TWU negotiations.........what?

[Hackman]

Are you guys friggin kidding me about 24/7 coverage for Tulsa, and that members are more concerned with days off than pay and benefits? Give me a break!!! I think this issue should stop before you all look like a bunch of idiots to other airline workers on this forum.

I posted to Bob for one reason only, being any MANAGEMENT proposed 24/7 OH coverage will be an utter joke because MANAGEMENT refuses to force it's engineers, supervisors, managers, support staff, and everyone else needed to run OH like a business, as it does Monday through Friday, requiring THEM to also be here on holidays and weekends like the AMT's. This is why a 24/7 won't be colossal failure, it will be a F'kn UTTER JOKE!!!! Because of that reason alone, no support of the 24/7 mission at hand...if that is the proposed latest concession Centerpork has to have from the twu International bootlickers.

My post was not because I was bitching about working weekends, I already work a lot of weekends for the OT to try and make up for the twu concessions we've had for 8 years, I'm only on my 22nd day in a row today. However, if I want a weekend off I take it, and if 24/7 did come to OH, I will probably not be working any weekends with 20+ years if I choose not to. I also know what it's like on midnights in the -30 blowing snow and wind on the line, did that too. Never did I claim that days off are more important than getting our worthless union to get our concessions back.... plus some......you did. That's just pure idiocy.

Your the one constantly whining about overhaul and what the days off are, or how the line should have a separate contract. Just what The Company and it's toy union want, more division among us. Your playing right into the company/twu game with your sniveling and whining about what OH gets and the Line does not. Pull your panties outta yer crack.

If your so unhappy on the line, I guess you gotta do what others do, bid somewhere else....or STFU.

BTW, I'm not in ASLUT, so who is the idiot....insert that "assume" poem here_________.

Here is a Strikefarce classic; "We already have Line and Overhaul in the contract. Line recieves an additional 55 cents for line pay. That's the only difference!!

The only solution to the OH and Line issue is have a seperate contract. That will only happen if AA farms out OH or sells Tulsa and Tulsa becomes it's own entity."

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm all for 4/10's myself....One less day a week driving (which saves a little bit of gas), One less day a week at work (a biggie for me!) and one more day a week at home with family..(a real biggie.)

And one less unpaid lunch.

 

[Bob Owens]

Are you guys friggin kidding me about 24/7 coverage for Tulsa, and that members are more concerned with days off than pay and benefits?

I dont recall anyone saying that. Its an issue, not the only issue.

 

[strikeforce]

Your playing right into the company/twu game with your sniveling and whining about what OH gets and the Line does not. Pull your your panties outta yer crack.

If your so unhappy on the line, I guess you gotta do what others do, bid somewhere else....or STFU.

BTW, I'm not in ASLUT, so who is the idiot....insert that "assume" poem here_________.

Here is a Strikefarce classic; "We already have Line and Overhaul in the contract. Line recieves an additional 55 cents for line pay. That's the only difference!!

The only solution to the OH and Line issue is have a seperate contract. That will only happen if AA farms out OH or sells Tulsa and Tulsa becomes it's own entity."

You are correct.......these are classic lines, and it's the truth......something you fail to realize!

Just a side note, and something everyone better consider.......WE are an expendable and replaceable workforce, both Line and OH.....AA doesn't have to give US anything....natta....zilch....unless WE are willing to WORK 24/7 or whatever hours the company needs in order to get their planes fixed. When I say WORK......It doesn't mean work on your laptop for 8 hours or sit around and play dominos. It would be to everyone's benefit and provide all of US leverage in negotiations if WE do our jobs, and /or just act a little bit more professional......or WE will give AA an excuse to go out and find other workers to do OUR jobs. Just imagine if this was your company......would you pay 3/4 of the mechanics $40-45 an hour for the work WE give this company? Would you pay some of the gems we have working around us this kind of money? I didn't think so, Hackman!!!!
It would be to everyone's benefit....that we ACT professional and then work like professionals? Then, WE all may just get paid like professionals!!! Maybe, just maybe......AMT's at SWA, UPS, and Fed Ex act professionally, and work like professionals, and the company recognizes this and compensates them accordingly. Did anybody realize this fact?

 

[Interested]

You are correct.......these are classic lines, and it's the truth......something you fail to realize!

Just a side note, and something everyone better consider.......WE are an expendable and replaceable workforce, both Line and OH.....AA doesn't have to give US anything....natta....zilch....unless WE are willing to WORK 24/7 or whatever hours the company needs in order to get their planes fixed. When I say WORK......It doesn't mean work on your laptop for 8 hours or sit around and play dominos. It would be to everyone's benefit and provide all of US leverage in negotiations if WE do our jobs, and /or just act a little bit more professional......or WE will give AA an excuse to go out and find other workers to do OUR jobs. Just imagine if this was your company......would you pay 3/4 of the mechanics $40-45 an hour for the work WE give this company? Would you pay some of the gems we have working around us this kind of money? I didn't think so, Hackman!!!!
It would be to everyone's benefit....that we ACT professional and then work like professionals? Then, WE all may just get paid like professionals!!! Maybe, just maybe......AMT's at SWA, UPS, and Fed Ex act professionally, and work like professionals, and the company recognizes this and compensates them accordingly. Did anybody realize this fact?

Boy oh Boy, when I mentioned something along these lines in another thread, I got flamed for it. That is the best thing we can do --- Do our jobs and do them professionally like the professionals we are supposed to be.

 

[Duke787]

Bob Owens

snip:

"The question is do they really need weekend coverage when they have the option of fully stffing all three shifts on a five day schedule? If all three shifts were fully staffed and they still could not get the planes out then they may have a point, but they dont. To me it seems that they want to use the weekend coverage until they get caought up, avoiding paying OT on the weekends but then what? Having to work weekends without the line premium (company current table position is $2.55) would motivate the younger workers to go to the line where the company is likely to see shortages in the future.

I agree that we all should have weekends off if possible, we know thats not possible with line operations. It should be possible on the bases, and with B-cks on the line. When I worked AAR we had the weekends off. The fact is that was a reason for rejection but my guess is that the money, or lack there of, was the defining reason for all the NO votes. "

While I appreciate your reading my post, and the hard work of representing us as a member of the TWU negotiating team......I said what I meant.....


Duke787

snip:

I can say that bases keeping weekends off and not being labor loaned, is not a strike issue for most line mechs who work weekends and are labor loaned all the time, and if a strike is called (which I doubt/hope doesn't happen) we are going to need to know from the union, what the defining reason we are striking for is.

When I say from "the union" I mean from Jim Little, not someone from this forum or from rumors we hear.


based on the TUL and AFW mechs I've talked to and read on this forum, what I wrote is what I meant.....thank you

 

[Birdman]

Newsflash Strike, the compAAny doesn't want to give us anything now or in the future regardless of our productivity. Bob has mentioned many times how much more productive the workforce is, even due to there being thousands less. The workforce in Tulsa just doesn't seem to care if planes make schedule due to the prolonged negotiation process. Only substantial movement on the compAAny's part will change that.

 

[Bob Owens]

You are correct.......these are classic lines, and it's the truth......something you fail to realize!

Just a side note, and something everyone better consider.......WE are an expendable and replaceable workforce, both Line and OH.....AA doesn't have to give US anything....natta....zilch....unless WE are willing to WORK 24/7 or whatever hours the company needs in order to get their planes fixed. When I say WORK......It doesn't mean work on your laptop for 8 hours or sit around and play dominos. It would be to everyone's benefit and provide all of US leverage in negotiations if WE do our jobs, and /or just act a little bit more professional......or WE will give AA an excuse to go out and find other workers to do OUR jobs. Just imagine if this was your company......would you pay 3/4 of the mechanics $40-45 an hour for the work WE give this company? Would you pay some of the gems we have working around us this kind of money? I didn't think so, Hackman!!!!
It would be to everyone's benefit....that we ACT professional and then work like professionals? Then, WE all may just get paid like professionals!!! Maybe, just maybe......AMT's at SWA, UPS, and Fed Ex act professionally, and work like professionals, and the company recognizes this and compensates them accordingly. Did anybody realize this fact?

Who is the dreamer now? Do you honestly believe that if you work harder under present conditions the company would be willing to just give you more? The fact is they would do the opposite. Why do you think they are dragging their feet? Because people like you seem to think that if you act more "professional" they will pay you more, unfortunately the way they see it if you are still producing enough they are paying you enough. They could care less about your professionalism and to them you are no different that a chock. Why should they pay you more if you've made it clear through your actions that what they are paying you is enough? These people are gamblers, they cant help themselves, they have to see how far they can go before you react. Its their nature.

Show me an example of where your theory of output and reward has panned out at AA and I'll show you the opposite.

Ex 1 STL, had the best performance in the system, how were they rewarded, they shrunk the place down to nothing.
Ex 2 JFK- Our 787 B-ck was flawless for years, always made it out, what did they do? Send it to LAX.
Ex 3 M&R After we got our contract in 2001 OT went to nothing , many workers annual pay was the same as it was prior to the raises because there was no OT. They later came back and gutted our contract.
Ex 4 Working Together, PLI etc. The bases alone met the financial savings objectives of the company, saving over $500 million in recurring savings. The efficiencies gained allowed the company to furlogh even more employees and not call back workers for nearly 8 years. When asked how much value that brought to the table the company replied "ZERO, you still have a job".

So the harder you work only tells the company that you are satisfied with what you are getting now. So keep up the good work of giving the company what they want and blaming Tulsa for you not getting what you say you want.

As far as us being so replacable then tell me why they cant keep NY staffed? They lose them quicker than they can hire them. Thats for M&R and Stores. Why are they paying record amounts of OT across the system? The "act professional " strategy has been tried already, its failed for the last eight years. I would feel like we had a lot more leverage at the table if most of the fleet was on the ground costing money instead of up in the air making money. AA is bringing in around around $5 billion a year more with around 6000 less mechanics, you've nearly doubled your productivity, yet the company doesnt want to come up with squatt. What makes you think that tripling your productivity will all of a sudden change their minds?

 

[Buck]

The workforce in Tulsa just doesn't seem to care if planes make schedule due to the prolonged negotiation process. Only substantial movement on the compAAny's part will change that.

I can only speak for 1D in TULE. The AMT's have become very diligent in their duties. They ensure that they are working from the most current manuals, as they should. There are more non-routines, however a better product is produced. Maybe this helps the line so they don't have to worry about the larger issues and can keep the fleet flying. Either that or the individuals who want weekends off, are just bidding to other docks or shops. 1D has almost been completely replaced. Most of our new AMT's are from the OSM upgrades, STL, AFW or DWH. I think quite a few are former TWA mechanics, but we are happy to have them.

 

[strikeforce]

Who is the dreamer now? Do you honestly believe that if you work harder under present conditions the company would be willing to just give you more? The fact is they would do the opposite. Why do you think they are dragging their feet? Because people like you seem to think that if you act more "professional" they will pay you more, unfortunately the way they see it if you are still producing enough they are paying you enough. They could care less about your professionalism and to them you are no different that a chock. Why should they pay you more if you've made it clear through your actions that what they are paying you is enough? These people are gamblers, they cant help themselves, they have to see how far they can go before you react. Its their nature.

Show me an example of where your theory of output and reward has panned out at AA and I'll show you the opposite.

Ex 1 STL, had the best performance in the system, how were they rewarded, they shrunk the place down to nothing.
Ex 2 JFK- Our 787 B-ck was flawless for years, always made it out, what did they do? Send it to LAX.
Ex 3 M&R After we got our contract in 2001 OT went to nothing , many workers annual pay was the same as it was prior to the raises because there was no OT. They later came back and gutted our contract.
Ex 4 Working Together, PLI etc. The bases alone met the financial savings objectives of the company, saving over $500 million in recurring savings. The efficiencies gained allowed the company to furlogh even more employees and not call back workers for nearly 8 years. When asked how much value that brought to the table the company replied "ZERO, you still have a job".

So the harder you work only tells the company that you are satisfied with what you are getting now. So keep up the good work of giving the company what they want and blaming Tulsa for you not getting what you say you want.

As far as us being so replacable then tell me why they cant keep NY staffed? They lose them quicker than they can hire them. Thats for M&R and Stores. Why are they paying record amounts of OT across the system? The "act professional " strategy has been tried already, its failed for the last eight years. I would feel like we had a lot more leverage at the table if most of the fleet was on the ground costing money instead of up in the air making money. AA is bringing in around around $5 billion a year more with around 6000 less mechanics, you've nearly doubled your productivity, yet the company doesnt want to come up with squatt. What makes you think that tripling your productivity will all of a sudden change their minds?

Bob,
I respect your opinion, and respect your dedication to helping the members, but you are only fooling yourself, and providing false hope to the thousands of members systemwide that rely on your input during negotiations. AA is playing hardball, stalling and playing games with us because we are weak; act like clowns; and provide very little output while doing our jobs. Maybe I'm the only one that recognizes this everytime I go to work, maybe not? I've talked to numerous mechanics that work at SWA, UPS, and Fed Ex, and I'll tell you, these companies would NOT put up with the non-sense that happens at AA, both in management and amt's. Why is it that AA plays games only with the TWU, i.e. Fleet, M&E, Stores, and not with the pilots or f/a's? I don't see AA giving the pilots regressive proposals, do you?
Management is no angels to say the least, but I know we're better than they are, and WE should'nt stoop down to their level. Yes, they mis-manage the place, and waste millions, but the raping that happened in 2003 is OUR fault because WE allowed the union and the company for playing US for idiots.
It is a known fact, and proven in any profession or industry that you are rewarded for the results you provide. It's no pipe dream or something I just made up, and considering that I think your pretty intelligent, I know that you'll agree with that statement. Yes, AA is a different animal, and they don't believe in rewarding for being more productive. Shame on them!! This still doesn't change the fact that WE should act and work more professionally. Maybe the union doesn't want it's members to be more professional, so they too can manipulate and bamboozle the membership into keeping it's allegiance with the TWU. I'm glad that this forum is available to all our members because slowly but surely more members are finding out the real deal regarding the TWU, and how corrupt it really is. I knew they were corrupt, and screwed up back in 2000 when WE both attended the new local conference in DFW.

 

[Overspeed]

Bob,
Your examples are flawed.

In your example 1 you talk about STL being punished yet you have openly discussed that the TWA acquisition was a mistake. STL continues to get work and stay open due to their performance. Could the fact STL continues to stay open as a maintenance facility be because they work well. If purely a business decision shipping the work the work to say LGA would make more sense.

Example 2 you detail the 767 being sent to LAX. Don't airlines shuffle work based on their operations and facility capacity. No station owns the work. It is TWU AA work is it not?

In example 3 you talk about no OT. Greg Hall agreed to not layoff people in exchange that they would not work OT in the hope that union members could work instead of be laid off. The expectation is that the downturn would be short lived. Are you saying we should have laid off thousands so you could get OT?

Example 4 you blame PLI but you incorrectly quote the $500M as recurring. It was not recurring or savings. It was value which could mean anything from a one time cost avoidance to harvesting JT8s off retired MD80s. You need to look at the MIT site. They show AA had less than 15 M&E employees per aircraft in the 1990s compared to over 20 to 1 today. AA had more fleet types then as well.

More productive?

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ----- Strikeforce, there is one word for you, and that is "naive"!-------- Prime example: A base that had one of the highest production reputations in the AA maintenance system.------ Was called on to produce projects TULE didn't want, and produced it "On time"( 767 interior mod.) ----- 737 "C" check operation? ----- Produced all on time, or before, just to have it pulled out from under us!!!( Political move!!) We produced the first 767 winglet mod. prototype!------We produced over half of the 757 winglets, with half the number of AMT's, who's average age exceeded that of TUL's by at least, I suspect, 10 to 15 years, if not more! ( Maybe that was the problem in AA's eyes!) But isn't that "discrimination?"----- Performance means nothing to AA management, only if it complies with their (AA/TWU) overall agenda! ----- shall I continue? Where are we today? (MCIE) :angry: ----- Signed, someone who's been down that road!------ It's a dead end friend!!!

 

[Hackman]

You are correct.......these are classic lines, and it's the truth......something you fail to realize!

Just a side note, and something everyone better consider.......WE are an expendable and replaceable workforce, both Line and OH.....AA doesn't have to give US anything....natta....zilch....unless WE are willing to WORK 24/7 or whatever hours the company needs in order to get their planes fixed. When I say WORK......It doesn't mean work on your laptop for 8 hours or sit around and play dominos. It would be to everyone's benefit and provide all of US leverage in negotiations if WE do our jobs, and /or just act a little bit more professional......or WE will give AA an excuse to go out and find other workers to do OUR jobs. Just imagine if this was your company......would you pay 3/4 of the mechanics $40-45 an hour for the work WE give this company? Would you pay some of the gems we have working around us this kind of money? I didn't think so, Hackman!!!!
It would be to everyone's benefit....that we ACT professional and then work like professionals? Then, WE all may just get paid like professionals!!! Maybe, just maybe......AMT's at SWA, UPS, and Fed Ex act professionally, and work like professionals, and the company recognizes this and compensates them accordingly. Did anybody realize this fact?

Something I fail to realize? What is that? Starching my uniform and spit shinning my boots so my management "friends" will say; "Gee.... now there goes that AA supercharger, that ultra "professional" mechanic, I think we SHALL give him industry leading pay raise right away after the Knighting ceremony !!!!" OR..... "Golly gee boss, I did that whole B check all by my little "professional" self in one shift, and see how "professional" I am?" "I really worked my ass off here, do ya see how good I am???? My shiny boots are so awesome" JEEZUS.... " Hey bossman, can you send this here AMT Glamor Shot photo to hang on the wall at Centerpork so when Jeff "the brick" Brundage walks by, he knows me as that "AMT Professional"??? YEP, that's Strikefarce..... "Please Mr. Brundage, can I have a industry leading contract because I'm so "professional"??? I'm not really a brick in AA's backpack as you said we are, (at least not me, it's those other guys maybe) and we work really hard!!!! (well...at least I do Mr. B, it's those OTHER guys that really suck, trust me.)

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!!!!!!! You must really think your the ssshhit..... I bet your the man.

Are you a former Cheech and Chong stunt double!!!???

Fact is management could give g-damn about how "professional" you are or how much you bust ass, and you call others here idiots. How long does that take to sink in?

Sounds to me let you had better stock up on some AA kneepads soon Strike....your gonna be busy.

I myself, just follow management's lead, when they hire professionals in management that know how to run an airline, then I will follow their lead and be a real professional too . It is lead by example, after all???

I'm just a brick in AA's backpack, so I will act accordingly until I am shown something different by my AA management leaders. Which I highly doubt will happen before I retire, but miracles do happen..... I just have to keep dreAAming. :blink:

 

[strikeforce]

Something I fail to realize? What is that? Starching my uniform and spit shinning my boots so my management "friends" will say; "Gee.... now there goes that AA supercharger, that ultra "professional" mechanic, I think we SHALL give him industry leading pay raise right away after the Knighting ceremony !!!!" OR..... "Golly gee boss, I did that whole B check all by my little "professional" self in one shift, and see how "professional" I am?" "I really worked my ass of here, do ya see how good I am???? My shiny boots are so awesome" JEEZUS.... " Hey bossman, can you send this here AMT Glamor Shot photo to hang on the wall at Centerpork so when Jeff "the brick" Brundage walks by, he knows me as that "AMT Professional"??? YEP, that's Strikefarce..... "Please Mr. Brundage, can I have a industry leading contract because I'm so "professional"??? I'm not really a brick in AA's backpack as you said we are, (at least not me, it's those other guys maybe) and we work really hard!!!! (well...at least I do Mr. B, it's those OTHER guys that really suck, trust me.)

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!!!!!!! You must really think your the ssshhit..... I bet your the man.

Are you a former Cheech and Chong stunt double!!!???

Fact is management could give g-damn about how "professional" you are or how much you bust ass, and you call others here idiots. How long does that take to sink in?

Sounds to me let you had better stock up on some AA kneepads soon Strike....your gonna be busy.

I myself, just follow management's lead, when they hire professionals in management that know how to run an airline, then I will follow their lead and be a real professional too . It is lead by example, after all???

I'm just a brick in AA's backpack, so I will act accordingly until I am shown something different by my AA management leaders. Which I highly doubt will happen before I retire, but miracles do happen..... I just have to keep dreAAming. :blink:

Then you can keep dreaming that management will give you anything anytime soon. Just keep waiting month after month, and hope your lovely, do nothing, union will come to your rescue and get you everything you want......keep dreaming Hackman!!!!! If you think AA will just change their negotiation tactic and suddenly feel sorry for you hackman....keep dreaming, ain't gonna happen. You can whine about my comments on this forum.......I really don't give a rat's ass, because I'm not the moneyman you have to convince whether you deserve weekend premium, geo pay or 24/7 coverage ......you have to convince AA that WE all deserve the money we're asking for. So far Bob Owens and company haven't been able to convince AA that we deserve anything, but regressive contracts. That's what AA believes WE are worth.....regressive and concessionary, and why is that, hackman? Is it that AA doesn't believe their getting the bang for the buck? Why are they playing these games with US, hackman????? come on, it seems you have all the answers???? What's the end game, here? Strike? Yellow Dog contract with a lockout? maybe Bob Owens knows???? I mean, Bob Owens can't even convince the NMB that you've been getting raped, let alone that you deserve a raise......scratch that.....it's not a raise.....it's getting something back that was stolen from you and me.
It's gotten so bad around here that Bob Owens has just finally realized that the TWU Intl is corrupt and working against him. Wow, breaking news......Bob Gless and Co. working against the membership.....what a surprise? And, We still can't convince the yahoo's in Tulsa that the TWU needs to go. And people call me the idiot????
Like I said before.....it's not rocket science. You want to get paid like a professional......the first thing you need is NADS.....then a union that has good labor-management relations......members that act and work professional......workers that provide the customer (AA) the bang for the buck.......you might just get what you deserve, hackman?

 

[Hackman]

Then you can keep dreaming that management will give you anything anytime soon. Just keep waiting month after month, and hope your lovely, do nothing, union will come to your rescue and get you everything you want......keep dreaming Hackman!!!!! If you think AA will just change their negotiation tactic and suddenly feel sorry for you hackman....keep dreaming, ain't gonna happen. You can whine about my comments on this forum.......I really don't give a rat's ass, because I'm not the moneyman you have to convince whether you deserve weekend premium, geo pay or 24/7 coverage ......you have to convince AA that WE all deserve the money we're asking for. So far Bob Owens and company haven't been able to convince AA that we deserve anything, but regressive contracts. That's what AA believes WE are worth.....regressive and concessionary, and why is that, hackman? Is it that AA doesn't believe their getting the bang for the buck? Why are they playing these games with US, hackman????? come on, it seems you have all the answers???? What's the end game, here? Strike? Yellow Dog contract with a lockout? maybe Bob Owens knows???? I mean, Bob Owens can't even convince the NMB that you've been getting raped, let alone that you deserve a raise......scratch that.....it's not a raise.....it's getting something back that was stolen from you and me.
It's gotten so bad around here that Bob Owens has just finally realized that the TWU Intl is corrupt and working against him. Wow, breaking news......Bob Gless and Co. working against the membership.....what a surprise? And, We still can't convince the yahoo's in Tulsa that the TWU needs to go. And people call me the idiot????
Like I said before.....it's not rocket science. You want to get paid like a professional......the first thing you need is NADS.....then a union that has good labor-management relations......members that act and work professional......workers that provide the customer (AA) the bang for the buck.......you might just get what you deserve, hackman?

Dunno, did I type too fast for you? I guess you can't tell I was being facetious (means not serious) in my post with the dreAAming and the little :blink: at the end. Hard to understand for a "professional" such as you I surmise.

Your the one that likes to continously disparage your coworkers and claim that AA has nothing but fools with tools, and of course your not included with any of that riff-raff...being your a "professional" and all. I am sure you go straight to work upon hitting the clock and no time is wasted by a "professional" such as yourself. I have seen this before, with people of a narcissistic attitude you display here. I guess if AA isn't getting the "bang for the buck" as you claim, it's time to shut the doors, dial up Wang Chung Aerospace and get those 600 flying beer cans over the pond so they are done right. Not much us "non-professionals" can do about that.

The rest of your idiotic post about NADS, good labor-management relations (WTF would you call the twu company unions 25 years of concessions?) and more "professional" garbage is more than I can stand.

Therefore I'm done addressing you, waste of my time....good day.