TWU negotiations.........what?

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
Your examples are flawed.

In your example 1 you talk about STL being punished yet you have openly discussed that the TWA acquisition was a mistake. STL continues to get work and stay open due to their performance. Could the fact STL continues to stay open as a maintenance facility be because they work well. If purely a business decision shipping the work the work to say LGA would make more sense.

What does one have to do with the other? STL stays open because there is a need for it not because of their performance. The slots and space in LGA is very limited, keepng headcount up is also a challenge.

Example 2 you detail the 767 being sent to LAX. Don't airlines shuffle work based on their operations and facility capacity. No station owns the work. It is TWU AA work is it not?

exactly, no station owns the work and even if you are the best or worst in the system it really doesnt matter. For many years MIA had the reputation for being the worst in the system, yet MIA has done nothing but grow, and it will likely continue to do so..

In example 3 you talk about no OT. Greg Hall agreed to not layoff people in exchange that they would not work OT in the hope that union members could work instead of be laid off. The expectation is that the downturn would be short lived. Are you saying we should have laid off thousands so you could get OT?

No but then again Hall said a lot of things didnt he?

Example 4 you blame PLI but you incorrectly quote the $500M as recurring. It was not recurring or savings. It was value which could mean anything from a one time cost avoidance to harvesting JT8s off retired MD80s. You need to look at the MIT site. They show AA had less than 15 M&E employees per aircraft in the 1990s compared to over 20 to 1 today. AA had more fleet types then as well.

Obviously with all the competition for 3P work its cheaper for AA to do it in house.

More productive?

Yes AA is in the business to make money, and the amount of revenue generated per employee has nearly doubled, meaning we are nearly twice as productive as we were in 2002, what makes this even more remarkable is the fact that as you pointed out we do more work in house which should dilute that figure. The CASMs today are around what they were in 1930, in unadjusted figures.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
I respect your opinion, and respect your dedication to helping the members, but you are only fooling yourself, and providing false hope to the thousands of members systemwide that rely on your input during negotiations. AA is playing hardball, stalling and playing games with us because we are weak; act like clowns; and provide very little output while doing our jobs. Maybe I'm the only one that recognizes this everytime I go to work, maybe not? I've talked to numerous mechanics that work at SWA, UPS, and Fed Ex, and I'll tell you, these companies would NOT put up with the non-sense that happens at AA, both in management and amt's. Why is it that AA plays games only with the TWU, i.e. Fleet, M&E, Stores, and not with the pilots or f/a's? I don't see AA giving the pilots regressive proposals, do you?
Management is no angels to say the least, but I know we're better than they are, and WE should'nt stoop down to their level. Yes, they mis-manage the place, and waste millions, but the raping that happened in 2003 is OUR fault because WE allowed the union and the company for playing US for idiots.

Management is responsible for the management of the company. They put it in Regs that PEDs are allowed in the breakrooms, its not in the contract. Years ago when Crandall used to have his roadshows someone would always stand up and ask why couldnt they get the mechanics to do other work when they werent fixing something, his reply was "If my planes are ready to go I'm OK with that, next question". In the end it really doesnt matter if you do everything right if management is doing everything wrong, your sacrifices will not be rewarded. Workers can not save a company from bad management.

We dont see the pilots proposals at all, do you? From the FAs releases the company has made regressive proposals.

Ok I agree that the raping of 2003 was our fault to a degree, because we did not fight back, and the union stood by and didnt protect us, if anything they pulled our pants down for the company, but it was still the company that did the deed and continues to do it.

It is a known fact, and proven in any profession or industry that you are rewarded for the results you provide.

Thats nothing but management propaganda, much like the inscription over the gates of Aushwitz "Arbeit macht frei" (Work shall make you free).
If so provide me some examples outside this industry where they have a large workforce and the company provides rewards for the results provided. I've already shown how here at AA you've doubled your productivity yet the company is demanding more concessions.

It's no pipe dream or something I just made up, and considering that I think your pretty intelligent, I know that you'll agree with that statement.

Its something management made up. You have to fight for what you want and ultimately the weapon for winning that fight has always been reducing or terminating productivity, unions dont win increases because they gave productivity increases prior to negotiating better compensation. Sure once you win what you need then you produce but in a situation like this its foolish and goes against everything the labor movement has experienced over the last century to increase productivity as the company refuses to negotiate.

Yes, AA is a different animal, and they don't believe in rewarding for being more productive. Shame on them!!

And that is where we work and why your theory doesnt apply.

This still doesn't change the fact that WE should act and work more professionally.

Fine. as long as you do it "100% verbatum".

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ If professionalism was AA's sole criteria, MCIE would still be a part of AA's maintenance system!!----- But it's not,----- and neither are we!!!

 

[strikeforce]

Dunno, did I type too fast for you? I guess you can't tell I was being facetious (means not serious) in my post with the dreAAming and the little :blink: at the end. Hard to understand for a "professional" such as you I surmise.

Your the one that likes to continously disparage your coworkers and claim that AA has nothing but fools with tools, and of course your not included with any of that riff-raff...being your a "professional" and all. I am sure you go straight to work upon hitting the clock and no time is wasted by a "professional" such as yourself. I have seen this before, with people of a narcissistic attitude you display here. I guess if AA isn't getting the "bang for the buck" as you claim, it's time to shut the doors, dial up Wang Chung Aerospace and get those 600 flying beer cans over the pond so they are done right. Not much us "non-professionals" can do about that.

The rest of your idiotic post about NADS, good labor-management relations (WTF would you call the twu company unions 25 years of concessions?) and more "professional" garbage is more than I can stand.

Therefore I'm done addressing you, waste of my time....good day.

never said I was perfect, but you're right I am professional when I'm around my co-workers, management or the passengers. Hey, if the truth hurts, and you consider yourself "non" professional....so be it, but I call it like I see it.....and I'm not the only one on this forum that see's the riff-raff, clowns, and "non" professionals at work.
You, and many others on this forum, including Bob owens, obviously don't get my point, and that's fine. Then, just continue to be satisfied with more concessions because that's the best the TWU will do for you. 25 years and counting!!!
I have to agree with one thing.......If AA doesn't get the bang for their buck......they will look to Wang Chung to fix the 600 planes......don't kid yourself. Maybe it's part of their negotiation strategy.....we just don't know, do we?

 

[PhatSappy]

Professionalism is a trait we have to manage ourselves. The company could care less as long as the metal moves but that shouldn't define the mechanic. The mechanic has to create his own morale and be defined by his own actions. Some people have no professional code or morality and should be dismissed from both the TWU and the company.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

Some people have no professional code or morality and should be dismissed from both the TWU and the company.

... uh, those are the very people actively sought by both entities you referenced to fill their administrative/managerial positions ...

 

[strikeforce]

<_< ------ If professionalism was AA's sole criteria, MCIE would still be a part of AA's maintenance system!!----- But it's not,----- and neither are we!!!

MCIE was obviously not part of the big picture for M&E.

You and others don't see the point I'm trying to make here.....UPS, SWA, Fed Ex, and all the unions, mainly pilots, have a good working relationship with their mechanics.....they respect them as professionals by the product they provide, and therefore when the mechanics union sits down with the company during negotiations, they have leverage over management. Management can't dispute their performance....results, whatever you want to call it. That's really the only thing the union has in it's arsenal.......the performance of it's people. Maybe it's just me.....but I don't see the same respect, and good working relations from our peers, pilots, management or union.

 

[MCI transplant]

MCIE was obviously not part of the big picture for M&E.

You and others don't see the point I'm trying to make here.....UPS, SWA, Fed Ex, and all the unions, mainly pilots, have a good working relationship with their mechanics.....they respect them as professionals by the product they provide, and therefore when the mechanics union sits down with the company during negotiations, they have leverage over management. Management can't dispute their performance....results, whatever you want to call it. That's really the only thing the union has in it's arsenal.......the performance of it's people. Maybe it's just me.....but I don't see the same respect, and good working relations from our peers, pilots, management or union.

<_< ----No strikeforce!-------- You don't get the point! "Everyone" who worked at MCI throughout the years were Professionals! We've proven that time and time again working for both TWA, and American! Obviously AA Management had it's reasons for shutting us down, but because we weren't "professional", wasn't one of them!!!

 

[strikeforce]

<_< ----No strikeforce!-------- You don't get the point! "Everyone" who worked at MCI through the years were Professionals! We've proven that time and time again working for both TWA, and American! Obviously AA Management had other plans for us, but because we weren't "professional" wasn't one of them!!!

Ok, so if it's not "professionalism" then what is it that prohibits the AMT's from getting UPS wages? What is it that makes AA play games with the TWU, and only the TWU?
There has to be a reason why management disrespects the mechanics? I'm trying to find a solution to a problem, and that problem centers on why AA will not negotiate in good faith with it's mechanics, pilots, and f/a's. There has to be a reason why? There has to be a reason why UPS, Fed Ex and SWA feel compelled to pay their mechanics $45-50 per hour, right?

I mean, we're no closer to a deal than May 2008.

It still doesn't take away the fact that as an AMT profession we should act and work professionally, both with our peers, and other work groups.

 

[Overspeed]

What does one have to do with the other? STL stays open because there is a need for it not because of their performance. The slots and space in LGA is very limited, keepng headcount up is also a challenge.

exactly, no station owns the work and even if you are the best or worst in the system it really doesnt matter. For many years MIA had the reputation for being the worst in the system, yet MIA has done nothing but grow, and it will likely continue to do so..

No but then again Hall said a lot of things didnt he?

Obviously with all the competition for 3P work its cheaper for AA to do it in house.

Yes AA is in the business to make money, and the amount of revenue generated per employee has nearly doubled, meaning we are nearly twice as productive as we were in 2002, what makes this even more remarkable is the fact that as you pointed out we do more work in house which should dilute that figure. The CASMs today are around what they were in 1930, in unadjusted figures.

Are you refusing the work? Didn't LGA do 3 narrowbody BC's before? They would do it again I bet.

Cheaper? Couldn't AA save tons of money by outsourcing overhaul to El Salvador like SWA and Jetblue? They seem to run a better on time airline with cheap mechanics in foreign countries and pay only a select group of line mechanics top pay. Maybe that's what AA should do? How do you pay 10,000 people $45/hour and compete against people doing the same work for $5/hour?

MIA is growing because the maintenance opportunities are there. Those opportunities are driven by the revenue side, not M&E. M&E exists because AA exists right?

Yes he did. Good thing he was not in charge of M&E at AA or we would have most of our overhaul outsourced. They were bigger than AA in M&E at one time.

So if revenue has doubled while fuel has tripled (or more), and all your competitors have offloaded their pension expense you need to get a lot more productive huh?

 

[odie01]

Ok, so if it's not "professionalism" then what is it that prohibits the AMT's from getting UPS wages? What is it that makes AA play games with the TWU, and only the TWU?
There has to be a reason why management disrespects the mechanics? I'm trying to find a solution to a problem, and that problem centers on why AA will not negotiate in good faith with it's mechanics, pilots, and f/a's. There has to be a reason why? There has to be a reason why UPS, Fed Ex and SWA feel compelled to pay their mechanics $45-50 per hour, right?

I mean, we're no closer to a deal than May 2008.

It still doesn't take away the fact that as an AMT profession we should act and work professionally, both with our peers, and other work groups.

Carmen,
I think you know the answer's to most of your questions. Let me give you a clue, its the same common denominator for every answer. T__U, fill in the blank! The company and the twu are the same entity and you should know this by now, therefor we will never be respected as a skilled labor group, COLLECTIVLY WE HAVE NO NUTS.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

So if revenue has doubled while fuel has tripled (or more), and all your competitors have offloaded their pension expense you need to get a lot more productive huh?

Whenever the company gets serious about productivity, we'll see a minimum of half the office infestation hit the street and I'm not referring to people in the offices that actually do something. I'm talking about the management buffoons whose sole function is to think up ways to screw with the troops.

Cut their numbers to the point what's left has to do their jobs (if they actually had a real one) and quit hiring more of them to cover up errors.

As far as the "pension expense" is concerned, I'm all for going to a 401(k) plan with a company match - we'll see about expensive.

Incidently, Overspeed - not that there's a dime's worth of difference but are you TWU elite or AA/AMR management?

 

[MCI transplant]

Ok, so if it's not "professionalism" then what is it that prohibits the AMT's from getting UPS wages? What is it that makes AA play games with the TWU, and only the TWU?
There has to be a reason why management disrespects the mechanics? I'm trying to find a solution to a problem, and that problem centers on why AA will not negotiate in good faith with it's mechanics, pilots, and f/a's. There has to be a reason why? There has to be a reason why UPS, Fed Ex and SWA feel compelled to pay their mechanics $45-50 per hour, right?

I mean, we're no closer to a deal than May 2008.

It still doesn't take away the fact that as an AMT profession we should act and work professionally, both with our peers, and other work groups.

:huh: ----- Are you really that gullible???------ I can answer that in two words!:------ Money, and Greed!!!------ As for "professionalism," it is something you don't act out each day, it is something either you are!!! Or are not!!!

 

[toroshark]

Ok, so if it's not "professionalism" then what is it that prohibits the AMT's from getting UPS wages? What is it that makes AA play games with the TWU, and only the TWU?
There has to be a reason why management disrespects the mechanics? I'm trying to find a solution to a problem, and that problem centers on why AA will not negotiate in good faith with it's mechanics, pilots, and f/a's. There has to be a reason why? There has to be a reason why UPS, Fed Ex and SWA feel compelled to pay their mechanics $45-50 per hour, right?

I mean, we're no closer to a deal than May 2008.

It still doesn't take away the fact that as an AMT profession we should act and work professionally, both with our peers, and other work groups.

I am all for our people acting like professionals. We do have some outright clowns (Jads) who should not be allowed to look at a airplane much less work on one. But if AA management refuses to manage (ie: be slugs themselves) then there is not much that can be done about it. The reason that our pay lags the others so bad is because AA management is simply just greedier and lacking any moralistic character at all. Liars and thieves that are and will remain MORALLY BANKRUPT.

 

[strikeforce]

Carmen,
I think you know the answer's to most of your questions. Let me give you a clue, its the same common denominator for every answer. T__U, fill in the blank! The company and the twu are the same entity and you should know this by now, therefor we will never be respected as a skilled labor group, COLLECTIVLY WE HAVE NO NUTS.

Steve, I'm going out on a limb to say there's two problems here.....yes, our union disrespects all members by bamboozling us and working to undermine the our craft. That's our fault for keeping the cancer around. I'm just in amazement that it's very difficult to convince the majority of our craft to get rid of the TWU. Look, there isn't a craft union out there that would argue against the company's credited experience for entry mechanics besides a union strictly looking at dues, and not the quality of talent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but WE don't need anymore bags of SH*TS working around the joint, do we?

I know it's too easy to blame the TWU, but something morally changed within our ranks about how we view our craft and class. The pilots and f/a's also took a beating in 2003, but I don't see the pilots changing there views towards their craft. They still go about there business as professionals. I attribute that quality on the person's attitude towards the profession, more importantly, on how that person was raised.

I view our craft, for the most part, as highly skilled......no question, we have some very talented mechanics, whether it's structures, avionics, or systems....and don't get me wrong I blame the company for not utilizing the talent they have at the bases and line. And, although we took a beating in 2003, and now have gone 3 years of negotiating doesn't mean we just give up on the profession, and allow AA management & TWU members and officials to diminish the craft and class. Because that's exactly what's happened here.
I don't know what expectations AMFA and the Teamsters set for their members, but I'm sure they have expectations. I'm sure the bar is high, and they expect their members to act and work professional. What expectations does the TWU, or AA have our mechanics, besides showing up for work? That's the difference between TWU, AA, AMFA, Teamsters, and Fed Ex.

I asked before.....why is SWA, UPS and Fed EX compelled to pay their mechanics $45-52 per hour. It's not out of the kindness of their hearts, that's for sure. These companies farm out OH, but they don't have to pay their mechanics these high wages....they can follow other carriers and pay what we make $33. So, why can AMFA and Teamsters convince their management to accept these high wages and good benefits, and WE CAN'T? There has to be a reason why?