TWU negotiations.........what?

[Overspeed]

If cargo is so cheap to move why did AA dump much of their Cargo business? Why not go more into that business? They may not have frequent flyer programs but they serve door to door, not airport to airport and that brings their costs up. Not of the LBS that g into thoe planes walk on, they are all loaded.

I believe the deal at SWA was to bring more lines in house in exchange for being able to do what UAL, CO and USAIR were already doing. But because those carriers have Unions other than AMFA that fact is usually omitted.

All of the airlines, including AA, outsource some line maintenance work, have for years.

Prior to 2001 AA was one of the leaders in outsourcing. The CR Smith letter spelled out why, they would outsource and maintain a stable workforce. AA has indeed reversed the trend, others started outsourcing more and AA actually found that they saved by doing it in house.

Our line work is outsourced when its done outside the US. If a plane runs out of time they can and do accomplish Acks outside the US. In fact its outsourced to Non-TWU AA mechanics in Europe who earn around $45/hr and have much better work rules and benifits than we do. You may not consider that to be outsourced work, and the TWU does not have that counted as outsourced work and the work they do for other airlines gets added to our figures as insourced work, and its significant, but to me if its outside the contract group its outsourced. UPS also has aircraft that operate point to point outside the US, most are chartered and maintained and operated by the owners, kind of like how Eagle and One World partners fly passengers ticketed as AA. They only own 200 airplanes.

Wrong again, what we will not accept is BK based wages. We arent asking for anywhere near UPS wage of over $50/hr, in fact we arent asking for SWA wages, We are asking to be ahead of all the BK carriers such as UAL, USAIR and Delta, by the way all those agreements are open. Delta is Non-union so theirs is permanently open, UAL just rejected at TA and USAIRs contract just started negotiations. So what is so unreasonable about that? Ahead of the BK pack but below the pack that did not go BK. Even JetBlue mechs earn as much as $40/hr now.

Bob, if you know so much about running an airline why not do it an make a lot of money for yourself? AA has reduced belly capacity without all those DC10s, MD11s, and A300s. The available cargo capacity is not there in the volume AA once had.

What other lines? The new AMFA agreement caps the number of AMTs per aircraft below what they currently have now. You need to read their agreement. So if you agree with what SWA/AMFA did to do what UAL, CO, and US are doing then will that becoming in our next TA?

Not to the degree DL, UA, SWA, and Jetblue do. Not even close.

Uh no. Save money? How? If you are saying AA has better maintenance reliability than the outsourced carriers check again. When AA has to keep aircraft parked all over the system to maintain schedule and the other airlines don't - even with a work force on post BK wages - then you are not saving money. Your contract keeps the work in house, not your distorted perception and no basis in fact statement that in house work force saves money.

New UPS agreement provides a specific formula for work on UPS owned and operated planes to be worked on outside the US. TWU/AA agreement has no such provision. In Europe they pay 50% plus taxes on that $45/hour and pretty much all benefits like healthcare and pensions are socialized. Need to compare the whole package before taking items out of context. Isn't that what you accuse others of?

Then where is our industry leading wages? Didn't the 2010 TA leapfrog everyone but one airline according to the info we were sent? And Bob, you keep telling us that we need to get AA to pay us SWA wages since they can afford new planes and bonuses. You tell the people that every junket you take around the system. So you told us to vote no so we could get the same thing years later? That's awesome! So what about Jetblue? They don't have overhaul and they outsource to El Salvador. You don't think AA would take that deal?

 

[Duke787]

Bob, if you know so much about running an airline why not do it an make a lot of money for yourself? AA has reduced belly capacity without all those DC10s, MD11s, and A300s. The available cargo capacity is not there in the volume AA once had.

What other lines? The new AMFA agreement caps the number of AMTs per aircraft below what they currently have now. You need to read their agreement. So if you agree with what SWA/AMFA did to do what UAL, CO, and US are doing then will that becoming in our next TA?

Not to the degree DL, UA, SWA, and Jetblue do. Not even close.

Uh no. Save money? How? If you are saying AA has better maintenance reliability than the outsourced carriers check again. When AA has to keep aircraft parked all over the system to maintain schedule and the other airlines don't - even with a work force on post BK wages - then you are not saving money. Your contract keeps the work in house, not your distorted perception and no basis in fact statement that in house work force saves money.

New UPS agreement provides a specific formula for work on UPS owned and operated planes to be worked on outside the US. TWU/AA agreement has no such provision. In Europe they pay 50% plus taxes on that $45/hour and pretty much all benefits like healthcare and pensions are socialized. Need to compare the whole package before taking items out of context. Isn't that what you accuse others of?

Then where is our industry leading wages? Didn't the 2010 TA leapfrog everyone but one airline according to the info we were sent? And Bob, you keep telling us that we need to get AA to pay us SWA wages since they can afford new planes and bonuses. You tell the people that every junket you take around the system. So you told us to vote no so we could get the same thing years later? That's awesome! So what about Jetblue? They don't have overhaul and they outsource to El Salvador. You don't think AA would take that deal?

Overspeed, one thing you are going to have to understand when reading Bob Owens, is that not everything he writes is FACT based, by his own admission some of it is speculation. The only thing is, he doesn't mention when it is speculative or if it is fact based when writing, but I think his heart is in the right place.

 

[strikeforce]

And you just spent the last two days claiming that if we acted more professional the same company you dont blame for stealing your money would be willing to pay you more?

You just don't get it, Bob!

If some of the gem co-workers, and that includes union officials, acted more professional.....there wouldn't be the rift between management and the union that has festered for many years. You can't dispute the fact that we have clownish individuals in leadership positions within the TWU. To management, if union leaders act like clowns, and act un-professional, then it's assumed that most of the TWU is a bunch of clowns.

You're right....why in the world would AA pay top dollar to a bunch of un-professional clowns. You just proved my point.....if the TWU had a strong leadership culture and would have some type of internal controls to where they wouldn't tolerate the non-sense by it's members, and they properly represented the people.....we wouldn't be in this mess, would we? Then, maybe AA would have had a little more respect for the TWU members and officials, and wouldn't have pulled off the biggest raping of mankind. It all comes back full circle to the TWU, Bob, and you're right in the middle of this quagmire.

 

[777Eagle]

It's Tulsa again Carmen, they're scared. The only way we are going to get a union that represents our skilled profession, is to convince Tulsa that its not their Daddy's union anymore. AA will farm out what it wants, when it wants, no matter what union is on the property. The AMP drive is not over, and if we fall short before the our filing deadline, it will be extendened. We have to continue to collect cards. It's the only resistance we have. We picked up more organizers in MIA and in ORD, and it seems like we are building some momentum, so I'm in it for the long haul. Anybody else?

NO!!!!!!!!!

 

[Duke787]

FedEx and UPS are cargo outfits with much lower operating overhead. No frequent flyer programs, baggage handling, strict schedules to maintain, etc... They can afford to pay small select group of core skill workers to keep their operation running. SWA, allowing work to be outsourced to third world countries to offset the higher wage rates of a select, core group allows them to pay higher wages. None of the top performing airlines are willing to outsource the line AMT jobs...yet. Ever wonder why? Business lobbyists lean on legislators to continue to undermine regulations that require higher standards to maintain aircraft. The TWU report that was published a few months back details a lot of incidents where airlines like UAL, SWA, Jetblue, DL, CO, and US Air send their work overseas to outfits that do not do background checks, have lax security, no drug testing, and have people that do not speak the international language of aviation - English - work on aircraft and not translate the manuals. It is only a matter of time when AA will have to start outsourcing and maybe they will pay higher wages to those that remain as a result.

The reason the TWU can't get those higher wages? Maybe it's because the TWU negotiators are trying to get SWA wages without adopting SWA type work rules? A UPS AMT told me that under the new IBT agreement they can outsource even line work now on aircraft that spend a lot of their flying time outside the US. Would AA AMTs be willing to accept allowing line work to be outsourced in exchange for UPS wages? AMFA at SWA allowed work to be outsourced to El Salvador, would AA AMTs be willing to accept that work to be outsourced?

I know people champion JR & Bob's push to accept nothing less than UPS wages but his understanding of basic operating and finance principles is playing right in to Jim Weel's hands. It has been easy to blame AA for stalling but maybe they do that because they know our current negotiating stance and the mindset of the mediator allows them to play the current TWU negotiating dream team like a fiddle. AA gets a pay cut every year we don't have an agreement. Three years and counting, we need new people at the bargaining table, not rollovers but people that can truly understand the situation and not tell us stories that they know aren't true. These guy's negotiating now believe that their all or nothing ideas and if they lose, they say that they were willing to fight but blame us for being weak. Making promises you can't deliver on because you either underestimated your opponent or overestimated your own strength, that's weak.

Well said,

 

[Duke787]

Spoken like a true company/twu stool.

Is it possible to come up with a argument to add to the conversation. Rather then to berate someone with a different opinion then yours.

 

[Bob Owens]

You just don't get it, Bob!

If some of the gem co-workers, and that includes union officials, acted more professional.....there wouldn't be the rift between management and the union that has festered for many years. You can't dispute the fact that we have clownish individuals in leadership positions within the TWU. To management, if union leaders act like clowns, and act un-professional, then it's assumed that most of the TWU is a bunch of clowns.

You're right....why in the world would AA pay top dollar to a bunch of un-professional clowns. You just proved my point.....if the TWU had a strong leadership culture and would have some type of internal controls to where they wouldn't tolerate the non-sense by it's members, and they properly represented the people.....we wouldn't be in this mess, would we? Then, maybe AA would have had a little more respect for the TWU members and officials, and wouldn't have pulled off the biggest raping of mankind. It all comes back full circle to the TWU, Bob, and you're right in the middle of this quagmire.

Which point did I prove, that AA wont pay us no matter what or that they would pay us if they thought we acted more professionally?

You just dont get it, these college boys that run this place have no respect for any on us, not mechanics, not pilots or anyone other than themselves and they will always try and see how little they can get away with paying us. They dont look at you as an individual they look at you as a unit of a cost center and they assume that no matter what they pay you that your productivity will remain the same. You say that the leadership of the Union is unacceptable, you have the option to try and change that, run for office. I'm not saying that it will be easy, or that you will succeed but trying and failing is still better than just complaining about it.

 

[strikeforce]

Which point did I prove, that AA wont pay us no matter what or that they would pay us if they thought we acted more professionally?

You just dont get it, these college boys that run this place have no respect for any on us, not mechanics, not pilots or anyone other than themselves and they will always try and see how little they can get away with paying us. They dont look at you as an individual they look at you as a unit of a cost center and they assume that no matter what they pay you that your productivity will remain the same. You say that the leadership of the Union is unacceptable, you have the option to try and change that, run for office. I'm not saying that it will be easy, or that you will succeed but trying and failing is still better than just complaining about it.

You proved my point... that IF management and union were both professional, and repected each other......and I'm talking many moons ago....that we most likely would get along, work for a common goal, and have a better working relationship. We currently have the opposite, and it's definitely not to OUR advantage when both parties hate each other.

Bob, I wouldn't go around and admit that you're getting outmanuevered and beat by a bunch of college boys.....doesn't look good, my friend!

AA won't pay us no matter what......then why waste your time, month after month? Spend your time organizing the troops to shut the place down????

I'm not associating myself with an organization that has as much respect for our members, as AA. Much easier to spend more time criticizing our leadership for it's failures....with the hope that more people will want change, and get rid of the TWU!

 

[strikeforce]

They dont look at you as an individual they look at you as a unit of a cost center and they assume that no matter what they pay you that your productivity will remain the same.

Honestly Bob, did you ever think that these college boys might be right?

You know how I would deal with these math & numbers college boys is to make their graphs and stats look horrible. Tanking on-time arrivals/departures......lots of OTS.....easy way to get these guys fired!!!! The only way, Bob!

 

[AV1]

Honestly Bob, did you ever think that these college boys might be right?

You know how I would deal with these math & numbers college boys is to make their graphs and stats look horrible. Tanking on-time arrivals/departures......lots of OTS.....easy way to get these guys fired!!!! The only way, Bob!

What?????? I just read this post and maybe missed something. Is this the same person that for a week has been posting about how professional we should act? If so, you have lost some credibility with what your stance is. I happen to agree with the current one but at least stay consistent with your rants. Don't Waffle!

 

[strikeforce]

What?????? I just read this post and maybe missed something. Is this the same person that for a week has been posting about how professional we should act? If so, you have lost some credibility with what your stance is. I happen to agree with the current one but at least stay consistent with your rants. Don't Waffle!

who's waffling?

So, you don't think that working professionally, and doing your job verbatim...which may or may not result in higher ots and planes not making trips on-time aren't correlated?

I never said that I'm going jump thru hoops to help AA management look good, did I? And, I never said that I will purposely go out of my way to ground the fleet, did I?

Maybe you missed my earlier posts regarding professionalism, but I basically said that AMFA and the IBT most likely have higher expectations from their members, i.e. act and work like professionals, and they probably have a much better working relationship with management than we do, and in the long run it definitely benefits their mechanics in negotiations.

The TWU doesn't have expectations from our people, and they've allowed mechanics to run rampant and act like fools around each other and management, and that definitely hurts US all when the union sits with management. I know it's a lost cause because Bob Owens said that we're dealing with gung ho college boys that are beating Bob like a pulp.
Therefore, the only way to beat these grads are to play their numbers game and make them look like idiots.


I've been pretty consistent.......get rid of the TWU! What don't people on this forum understand? I just don't know whatelse I can say to convince the naysayers that we need change?

I understand everyone's frustrations, but you need to turn your attention to the TWU, and how they're trying to undermine the process. Where's the organizing efforts to rally the troops, both on a local level, and from the negotiating team? Don't you think the TWU should have banded together back in 2003, and then having a gameplan in hand by 2008?

Why hasn't anyone on this forum questioned Bob Owens about his gameplan...I'm talking about the one besides waiting around to be "released", which will never happen. Oh, that's right, there isn't one, right Bob?

Like I said before.....I know management scammed me in 2003, but I DON'T PAY AA TO REPRESENT ME, I PAY THE TWU!!!!
That's the only organization I can blame for putting me in this quagmire!!!

 

[odie01]

Hello AMP supporters,

AMP Steering Committee wanted to share with everyone that we recently visited ORD on Saturday June 4th, & MIA June 23rd at the terminals.


The MIA groups that visited throughout the day had great questions and the awareness of AMP was elevated by the many conversations on how AMP will help raise the Mechanics and Related, wages, skill premiums, benefits, membership control, accountability of Local & National Officers & Promote our group as skilled professionals with the company.

The continued conversations of how TWU is unaccountable, unprofessional, not representing Mechanics/Related benefits, wages, negotiating , work rules and how the TWU has continually watered down our professions. Our profession is hanging on by a thread, what was a career is now just a job. The expressed discontent with the TWU International was very prevalent.

The AMP Representative's, expressed that AMP Steering Committee needed each one of the mechanics committed in helping make the Undemocratic TWU accountable.

Since the TWU International Officers cant be voted out, the only way possible to make TWU accountable is to replace TWU with a democratic Union:
AMP -"A UNION CREATED FOR THE BENEFIT of the MEMBER'S"

This was expressed throughout the meeting in MIA &ORD. The time spent with the groups that came up to visit and express concerns, were genuinely concerned about contract negotiations, unifying our members, voting/recalling of Local and National officers, professionalism, Final Control by the Membership, card count %, NMB Voting procedures, negotiations, AMP Constitution foundation, How AMP got started by mechanics, perception of the mechanic at AA and making our profession strong again by showing the Company we are Skilled Professionals. AMP REPs want to thank everyone who attended throughout the day at both locations, From the HGR, Line & Facilities Maintenance Mechanics. AMP looks forward in representing all of the MIA & ORD stations and the continued signing of AMP Authorization cards. A great appreciation goes out to the individuals who help organize the meetings and passed out AMP Information. Thank you MIA for all your signed cards, organizing support, coffee and donations.

What people forget is the "Union" is the members. When we all look at the union we have today (TWU) we see the TWU International controlling- decisions, negotiations, appointing positions, spending money, and again controlling the "Union" Members. All those responsibilities with no accountability or repercussions if they are handled poorly.

One of AMP's Steering Committee's goals after the last Organizers meeting is not only to just get a card signed, we need to get more AMP organizers from across the system for a structure/foundation and that was just recently continued in MIA. The MIA group was a strong group of Mechanic who are ready to replace the TWU. Keep in mind, the AMP Steering Committee is requesting, if we are going to finish this cause of replacement of the TWU, everyone needs to get on the phone, email, in person and contact the people you know locally or from across the system. The Mechanics and Related can not waste any more time hoping and wishing TWU will change things for all of us. TWU has shown consistently, that they will not improve our contract with the company. Overwhelming amount proof has been seen by TWU International actions.

We at AA all have another option of taking care of our careers and profession and we have to take action starting now. We all have the knowledge on how to take care of ourselves, now we have the tools to fix it and that is an Independent Union- AMP!

After three years of negotiations and eight years of concessions the TWU has managed nothing more than a failed T/A and a couple of t-shirts with slogans on them, what we need is change we need to hire professionals to help negotiate and to step up the pressure on the NMB {mediator} to those who say we should not change in midstream, we say since 1995 we have had one contract and one concession simply put enough is enough the time has come for a change and that change is AMP!

 

[Hopeful]

By any chance, did AMP mention ANYTHING about a vote??
Why so hush hush on the card drive?

 

[odie01]

Magnificent Seven”

Remember the western movie called “The Magnificent Seven”? This was 7 guys who decided to fight for a small town being bullied by a gang of thugs. It was the town’s poor people that hired these “magnificent seven” to protect them. A great movie with a strong message.

Here in the TWU we do not have the “magnificent seven” we have something that would make the town’s people in this movie to simply pack up and move away. We at AA who were never given a chance to elect ANY international officers. For the defenders of our craft & class the following positions which those within our craft and class did not vote for there are:

International Executive Board Members: 32 people.

International Executive Council: 9 people.

International Vice Presidents: 13 people.

International Administrative Vice Presidents: 1 person.

Now we at AA are being bullied by a gang of thugs calling themselves management who feel that concessionary contracts are something they need to survive while they continue taking bonuses. Where is our help? Where are our protectors? Well, one of these “protectors”, Bobby Gless, who doesn’t share the burden of concessions considering he wasn’t elected by the membership and makes three times what a union member makes feels it important enough to tell AMTs that AMTs need to lower their expectations in negotiations. WHAT? This would be like Yule Brynner playing Chris Adams in the Magnificent Seven telling the town’s people “Hey, guys. It isn’t so bad being threatened. Relax.”

Things have gotten so bad from within the membership that an AMT from New York started an on-line petition calling for “No Confidence in Bob Gless”. Our craft & class even has an elected Local President who has generated a letter asking for members to sign and send to the top unelected position within the TWU International to seek a thirty day cooling off process which could lead to self-help. Why does an ELECTED President have to petition an UNELECTED International Officer to fight for the membership?

With the TWU International as our defenders they certainly are not performing like the “Magnificent Seven” they are acting like 53 people the town’s people never got an opportunity to ask help them but are saddled with their lack of democracy and accountability to protect them.

With AMP there are three National Officers elected by the full membership and these National Officers have term limits because eventually these elected officials will have to return to town and live with the same town’s people who put them into office.

Sign an AMP Authorization Card!

 

[Overspeed]

Magnificent Seven”

Remember the western movie called “The Magnificent Seven”? This was 7 guys who decided to fight for a small town being bullied by a gang of thugs. It was the town’s poor people that hired these “magnificent seven” to protect them. A great movie with a strong message.

Here in the TWU we do not have the “magnificent seven” we have something that would make the town’s people in this movie to simply pack up and move away. We at AA who were never given a chance to elect ANY international officers. For the defenders of our craft & class the following positions which those within our craft and class did not vote for there are:

International Executive Board Members: 32 people.

International Executive Council: 9 people.

International Vice Presidents: 13 people.

International Administrative Vice Presidents: 1 person.

Now we at AA are being bullied by a gang of thugs calling themselves management who feel that concessionary contracts are something they need to survive while they continue taking bonuses. Where is our help? Where are our protectors? Well, one of these “protectors”, Bobby Gless, who doesn’t share the burden of concessions considering he wasn’t elected by the membership and makes three times what a union member makes feels it important enough to tell AMTs that AMTs need to lower their expectations in negotiations. WHAT? This would be like Yule Brynner playing Chris Adams in the Magnificent Seven telling the town’s people “Hey, guys. It isn’t so bad being threatened. Relax.”

Things have gotten so bad from within the membership that an AMT from New York started an on-line petition calling for “No Confidence in Bob Gless”. Our craft & class even has an elected Local President who has generated a letter asking for members to sign and send to the top unelected position within the TWU International to seek a thirty day cooling off process which could lead to self-help. Why does an ELECTED President have to petition an UNELECTED International Officer to fight for the membership?

With the TWU International as our defenders they certainly are not performing like the “Magnificent Seven” they are acting like 53 people the town’s people never got an opportunity to ask help them but are saddled with their lack of democracy and accountability to protect them.

With AMP there are three National Officers elected by the full membership and these National Officers have term limits because eventually these elected officials will have to return to town and live with the same town’s people who put them into office.

Sign an AMP Authorization Card!

Sign an AMP card...uh no. An organization based on a poor ideology.

"Specialization and/or division of labor do not allow the worker to have control over the entire product and/or labor process. This has been recognized at least since the time of Adam Smith (Smith 1977 [1776]). In addition to this, specialization and skill formation in contemporary global capitalism puts the individual worker at risk of instant de-skilling, despite the seemingly intact “physical” attributes or use value of the skills themselves. This raises a crucial question about the redundancy of workers’ skills and highlights the difficulty of reliance on “craft” skills to enhance workplace control. Skilling and de-skilling of the labor force are the inevitable result of the competitive pressures created by global technological change. Three global trends within air transport affecting airline mechanics—the diminished role of major carriers, the change in fleet composition, and the growing use of outsourcing—are symptomatic of heightened competitive pressure in this industry. A framework developed in this article, synthesizing “creative destruction” and “destructive creation”, unifies the use value and exchange value of commodities (including those of skills), and thus presents a dynamic picture of commoditization of the labor process in the present stage of capitalism. This, both in theoretical and historical terms, challenges labor unions, such as AMFA—that are guided by the anachronism of craft orientation and often appeal to workers’ sense of professionalism—and cautions to reevaluate their strategy. Minimally, the trends we have discussed and their impact on the skills of mechanics in air transport, raise troubling doubts regarding the ability of craft unions to successfully control the workplace. In view of this fact, labor educators and union activists should be skeptical of any inference that organizing along craft lines will improve the position of those working in the majority of workplaces in the globalized economy."