with it's mechanics, pilots, and f/a's.

Nor their Fleet Service Clerks, Stock clerks or dispatchers (who started in 2006).

There has to be a reason why? There has to be a reason why UPS, Fed Ex and SWA feel compelled to pay their mechanics $45-50 per hour, right?

UPS didnt want to take on IBT local 2727, Fed Ex doesnt want to have to deal with Local 2727 and SWA embraces the culture of a rising tide lifts all boats. SWA is just one generation from the founder era. Herb Kelleher was and airline builder, what we have are people who think of airplanes, and the workers as widgets, no more. They would be just as happy running AT&T or Hallmark.

 

[odie01]

I asked before.....why is SWA, UPS and Fed EX compelled to pay their mechanics $45-52 per hour. It's not out of the kindness of their hearts, that's for sure. These companies farm out OH, but they don't have to pay their mechanics these high wages....they can follow other carriers and pay what we make $33. So, why can AMFA and Teamsters convince their management to accept these high wages and good benefits, and WE CAN'T? There has to be a reason why?

Are SWA, UPS and Fed Ex, unions as watered down as ours? Look at our union with all the different title groups and classifications, it's so easy for the company to manipulate us, and play us against each other. Think about it Carmen, does SWA, UPS and Fed ex have all the different title groups and classifications we do, and better yet, do they have fleet service riding their coat-tails? It all comes down to good union leadership and policing your union members, that will never happen with the twu because we our constantly fighting ourselves. Cheers to AA managment for delaying the contract and stockpiling our cash to buy aircraft, to turn around and sell to their leasing company at a profit. Jeers to the twu AA ground service people, (that's AC maintenance, fleet, title 1-50,ect.,) for keeping a union where your voice don't mean sh it. And respect from the company? that's a different thread.

 

[Bob Owens]

FedEx and UPS are cargo outfits with much lower operating overhead. No frequent flyer programs, baggage handling, strict schedules to maintain, etc... They can afford to pay small select group of core skill workers to keep their operation running. SWA, allowing work to be outsourced to third world countries to offset the higher wage rates of a select, core group allows them to pay higher wages. None of the top performing airlines are willing to outsource the line AMT jobs...yet. Ever wonder why? Business lobbyists lean on legislators to continue to undermine regulations that require higher standards to maintain aircraft. The TWU report that was published a few months back details a lot of incidents where airlines like UAL, SWA, Jetblue, DL, CO, and US Air send their work overseas to outfits that do not do background checks, have lax security, no drug testing, and have people that do not speak the international language of aviation - English - work on aircraft and not translate the manuals. It is only a matter of time when AA will have to start outsourcing and maybe they will pay higher wages to those that remain as a result.

If cargo is so cheap to move why did AA dump much of their Cargo business? Why not go more into that business? They may not have frequent flyer programs but they serve door to door, not airport to airport and that brings their costs up. Not of the LBS that g into thoe planes walk on, they are all loaded.

I believe the deal at SWA was to bring more lines in house in exchange for being able to do what UAL, CO and USAIR were already doing. But because those carriers have Unions other than AMFA that fact is usually omitted.

All of the airlines, including AA, outsource some line maintenance work, have for years.


Prior to 2001 AA was one of the leaders in outsourcing. The CR Smith letter spelled out why, they would outsource and maintain a stable workforce. AA has indeed reversed the trend, others started outsourcing more and AA actually found that they saved by doing it in house.

The reason the TWU can't get those higher wages? Maybe it's because the TWU negotiators are trying to get SWA wages without adopting SWA type work rules? A UPS AMT told me that under the new IBT agreement they can outsource even line work now on aircraft that spend a lot of their flying time outside the US. Would AA AMTs be willing to accept allowing line work to be outsourced in exchange for UPS wages? AMFA at SWA allowed work to be outsourced to El Salvador, would AA AMTs be willing to accept that work to be outsourced?

Our line work is outsourced when its done outside the US. If a plane runs out of time they can and do accomplish Acks outside the US. In fact its outsourced to Non-TWU AA mechanics in Europe who earn around $45/hr and have much better work rules and benifits than we do. You may not consider that to be outsourced work, and the TWU does not have that counted as outsourced work and the work they do for other airlines gets added to our figures as insourced work, and its significant, but to me if its outside the contract group its outsourced. UPS also has aircraft that operate point to point outside the US, most are chartered and maintained and operated by the owners, kind of like how Eagle and One World partners fly passengers ticketed as AA. They only own 200 airplanes.

I know people champion JR & Bob's push to accept nothing less than UPS wages but his understanding of basic operating and finance principles is playing right in to Jim Weel's hands. It has been easy to blame AA for stalling but maybe they do that because they know our current negotiating stance and the mindset of the mediator allows them to play the current TWU negotiating dream team like a fiddle. AA gets a pay cut every year we don't have an agreement. Three years and counting, we need new people at the bargaining table, not rollovers but people that can truly understand the situation and not tell us stories that they know aren't true. These guy's negotiating now believe that their all or nothing ideas and if they lose, they say that they were willing to fight but blame us for being weak. Making promises you can't deliver on because you either underestimated your opponent or overestimated your own strength, that's weak.

Wrong again, what we will not accept is BK based wages. We arent asking for anywhere near UPS wage of over $50/hr, in fact we arent asking for SWA wages, We are asking to be ahead of all the BK carriers such as UAL, USAIR and Delta, by the way all those agreements are open. Delta is Non-union so theirs is permanently open, UAL just rejected at TA and USAIRs contract just started negotiations. So what is so unreasonable about that? Ahead of the BK pack but below the pack that did not go BK. Even JetBlue mechs earn as much as $40/hr now.

 

[Bob Owens]

snip- "AMFA at SWA allowed work to be outsourced to El Salvador, would AA AMTs be willing to accept that work to be outsourced?"

Incorrect overspeed, it wasn't AMFA that allowed the "D" checks to be outsourced, it was the ibt. The checks were outsourced long before AMFA got in at SWA.

AMFA has brought more work in, they have a new line of "C" I believe when they signed the new contract.

You are both right. AMFA allowed work that was already outsourced to be sent overseas. Prior to that they could only outsource in the US. UPS has similar language restricting outsourced work within the US. In return they brought some outsourced work in house.

As far as I know we have no restrictions on where we send our outsourced work.
I recall that we were shipping our Airbus engines overseas for OH for a while back in the 90s. I remember taking them on and off the lowboys. When they came back we couldnt tell they were overhauled and many of them failed the run up.

Like I said we used to be the leaders in outsourcing.

 

[Bob Owens]

Is that disposable income coming in the form of the raise Bob is going to get us in addition to the $45/hour one we have been promised with the full retro?

Promised? When? $45? Where? You said you are "just someone who has had enough of the misguided info being put out there."

Seems like you figured "cant beat join em"!

We are looking for a top pay of around $44. That would be a guy working nights in a high cost area. At the most a few hundred mechanics. The majority would be at $39, with around 1200 OSMs way below that. I havent figured out what the weighted average would be but my guess is around $40/hr. Thats $5/hr less than SWA and $10/hr less than UPS.

 

[strikeforce]

Are SWA, UPS and Fed Ex, unions as watered down as ours? Look at our union with all the different title groups and classifications, it's so easy for the company to manipulate us, and play us against each other. Think about it Carmen, does SWA, UPS and Fed ex have all the different title groups and classifications we do, and better yet, do they have fleet service riding their coat-tails? It all comes down to good union leadership and policing your union members, that will never happen with the twu because we our constantly fighting ourselves. Cheers to AA managment for delaying the contract and stockpiling our cash to buy aircraft, to turn around and sell to their leasing company at a profit. Jeers to the twu AA ground service people, (that's AC maintenance, fleet, title 1-50,ect.,) for keeping a union where your voice don't mean sh it. And respect from the company? that's a different thread.

You're right!!

Hey, guys on this forum can bash me for sounding pro-company, but I don't blame AA for what transpired the last 8 years. They did whatever it took to lower their costs and steal my money.....whether it was through manipulation, cheating or scamming. I don't pay AA $700 a year to represent me. The true culprits behind our demise is the union that takes our money and provides NOTHING in return....plain & simple, and it continues today. I just don't know any other way of convincing the guys on this forum, as well as, the thousands of mechanics systemwide that change is needed.....right now!!!!

Steve, if guys don't get it, or just don't care....shame on them. The members had a chance with AMFA and blew it. We have a chance now with AMP.....and it doesn't look like anything has changed. The guys obviously like the culture of the TWU. So, maybe they should go about their business of playing with their laptops, whine & ####, and continue the animosity at work. Oh, and keep waiting month after month for our DO NOTHING negotiators to continue giving us the same BS........"we thank you for supporting the negotiating committee and for your patience while we try and get you an agreement by 2020!!! Money well spent, don't you think Steve?

 

[Bob Owens]

You're right!!

Hey, guys on this forum can bash me for sounding pro-company, but I don't blame AA for what transpired the last 8 years. They did whatever it took to lower their costs and steal my money.....whether it was through manipulation, cheating or scamming.

And you just spent the last two days claiming that if we acted more professional the same company you dont blame for stealing your money would be willing to pay you more?

 

[odie01]

You're right!!

Hey, guys on this forum can bash me for sounding pro-company, but I don't blame AA for what transpired the last 8 years. They did whatever it took to lower their costs and steal my money.....whether it was through manipulation, cheating or scamming. I don't pay AA $700 a year to represent me. The true culprits behind our demise is the union that takes our money and provides NOTHING in return....plain & simple, and it continues today. I just don't know any other way of convincing the guys on this forum, as well as, the thousands of mechanics systemwide that change is needed.....right now!!!!

Steve, if guys don't get it, or just don't care....shame on them. The members had a chance with AMFA and blew it. We have chance now with AMP.....and it doesn't look like anything has changed. The guys obviously like the culture of the TWU. So, maybe they should go about their business of playing with their laptops, whine & ####, and continue the animosity at work. Oh, and keep waiting month after month for our DO NOTHING negotiators to continue giving us the same BS........"we thank you for supporting the negotiating committee and for your patience while we try and get you an agreement by 2020!!! Money well spent, don't you think Steve?

It's Tulsa again Carmen, they're scared. The only way we are going to get a union that represents our skilled profession, is to convince Tulsa that its not their Daddy's union anymore. AA will farm out what it wants, when it wants, no matter what union is on the property. The AMP drive is not over, and if we fall short before the our filing deadline, it will be extendened. We have to continue to collect cards. It's the only resistance we have. We picked up more organizers in MIA and in ORD, and it seems like we are building some momentum, so I'm in it for the long haul. Anybody else?